Ireland could be energy independent in under a decade

probe · 03-12-2008 02:38PM #1

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1203/1228234992689.html

IRELAND COULD become energy independent in less than a decade using nothing more than wind and hydro power. The technology already exists, the only thing missing is a commitment from Government, according to a Trinity College Dublin scientist.

Prof Igor Shvets outlined how we could break our addiction to oil, end costly imports and become world leaders in renewable technologies in a public talk yesterday in Dublin entitled, Intelligent Energy Options for the Future.

He also believes that pursuing such a course could help reverse the recession by diverting idle building contractors into energy- related construction projects.

Ireland faces a bleak energy future if it fails to act, according to Prof Shvets who is head of Trinity's applied physics research group. We already spend €6 billion a year on energy imports, but our energy worries would end if we moved decisively towards renewable energy options, he said.

Our daily electricity demand can peak at 2.5 billion watts but typically runs at about 1.5 billion watts. We would need no more than four large wind farms, each about 10 kilometres square, to meet all our daily electricity demand, he told his audience in Trinity's McNeill Lecture Theatre.

A greater challenge was to adjust electricity production to meet fluctuations in daily demand, for example during the 4pm to 9pm peak when usage rises sharply. The system must also cope with periods when the wind was slack and electricity production declined, Prof Shvets said.

These peaks and troughs were easily met using pumped storage hydro-electricity production, such as already exists at the ESB's Turlough Hill hydro plant. Water is pumped from a lower reservoir to a higher one at night using off peak electricity. The water is then run back down a pipe through a turbine to produce extra electricity at times of peak demand.

Bath County, Virginia has the largest such plant in the world, capable of producing 2.1 billion watts of electricity, he said. Just one such plant, based on a single artificial lake 20km square and 20 metres deep and 250 metres above sea level, would be needed to produce two billion watts and supply our national electricity requirement, he said. "It is not easy to find a 20km by 20km site but we found plenty if the lake was 750 metres by 750 metres.".

His research group found 30 possible sites for lakes of 500 metre square, dotted along our western seaboard. Developing just 10 of these would easily meet energy peaks and bridge across days with little wind, he said.

The Bath County plant cost €1.3 billion 20 years ago, but Prof Shvets believes costs here would be lower. Only one lake per plant was needed if located within a few kilometres of the sea. Even if costs were comparable this was still less than four months of oil imports.

derry · 04-12-2008 03:01PM

probe wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1203/1228234992689.html

IRELAND COULD become energy independent in less than a decade
...snip...
Ireland faces a bleak energy future if it fails to act, according to Prof Shvets who is head of Trinity's applied physics research group. We already spend €6 billion a year on energy imports, but our energy worries would end if we moved decisively towards renewable energy options, he said.
....snip...

Now when it comes to a choice from the regime in power to choose from a nice little earner like oil or some egg head in some college who you think is gonna win

€6 billion reasons exist to keep the status quo. Even if it cost the oil and energy companies gas coal companies €1 billion to keep the regime suitably enamoured in oil and fosil fuels with kick backs and under the table slush funds and cushy positions on oil and energy companies board of directors after retirement oil and energy companies will still profit to €5 billion .

So unless the egg heads figure a way to match the slush funds that €6 billion of oil and energy imports can fight with then all the tecky solutions are a waste of time trying to get past the kickback brigade

Forget the greens they are puppets in this regime of kick back grabbers who barely get the FF to get a small subsidy to have bikes to cycle to work.

Yes Ireland can supply also the fuel to drive all the cars and trucks with bio fuels using less fertile land which is not used presently and without even using any of the 1/3rd out of the very fertile land which is kept out from farming because EU pays for the land to do nothing .

So seeing as we cant buy bio Deisel at the garage and only a handful of garages sell bio petrol E85 then it is clear proof the kickbacker accepters who run the Regime will ensure this new plan will be lost in a sea of slush funds from the oil and energy companies who stand to lose €6 billion sales

Derry

probe · 04-12-2008 05:52PM

derry wrote: »

Now when it comes to a choice from the regime in power to choose from a nice little earner like oil or some egg head in some college who you think is gonna win

€6 billion reasons exist to keep the status quo. Even if it cost the oil and energy companies gas coal companies €1 billion to keep the regime suitably enamoured in oil and fosil fuels with kick backs and under the table slush funds and cushy positions on oil and energy companies board of directors after retirement oil and energy companies will still profit to €5 billion .

