Is religion obsolete?

Run_to_da_hills · 24-12-2008 08:50AM

I would consider organised religion as obsolete.

kelly1 · 24-12-2008 12:38PM

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

surley you mean Astronomy, not astrology?

Surely you mean surely, not surley

Zombrex · 24-12-2008 12:55PM

kelly1 wrote: »

Surely you mean surely, not surley

don't call him surley :pac:

kelly1 · 24-12-2008 01:17PM

MatthewVII wrote: »

1) Religion was used as a way to explain phenomena. We now have science for that

2) Religion and the prospect of damnation for sins was a pseudo-threat of punishment for crimes, misdeeds etc. Now we have laws and law enforcement to carry this out

3) Religion was used as a way of explaining why man is on earth and man's place in the cosmos. Biology and astrology can explain both our origins and the nature of the universe at large

Currently, the only purpose religion serves is as a moral compass or guide, which I believe need not be enshrined in a formal tenet as they are basic ways of being a good person which all people should learn as they grow up without need for organised religion. Respect and caring for your fellow man is a social evolutionary mechanism which came about in early society from the observation that together, societies are stronger, not from ethereal forces commanding us to behave so.

With that, I believe the modern concept of religion no longer is necessary for a healthy society, and years of adherence to strict scriptures may have caused portions of society to become maladaptive and narrow (read: homophobia, secularism, disillusionment)

Any thoughts?

MatthewVII wrote: »

Any thoughts?

You whole argument is based on your belief that God doesn't exist which is really a rather big assumption.

There's nothing to stop you acting as though God doesn't exist. But doesn't make any difference to the question of God's existence. People always have and always will try to build a societies without God.

*IF* you beleive there's no life after death, then God becomes largely irrelevant. If on the other hand our whole purpose in life is to love God (and neighbour) in order to become what we are destined to be, then God becomes central.

Christianity explains the purpose of human life on this planet and is far far more satisfying than the meaninglessness proposed by atheism.

Christianity is far more than a set of moral guidelines. It gives meaning to all aspects of life, including suffering. It explains why we humans behave so shamefully and what we can to do to be restored to God's friendship. It tells us that every good deed we do will be rewarded and that those who remain faithful to God's laws will be rewarded with everlasting, joyful life. Christ promised that He had conquered sin and evil once and for all and that the faithful will be crowned victorious with Him at the end of the world when everyone will be judged according to their love of God and neighbour.

Contrast that with what atheism has to offer.

MatthewVII · 24-12-2008 01:36PM

kelly1 wrote:

Contrast that with what atheism has to offer.

I don't believe based on what makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I think people should believe what makes sense to them, and not just believe in it because it gives them an answer they want to hear. For example, I believe that when I die, my consciousness will cease to exist and my body will decay somewhere and that will be it. It won't matter what happens as I will never be able to experience anything. I don't believe that I should let fear of judgement by a higher power prevent me from living a life that is fulfilling to me as opposed to fearing angering someone. That doesn't mean I think what you believe is wrong but you make it sound like you believe in it just because it seems to be a nicer thing to believe than the alternative. That doesn't seem a strong foundation to a belief system to be honest.

towel401 · 24-12-2008 01:39PM

Another 'Christianity justification thread' in the 'christianity justification forum'

MatthewVII · 24-12-2008 01:45PM

towel401 wrote: »

Another 'Christianity justification thread' in the 'christianity justification forum'

A healthy religion is one in which people challenge belief instead of accepting it without question

Zombrex · 24-12-2008 01:46PM

towel401 wrote: »

Another 'Christianity justification thread' in the 'christianity justification forum'

The A&A forum is closed for Christmas ... :pac:

kelly1 · 24-12-2008 02:14PM

MatthewVII wrote: »

I don't believe based on what makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Neither do I. If I did, I'd probably be into Yoga or similar.

MatthewVII wrote: »

That doesn't seem a strong foundation to a belief system to be honest.

You're right, it's not. Fortunately I have lots of sound reasons to believe Jesus is who He says He is.

Húrin · 24-12-2008 04:46PM

MatthewVII wrote: »

I don't believe based on what makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

kelly1 wrote: »

Neither do I. If I did, I'd probably be into Yoga or similar.

I can see where this is going. There are numerous threads along the same lines which you are welcome to read and participate in. As far as I can tell, this thread is about the social effects of organised religion, not justifying the theology of the Christian version of it.

If every thread on this forum was the same, it would be much the poorer. (as towel401 pointed out!)

PDN · 24-12-2008 07:52PM

Back to the OP.

It was presented as if religion exists purely for the benefits it confers on society. And from an atheist perspective that is a valid point of view.

However, we are on the Christianity forum. So, if we accept the possibility of God's existence, religion serves to either reveal (in the case of good religion) or to obscure (in the case of bad religion) the truth about God and His purposes for humanity.