So unless the egg heads figure a way to match the slush funds that €6 billion of oil and energy imports can fight with then all the tecky solutions are a waste of time trying to get past the kickback brigade

Forget the greens they are puppets in this regime of kick back grabbers who barely get the FF to get a small subsidy to have bikes to cycle to work.

Yes Ireland can supply also the fuel to drive all the cars and trucks with bio fuels using less fertile land which is not used presently and without even using any of the 1/3rd out of the very fertile land which is kept out from farming because EU pays for the land to do nothing .

So seeing as we cant buy bio Deisel at the garage and only a handful of garages sell bio petrol E85 then it is clear proof the kickbacker accepters who run the Regime will ensure this new plan will be lost in a sea of slush funds from the oil and energy companies who stand to lose €6 billion sales

I don't totally share your cynicism. Most of the €6 billion paid out on energy imports is going to the oil producing countries, countries that know far better than anyone else how much product they think they have in the ground. I doubt if they are engaged in paying kick backs to hold on to market share for a product whose supply is in decline. A product that sells itself, all too easily, unfortunately. NYMEX light sweet crude (CL) is down to $45.55 as I write this - and it could fall to the $30s - but when the global economy recovers and demand picks up, chances are it will be heading for $200. Countries that haven't modernise their energy / transport infrastructure away from oil will be at a severe competitive disadvantage.

Countries in Europe add high taxes to the oil price, and they will be forced to address the decline in oil reserves and its wide impact on their economies sooner or later. Ireland is in a better position to manage the transition from a green energy availability perspective than many others.

The challenge is to engineer a plan to reduce the €6 billion annual import bill by transitioning energy consumers to use renewable sources - some or most of the import cost savings will probably have to be diverted into taxes, to replace the tax revenue on hydrocarbons.

The recently announced €1 million of government funding for green transport innovation is alarming in its modesty in the context of what needs to be done.

Current bio fuel technologies are a non-starter for Ireland, except for small scale use. The energy consumed and land resources used to produce bio fuel crops greatly exceeds the energy delivered.

ART6 · 04-12-2008 06:08PM

probe wrote: »

I don't totally share your cynicism. .

I do share derry's cynicism. In the present (and probable long term) economic climate in Ireland, can we really believe that government has any incentive at all to get us away from fossil fuels that they can hammer with duty and then VAT on top. We are dealing with politicians here, not reasonable people. There is an enormous amount we could do to reduce our imports of energy, and biofuels and wind power etc etc are just a small part of that, but the real long term answer has to be nuclear surely? Then, when at some distant future, we all drive electric cars and have hydro, wind, bio and nuclear energy instead of fossil, we can expect some really inventive tax systems to be imposed.

* Note....Not a rant...more a resigned sigh..*

probe · 04-12-2008 07:05PM

ART6 wrote: »

I do share derry's cynicism. In the present (and probable long term) economic climate in Ireland, can we really believe that government has any incentive at all to get us away from fossil fuels that they can hammer with duty and then VAT on top. We are dealing with politicians here, not reasonable people. There is an enormous amount we could do to reduce our imports of energy, and biofuels and wind power etc etc are just a small part of that, but the real long term answer has to be nuclear surely? Then, when at some distant future, we all drive electric cars and have hydro, wind, bio and nuclear energy instead of fossil, we can expect some really inventive tax systems to be imposed.

* Note....Not a rant...more a resigned sigh..*

The €6 billion import bill for oil is basically "tax" paid to (mainly) Middle Eastern governments - most of the oil reserves are now under the control of national oil companies, rather than the independents.

So I'm basically saying that the €6 billion in tax could instead be taken in stages by the Irish government, part of which would have to be used to help develop a green energy sustainable infrastructure. As oil prices rise, this potential revenue base rises in tandem.