CDfm · 24-12-2008 08:05PM

MatthewVII wrote: »

I don't believe based on what makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I think people should believe what makes sense to them, and not just believe in it because it gives them an answer they want to hear. For example, I believe that when I die, my consciousness will cease to exist and my body will decay somewhere and that will be it. It won't matter what happens as I will never be able to experience anything. I don't believe that I should let fear of judgement by a higher power prevent me from living a life that is fulfilling to me as opposed to fearing angering someone. That doesn't mean I think what you believe is wrong but you make it sound like you believe in it just because it seems to be a nicer thing to believe than the alternative. That doesn't seem a strong foundation to a belief system to be honest.

Well you believe things you see and read.

AS Christians we believe that what we see and read makes us better people.

That we dont look at things your way is ok. The christian way is not always warm and fuzzy -sometimes its extremely hard.

Its a big copeout by non -believers ,agnostics and atheists that the only people with gay predjudice and opposition to abortion are Catholics.It just aint so.Yet you cant explain it.

I often see some making poor judgements because of what may call the lack of a moral compass. Existentialists (those who follow existentialist philosophy and are atheist) discuss this dilemma.Sartre, Camus and de Beuvoir were great thinkers and they had problems with the issue.

Shacklebolt · 26-12-2008 12:25AM

Biro wrote: »

If you think that humanity would be any more or less diverse in its range of psychopaths, narrowminded people, voilent people, deranged people etc without any religion in human history then you'd be mistaken.

'Bad people will do bad things and good people good things, but only religion seems capable of making good people do the most horrific of things'. Cant remember the person who originally said that.

xxmarymoxx · 26-12-2008 12:48AM

the older generation had no choice only to belive in god as it was beat into them by priests and nuns at school how sick is that the catholic church is a joke but at least now we have a choice and can say to a priest i dont or never did belive in god and im not afraid to say it people go to church the church taker there money kids today have nothing to fear you wont get some pervert priest bangin the door wanting to no why u were not at mass and u will burn in hell if u dont go

Fanny Cradock · 26-12-2008 01:01AM

Rather unsurprisingly, a term like 'pervert priests' is unacceptable here. Please read the charter and enjoy the rest of your Christmas.

xxmarymoxx · 26-12-2008 01:13AM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Rather unsurprisingly, a term like 'pervert priests' is unacceptable here. Please read the charter and enjoy the rest of your Christmas.

how is the truth unacceptable its a known fact not all priests but some

Fanny Cradock · 26-12-2008 02:35AM

Yes, it may be a known fact that a minority of priests are paedophiles, but then again, so are a minority of Irish men, a minority of American women, a minority of agnostics, a minority of left-handed people, a minority of teachers and a minority of those with grey hair.

While you are perfectly entitled to your opinion on this forum, it must stay within the boundaries of the charter. Given that your previous post was nothing other than an attempt to paint a ghastly caricature of Catholicism and priests, I'm asking you nicely to cork off some of that bile.

Thanks

xxmarymoxx · 26-12-2008 11:38AM

ok no worries

Cantab. · 26-12-2008 02:59PM

MatthewVII wrote: »

So before anyone assaults me about what I'm thinking, just hear me out.

Just to clarify, I'm a former Catholic (by birth, not by choice) and now an atheist

So what I was thinking, I can see how religion was a necessary institution in the past, but it's functions have largely been replaced.

1) Religion was used as a way to explain phenomena. We now have science for that

Rubbish. Science is not a replacement for religion.

MatthewVII wrote: »

2) Religion and the prospect of damnation for sins was a pseudo-threat of punishment for crimes, misdeeds etc. Now we have laws and law enforcement to carry this out

Rubbish. Just because something is "legal" doesn't mean it's right. For example: prostitution and abortion.

MatthewVII wrote: »

3) Religion was used as a way of explaining why man is on earth and man's place in the cosmos.

A very bold statement from someone who claims to know better than the Catholic Church.

MatthewVII wrote: »

Biology and astrology can explain both our origins and the nature of the universe at large

Surely you must be having a laugh? Biology is a gift from God -- a gift that enables man to make use of his surroundings for the betterment of all, whilst getting profound insight into the beauty of the universe. Astrology is the work of the devil AFAIC.

MatthewVII wrote: »

Currently, the only purpose religion serves is as a moral compass or guide, which I believe need not be enshrined in a formal tenet as they are basic ways of being a good person which all people should learn as they grow up without need for organised religion.

Being a "good person" (whatever that means when you declare there's no need for a moral authority!) is only a half truth. How about we just let everyone decide their own moral authority and sit back and watch as the devil takes over and anarchy ensues?