Nuclear is a non-starter for Ireland. It is the most NIMBYphobic country in Europe. The standards of engineering and construction are appalling. I have yet to see a well designed urinal in a public toilet in Ireland - one that ensures that there isn't a mess on the floor. A country with an engineering and architectural industry that is incapable of specifying functional urinals is extremely unlikely to be able to host a safe nuclear power plant!

Nuclear is the only non renewable energy source. Oil and gas reserves will last longer than economically usable uranium supplies - of which there is probably only 40 years remaining. And if you wait another 2 million or so years, no doubt new oil wells will emerge on the planet that don't exist today!

bonkey · 04-12-2008 07:25PM

probe wrote: »

Nuclear is a non-starter for Ireland. It is the most NIMBYphobic country in Europe. The standards of engineering and construction are appalling. I have yet to see a well designed urinal in a public toilet in Ireland - one that ensures that there isn't a mess on the floor. A country with an engineering and architectural industry that is incapable of specifying functional urinals is extremely unlikely to be able to host a safe nuclear power plant!

While I agree with your point about NIMBYism, I would suggest that comparing irish power stations and heavy industry plants to a nuclear station might be somehwat more accurate than public urinals.

Nuclear is the only non renewable energy source. Oil and gas reserves will last longer than economically usable uranium supplies - of which there is probably only 40 years remaining.

Spoken like a true anti-nuke.

old boy · 04-12-2008 07:38PM

unless a way can be found to make the clowns that are elected to govern our country an endangered species forget any ideas of change

probe · 04-12-2008 09:23PM

bonkey wrote: »

While I agree with your point about NIMBYism, I would suggest that comparing irish power stations and heavy industry plants to a nuclear station might be somehwat more accurate than public urinals.

Male mankind has had a need for urinals for a good few years. They are pretty basic engineering stuff in any society. As a Swiss boy you will know what a good urinal looks like - Swiss public toilets are ***** when it comes to functional design. It is not just public toilets - every aspect of construction engineering in Ireland is appallingly mediocre. Flimsy window systems that provide poor insulation, apartment buildings that offer little or no fireproofing to each apartment unit, poor insulation standards even on new buildings.

What hope a society that can't see the design need for decent urinals being capable of ordering, building and running a safe nuclear power plant?

probe · 04-12-2008 09:42PM

old boy wrote: »

unless a way can be found to make the clowns that are elected to govern our country an endangered species forget any ideas of change

At the risk of labouring "Swissness" there is always the Swiss solution - direct democracy. The Swiss people told their gov in a referendum last week to supply heroin to registered addicts.

This is sensible thinking.

(1) If you are an addict, there is no point in buying your drug on the streets any more, when the government will give it to you free.

(2) The government can quickly build up a definitive database of addicts and take the necessary remedial steps to deal with the addiction.

(3) It does a lot to kill the market for "street" drug dealers.

(4) It reduces crime. I suspect that a substantial proportion of theft and burglary is driven by addicts who need money to pay for their addiction.

(5) If you kill off the illegal drug trade, you kill off most of the marketing effort to hook new addicts.

Given a referendum option, I suspect that most people in urban areas would vote for Luas quality public transport, and use it rather than their car. By Luas quality I don't mean trams going everywhere - rather a systematic integrated public transport network with good design, comfort, and reliability.

fishfoodie · 04-12-2008 09:43PM

You have to differentiate between shocking design & construction because of lack of knowledge, or because of lack of 'discipline' for want of a better word.

Its worth remembering that Irish Navvies & workers build & engineered excellent Canals, Railways & Roads across the UK & Ireland; before they became Irish run concerns.

We don't build ****e because we don't know better, its because we're too damn apathetic about the consequences.

Oh & I find it kinda amazing that the French who build the best Nuclear Power plants in the world... could design a Toilet like this

probe · 05-12-2008 03:00PM

fishfoodie wrote: »

You have to differentiate between shocking design & construction because of lack of knowledge, or because of lack of 'discipline' for want of a better word.

Its worth remembering that Irish Navvies & workers build & engineered excellent Canals, Railways & Roads across the UK & Ireland; before they became Irish run concerns.

We don't build ****e because we don't know better, its because we're too damn apathetic about the consequences.