MatthewVII wrote: »

Respect and caring for your fellow man is a social evolutionary mechanism which came about in early society from the observation that together, societies are stronger, not from ethereal forces commanding us to behave so.

Respect and caring for your fellow man is infinitely times more than some "evolutionary mechanism" (whatever that means). I would argue that society is much, much weaker as a result of evil infiltrating every aspect of our community. We need God to protect us from this.

MatthewVII wrote: »

With that, I believe the modern concept of religion no longer is necessary for a healthy society, and years of adherence to strict scriptures may have caused portions of society to become maladaptive and narrow (read: homophobia, secularism, disillusionment)

Without belief in God, there is no point in living as far as I'm concerned. God created man in His likeness and has given us a clear framework for the family, the community and society as a whole. This is how we should live -- not according to some popularist fad or the whims of the day. Relativism and the "individual knows best" are today, the greatest threats to Christianity and the way God wants us to live.

Simpleton analysis of the meaning of live and a shallow perspective on history, philosophy, science and theology just does not cut it. Unless of course you're happy to live your life in ignorant bliss. Purposely avoiding the hard questions does not lead to happiness in its truest sense.

toiletduck · 26-12-2008 03:22PM

Cantab. wrote: »

Without belief in God, there is no point in living as far as I'm concerned.

No matter how many times I see this pop up, I'm always amazed

Cantab. · 26-12-2008 03:27PM

toiletduck wrote: »

No matter how many times I see this pop up, I'm always amazed

I'm sure you're one of the "christmas is all about the family"/"christmas is for children" half-truth brigade?

There's an infinitely deeper love, an infinitely deeper meaning -- the celebration of the birth of Jesus, the saviour of all of mankind.

Without this love, life is a very cold and shallow place where the individual takes pride of place: A perfect environment for the deadly sins to take over and enslave the individual.

toiletduck · 26-12-2008 03:36PM

Cantab. wrote: »

I'm sure you're one of the "christmas is all about the family"/"christmas is for children" half-truth brigade?

There's an infinitely deeper love, an infinitely deeper meaning -- the celebration of the birth of Jesus, the saviour of all of mankind.

I'm an atheist if that's what you want to know.

Without this love, life is a very cold and shallow place where the individual takes pride of place

How do you know?

Ah I was just commenting on that, I find it really sad tbh. I'm sure your religion is important to you but to see no point in living if that were absent, well what can I say.

Cantab. · 26-12-2008 03:53PM

The fact is that Jesus walked the earth 2000 years ago and if you refuse to acknowledge this fact, then that's your prerogative.

Maybe you've been watching too many Hollywood films or reading too much Sunday Independent for your own good?

And to be quite honest, I'd have more respect for a Muslim or a Buddhist than an arrogant atheist who's been drawn into an "I know best" mindset. Chances are you were brought up as a Christian and have declared yourself atheist, breaking the hereditary tradition in the process?

I'm sure you can find lots of like-minded atheists over on the atheism forum without polluting the so-called Christianity forum.

Religion is far from "obsolete".

toiletduck · 26-12-2008 04:01PM

Cantab. wrote: »

I'm sure you can find lots of like-minded atheists over on the atheism forum without polluting the so-called Christianity forum.

How very Christian of you.

Maybe you've been watching too many Hollywood films or reading too much Sunday Independent for your own good?

Yeah that's me, praying for a month of Sundays :pac:

OP wrote:

Is religion obsolete?

That would imply that it must 'serve' some function. I'm sure many around here would see that as being revealing the truth to people, and that's fair enough.

Húrin · 26-12-2008 04:41PM

Cantab. wrote: »

I'm sure you can find lots of like-minded atheists over on the atheism forum without polluting the so-called Christianity forum.

Religion is far from "obsolete".

Calm down. All members of boards.ie are welcome to post in the Christianity forum.

Fanny Cradock · 26-12-2008 04:47PM

Húrin wrote: »

Calm down. All members of boards.ie are welcome to post in the Christianity forum.

Yes, Cantab. as you should well know by now. Please play nice.

apoch632 · 26-12-2008 05:31PM

Cantab, what does hereditary tradition have to do with religion. If one is only a christian (or atheist for that matter) because their parents and grandparents were it doesn't seem to be much different than people who vote FF or FG because their parents did. Its a stupid reason to either believe or not believe.

Húrin · 26-12-2008 05:46PM

apoch632 wrote: »

Cantab, what does hereditary tradition have to do with religion. If one is only a christian (or atheist for that matter) because their parents and grandparents were it doesn't seem to be much different than people who vote FF or FG because their parents did. Its a stupid reason to either believe or not believe.

Indeed, "you must be born again", I think you know the Bible reference as displayed ad nauseum at GAA matches!