Oh & I find it kinda amazing that the French who build the best Nuclear Power plants in the world... could design a Toilet like this

Name one railway or road in Ireland or Britain that demonstrates engineering and build excellence please? The railway track infrastructure in Britain is akin to that found in many African countries. Ireland's "permanent way" (to use IR's quaint lingo) is little better, and probably unsafe at over 100 km/h. Britain's motorway network is crumbling - due to basic mistakes and slipshod workmanship (eg concrete pouring delays leading to structural weaknesses in bridges and other components of the network). These are being replaced over time, at huge cost and traffic delay inconvenience to road users. If the job was done properly day one, this would be totally unnecessary.

The use of roundabouts instead of proper grade separated motorway interchanges in both Britain and Ireland has incurred untold costs on users due to delays and accidents - Dublin's M50 and London's M25 being subprime examples of this, par excellence.

Ireland's motorway network still has no motorway service areas. No place for the car driver to stop and make phone calls, have coffee or a meal, go to the toilet, or rest. And no place for the Gardai to check truckers and examine their tachographs. Visit any Autobahn Rasthof in Germany and chances are you will find Polezi checking truckers' tachographs, and vehicles and carrying out other inspections. http://www.tank.rast.de/services/leistungen/index_en.php

Street public toilets in France have been replaced over the past 40 years or so with automatic, self-cleaning cubicles. Your pic is obviously very old:D.

derry · 06-12-2008 12:06PM

probe wrote: »

...snip...

Street public toilets in France have been replaced over the past 40 years or so with automatic, self-cleaning cubicles. Your pic is obviously very old:D.

And half the time they are very few of them that replaced the older solution as they cost like E30k each .Then half at any one time seem to be broken down .This combined with the majority of the bars hotels etc. don't let you use the toilets if your not a punter means you will frequently see signs of add hock street urination everywhere.And worse the french cities are chock a block full for dogs who do the busness on the street and french or non french owners for all I know who don't practice the art of the pooper scooper.

Maybe if Frech dog crap was salvaged and exported to Ireland as Ammo we could fire it at the regime to show how bad they really smell for their pro oil and energy companies lobby sell out

Look at Shell oil yesterday who get everything it demands and the shell to sea can go take a flying fuch .In a few years the regime will get the nice cushy numbers on E200,000 euro plus a year as part time members of the board of some energy companies subsidary when they leave office for being good lackeys for the energy companies and getting the country to sell oil and gas for nothing to energy companies .:pac::pac::pac:

Derry

probe · 06-12-2008 04:38PM

derry wrote: »

And half the time they are very few of them that replaced the older solution as they cost like E30k each .Then half at any one time seem to be broken down .This combined with the majority of the bars hotels etc. don't let you use the toilets if your not a punter means you will frequently see signs of add hock street urination everywhere.And worse the french cities are chock a block full for dogs who do the busness on the street and french or non french owners for all I know who don't practice the art of the pooper scooper.

Maybe if Frech dog crap was salvaged and exported to Ireland as Ammo we could fire it at the regime to show how bad they really smell for their pro oil and energy companies lobby sell out

Look at Shell oil yesterday who get everything it demands and the shell to sea can go take a flying fuch .In a few years the regime will get the nice cushy numbers on E200,000 euro plus a year as part time members of the board of some energy companies subsidary when they leave office for being good lackeys for the energy companies and getting the country to sell oil and gas for nothing to energy companies .:pac::pac::pac:

Derry

You are digressing and muddying the waters on this topic by going off thread.

While I would dispute your assertion that half the street toilets in France are out of order at any point in time, it is not the point at issue here. Ireland spends hundreds of millions on new airport facilities in Cork, Dublin and other places, and the first thing that greets one when one lands is the filthy, badly designed toilets with poorly designed urinals and other equipment.

If a country can't get this simple engineering issue right, such as dealing with toilet facilities in well funded airports and other public buildings, what hope has it of commissioning and operating nuclear power plants safely?

Street toilets are few and far between in Ireland. Like motorway service areas. Ireland has engineered the public convenience out of the system, forcing people to use private facilities in hotels, pubs, etc, wasting peoples' time on off route diversions, and costing the owners of these private facilities money to maintain the service.

In terms of dog dirt you grossly exaggerate the problem again. France has a huge dog population, 99% of them are fashion accessories and well cared for, and there is provision for them virtually everywhere one travels. The streets in French urban areas are washed daily, and most cities have plastic bag dispensers for owners to use to clean up after their animals while taking them for a walk. In my experience Ireland has a far larger dog dirt problem, which invariably awaits heavy rain to clean it up, because the notion of power washing streets and footpaths in cities at 06h00 every morning is alien to Ireland.

As far as the Shell saga is concerned, Ireland urgently needs indigenous energy sources. If Ireland had a decent education system that produced generations of engineering excellence, the Corrib gas pipeline would not be an issue - because there would be public confidence that the system would be designed, installed and operated in a competent manner.

In any event, the risks of Corrib gas have been blown out of all proportion. Ireland has had offshore gas from Kinsale Head piped into Inch Strand, near the Whitegate Oil Refinery, by Marathon for over 30 years and onwards into the national gas grid without a single problem. Imagine if they had an oil refinery as well up in Corrib Gas nut-house zone, these NIMBY idiots would probably be slitting their wrists in a super-climax of NIMBY outrage protest.

Ireland will never be energy independent if refused to grow up and deal with the engineering realities, opportunities and risks in an intelligent manner.

In that respect the country has unfortunately being going backwards since Kinsale gas was discovered.

derry · 06-12-2008 08:39PM

probe wrote: »

...snip...
If a country can't get this simple engineering issue right, such as dealing with toilet facilities in well funded airports and other public buildings, what hope has it of commissioning and operating nuclear power plants safely?

God help us if we ever are dumb eneogh to have nuclear here . We blow ourselfs to kingdom come

probe wrote: »

In terms of dog dirt you grossly exaggerate the problem again. France has a huge dog population, 99% of them are fashion accessories and well cared for, and there is provision for them virtually everywhere one travels. The streets in French urban areas are washed daily, and most cities have plastic bag dispensers for owners to use to clean up after their animals while taking them for a walk.

Having lived in France for several years If I didn't step in dog crap once a day that was a good day

probe wrote: »

As far as the Shell saga is concerned, Ireland urgently needs indigenous energy sources. If Ireland had a decent education system that produced generations of engineering excellence, the Corrib gas pipeline would not be an issue - because there would be public confidence that the system would be designed, installed and operated in a competent manner.
In any event, the risks of Corrib gas have been blown out of all proportion. Ireland has had offshore gas from Kinsale Head piped into Inch Strand, near the Whitegate Oil Refinery, by Marathon for over 30 years and onwards into the national gas grid without a single problem.

I wouldn,t call one supertanker exploding and destroying the etty a minor blip on the radar

Any way we have plenty of proven low teck ways ways to grow our own fuel needs from bio fuels so we can tell the shell and co and the rest to go FecH themselfs and go back to where they came from

probe wrote: »

Ireland will never be energy independent if refused to grow up and deal with the engineering realities, opportunities and risks in an intelligent manner.

We can grow our own bio fuels and that solves those fuel issues. We can construct some wind mills .We can construct some few small dams to store power . Basically Ireland can be independent from oil companies much like the Brazilians are who told the oil companies to go take a flying f***

probe wrote: »

In that respect the country has unfortunately being going backwards since Kinsale gas was discovered.

Why do I think you work for the oil companies or are brain washed by them??

No whats happened is everybody see the real story ,even if we found the mother load of oil out there the regime would give it away for a few kickbacks and jobs for the golden circle elite .Us twots would still pay high fuel prices and high taxes and still have a crap health service and be forced to live in chemical sewer over badly made pipes that were exporting the ill gotten gains to the highest bidders in Europe . When the oil ran out we would get stiffed with the cleaning up bill
With Bio fuels solutions the strokes the regime can pull are less and more farmers would be employed .Wind farms are hard to make big kick backs fro that . We would would not have to have a big complex oil or gas refinery problem and we would not need those SOB oil and energy companies with their low quality badly constructed pipe lines

The days when the Irish Mr or Mrs Murphy can be conned with this we need the oil companies are dwindling .We don't need them and in fact more of us everyday want them to pack their bags and leave ASAP.Shell oil kills lots of hapless victims in Nigeria every day with badly made low quality exploding pipe lines and now they want to do the same here in Ireland .Leapords don't change their spots .French dog crap is too good for them .