I suspect that Cantab may not be talking about individual faith but in the deChristianisation of culture, which does have implications for public life as it is a threat to the moral consensus.

MatthewVII · 27-12-2008 02:11AM

Cantab. wrote: »

Rubbish. Science is not a replacement for religion.

I'm not saying it's a replacement, I'm saying it fulfills one of its roles. And don't be so hostile and dismissive of others, I'm pretty sure god would think that sinful.

Cantab. wrote: »

A very bold statement from someone who claims to know better than the Catholic Church.

I never said I know better than the catholic church, what i claim is that I think different. Since we're all just humans, we are all equals, each entitled to our own opinions and the freedom to express those. Just because the catholic church is an established institution does not mean it is in any way less questionable than any other person or institution (see scientology)

Cantab. wrote: »

Surely you must be having a laugh? Biology is a gift from God -- a gift that enables man to make use of his surroundings for the betterment of all, whilst getting profound insight into the beauty of the universe. Astrology is the work of the devil AFAIC.

Biology is a gift from god? Biology is an abstract concept. It's just there, constantly reshaping and reorganising to equilibrium when it is disturbed, not a gift or tool for betterment. Man has no claim or reign over it, as we are part of it, like plankton floating in a sea. The astrology/astronomy mixup has been discussed earlier.

Cantab. wrote: »

Being a "good person" (whatever that means when you declare there's no need for a moral authority!) is only a half truth. How about we just let everyone decide their own moral authority and sit back and watch as the devil takes over and anarchy ensues?

People have mentioned already on this thread the existence of a "moral compass". Order can be upheld by law instead of by religious influences. The family can take over the role of instruction on proper conduct, morals etc. I believe that right and wrong should be decided by the courts instead of by religion, although for the most part, right and wrong have pretty much the same concepts in both. However, a flexible code open to change and review is better than rigid and outdated standing orders of laws which do not cater for a changing society.

Cantab. wrote: »

Respect and caring for your fellow man is infinitely times more than some "evolutionary mechanism" (whatever that means). I would argue that society is much, much weaker as a result of evil infiltrating every aspect of our community. We need God to protect us from this.

A social evolutionary mechanism is how society changed from a group of people working as individuals to a group of people working as one, and realising that it was in one's own interest to help others to strengthen the society. Another facet of this is society sanctioning against those who do not adhere to these principles. Hence society is capable of cleansing itself, as a strong, moral unit capable of making decisions and adapting to "evil infiltrating". Suggesting that god protect us is a passive method, which, although it may bring benefits, is not a concrete and decisive means of action

Cantab. wrote: »

Without belief in God, there is no point in living as far as I'm concerned. God created man in His likeness and has given us a clear framework for the family, the community and society as a whole. This is how we should live -- not according to some popularist fad or the whims of the day. Relativism and the "individual knows best" are today, the greatest threats to Christianity and the way God wants us to live.

I'm not saying that we should live by fads. I'm saying society is constantly changing, eg more women having careers, family size decreasing etc and that traditional religious teachings are not changing with it. This is supported (but in no means proved, the actual aetiology is much more complex) by dropping numbers of church attendances, which isn't caused by evil infiltrating society, rather a change in how society views religion as an integral part of life. Change isn't a bad thing, it's how society survives.

Cantab. wrote: »

Simpleton analysis of the meaning of live and a shallow perspective on history, philosophy, science and theology just does not cut it. Unless of course you're happy to live your life in ignorant bliss. Purposely avoiding the hard questions does not lead to happiness in its truest sense.

Purposely avoiding hard questions? I stated earlier I am an atheist. That means i have already gone through the hard questions and come to conclusions that I am just a body, born through an inbuilt need for the human race to reproduce, that I will live out my lifespan and die, rotting in the ground or wherever they put me. I believe life has no more meaning than the progression of the species to an end which is ultimately without purpose and that no external force has any power over me greater than the hold of physics and random chance. I believe religion is obsolete in modern society for myriad reasons i've already detailed, however I thought a casual message board an inappropriate medium for my thesis on why I think religion is past its prime

Obviously one cannot attempt to have so complete a grasp of all of these concepts as yourself, however I do have the common sense to avoid putting down my peers in so crude and arrogant a fashion, particularly when your counterarguments sound so ridiculous considering you address an atheist

jill_valentine · 27-12-2008 02:30AM

Hmm. Don't want to leap headfirst into this argument again, but this caught my eye because it comes up a lot.

This:

Cantab. wrote: »

Without belief in God, there is no point in living as far as I'm concerned.

People keep saying it in these conversations, and it always makes me wince, because it's one of the saddest things I've ever heard. I don't mean that in a patronising "I'm sad you can't see THE LIGHT!" kind of way - it just speaks to me of a really profound despair in all other things, that somebody would say that about anything.

Is religion obsolete?

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