And then we wont have to do anymore such big science crap and stick to songs and poems whatever that makes us ore money often than science does and stick to what we good at and avoid those real big high teck crap projects that can go bang and blow up the whole country .

Derry

probe · 07-12-2008 05:13PM

derry wrote: »

Having lived in France for several years If I didn't step in dog crap once a day that was a good day

So? What has your apparently dirty canine infested choice of campsite in France for several years got to do with Ireland's strategy for energy independence?

I wouldn,t call one supertanker exploding and destroying the etty a minor blip on the radar

I have never heard of a supertanker exploding at a Whitegate oil refinery jetty. And even if one had exploded, which AFASIK hasn't happened in its 50 years of operation, it is irrelevant. The point I was making is that the gas pipeline from Kinsale Head runs just next to the Whitegate oil refinery without a problem, ever.

Any way we have plenty of proven low teck ways ways to grow our own fuel needs from bio fuels so we can tell the shell and co and the rest to go FecH themselfs and go back to where they came from

We can grow our own bio fuels and that solves those fuel issues. We can construct some wind mills .We can construct some few small dams to store power . Basically Ireland can be independent from oil companies much like the Brazilians are who told the oil companies to go take a flying f***

If someone can go back to the labs and get algae biofuel working economically, perhaps. Today's generation of biofuel technologies are not the solution.

Why do I think you work for the oil companies or are brain washed by them??

probe doesn't work for an oil company. Never has. Never will.

BendiBus · 07-12-2008 05:32PM

probe wrote: »

I have never heard of a supertanker exploding at a Whitegate oil refinery jetty.

I presume derry is thinking of Whiddy Island (Bantry), rather than Whitegate (Cork).

djpbarry · 09-12-2008 10:37AM

ART6 wrote: »

There is an enormous amount we could do to reduce our imports of energy, and biofuels and wind power etc etc are just a small part of that, but the real long term answer has to be nuclear surely?

Why?

probe wrote: »

If Ireland had a decent education system that produced generations of engineering excellence...

According to the Programme for International Student Assessment, Irish students rank above average in terms of scientific knowledge.

derry wrote: »

We can grow our own bio fuels and that solves those fuel issues.

Can we?

derry wrote: »

We can construct some few small dams to store power…

I’m not sure what you mean by this?

derry · 09-12-2008 12:08PM

djpbarry wrote: »

According to the Programme for International Student Assessment, Irish students rank above average in terms of scientific knowledge.

What a hoot . So your gooing to tell me the Russians who launch rockets every few day to outer space are just thickos.The Japanese students that do maths in first year seconaday school which is the same level as Irish science in unversities are another bunch of dead heads. I have lived and worked in some few counties in Europe and know from Irish and non Irish our science standards in colleges and schools are mostly down with the stone ages close to some of the worst in Europe .That's not such a big problem we dont launch rockets and last I heard even with wanna be FAS student we are not going to launch rockets .We are not going to make Airbus planes or cars or ship building or many hiteck industries.We are 4 million peoples and so we cant do most science high teck solution Industries .So why throw big money at something we don't need a lot of people to qualified in. We need to train more people to do low teck things like grow bio fuels or build houses with good insulation but science forget it we can do without so much of it and we can import the bits we are missing. Like for example lets import a Brazilian president to get the bio fuel solution going in Ireland
Here this link

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...735644,00.html

is the Brazilian president doing a great job premoting Bio fuels in Brazil and Bio fuels work in Brazil .Brazil tell the oil companies to go FUCH themselfs as they often less educated with less schooling than us Irish on average have found the fuel solutions that work . But the oil companies in Ireland own the thicko regime here so better import a better proven regime than this one .

djpbarry wrote:

derry wrote:

We can construct some few small dams to store power…

I’m not sure what you mean by this?

The articale in the OP
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...234992689.html
states we need to build 15 plus small dams to store excess power for peak demands

Derry

djpbarry · 09-12-2008 12:30PM

derry wrote: »

What a hoot . So your gooing to tell me the Russians who launch rockets every few day to outer space are just thickos.The Japanese students that do maths in first year seconaday school which is the same level as Irish science in unversities are another bunch of dead heads.

Eh, what?

derry wrote: »

I have lived and worked in some few counties in Europe and know from Irish and non Irish our science standards in colleges and schools are mostly down with the stone ages close to some of the worst in Europe

No, they are not. Your continual insistence that they are does not change that fact.

derry wrote: »

We are not going to make Airbus planes or cars or ship building or many hiteck industries.

Really? So your proposed Irish biofuels industry will not be based on any scientific principles, eh?

derry wrote: »

We need to train more people to do low teck things like grow bio fuels or build houses with good insulation but science forget it we can do without so much of it and we can import the bits we are missing.

So in order to kick-start the economy, we need to down-skill the workforce?!?

AngryHippie · 09-12-2008 12:35PM

To be fair, Our science and maths education scheme ain't bad at all, Its a little unfortunate that we don't have a better uptake in the honours bracket of these subjects, because if a maths student can get his head around calculus in leaving cert, then there is not much they can't accomplish with a little bit of hard work in 3rd level. Our leaving cert honours Physics course is enough to get you into 2nd year of an Engineering degree with only mild revision, and a thorough understanding of chemistry or Biology at a leaving cert honours level will serve a student very well if studying a 3rd level degree in either field. What is plagueing Irelands graduates is the fact that even if they do a 3rd level science degree, to go further and get into any sort of masters programme means either more work than they have time for (due to work or social commitments) or more work than they are prepared to do ( there is not that much demand in Ireland for a doctor of chemistry) Add to that the fact that the only way to actually see a respectable pay off for all the best years of your life spent at a study desk is to cash it in as soon as you can.

I Blame the parents. ha ha ha ha

robtri · 09-12-2008 01:41PM

derry wrote: »

What a hoot . So your gooing to tell me the Russians who launch rockets every few day to outer space are just thickos.The Japanese students that do maths in first year seconaday school which is the same level as Irish science in unversities are another bunch of dead heads. I have lived and worked in some few counties in Europe and know from Irish and non Irish our science standards in colleges and schools are mostly down with the stone ages close to some of the worst in Europe .That's not such a big problem we dont launch rockets and last I heard even with wanna be FAS student we are not going to launch rockets .We are not going to make Airbus planes or cars or ship building or many hiteck industries.We are 4 million peoples and so we cant do most science high teck solution Industries .So why throw big money at something we don't need a lot of people to qualified in. We need to train more people to do low teck things like grow bio fuels or build houses with good insulation but science forget it we can do without so much of it and we can import the bits we are missing. Like for example lets import a Brazilian president to get the bio fuel solution going in Ireland
Here this link

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...735644,00.html

is the Brazilian president doing a great job premoting Bio fuels in Brazil and Bio fuels work in Brazil .Brazil tell the oil companies to go FUCH themselfs as they often less educated with less schooling than us Irish on average have found the fuel solutions that work . But the oil companies in Ireland own the thicko regime here so better import a better proven regime than this one .

The articale in the OP
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...234992689.html
states we need to build 15 plus small dams to store excess power for peak demands

Derry

The answer to all of irelands problems seems to be these bio fuels.... every thread you seem to bring them up..... have you a stakehold in this??
We need to attract high end jobs to support the economy... and we need to increase our education system to help be part of the R&D into renewable energies...to make them viable....(please don't go on about the kick backers, unless you can prove it still goes on)

we don't make the airbus or cars, butwe make a lot of commponents that go into these machines,
we can't do hi-tek stuff, my god where do you get that from... Intel, dell, HP won't be here if we couldn't do hi tek stuff.... that is such an insult to the irish people.....maybe you can' but a lot of us can and do.....

oh and Brazil don't tell oil companies where to go.... they recently just found in their controlled area, one of the worlds biggest oil fields and they are developing it... so they are just as much in bed with the oil companies...

derry · 09-12-2008 04:54PM

robtri wrote: »

The answer to all of irelands problems seems to be these bio fuels.... every thread you seem to bring them up..... have you a stakehold in this??

The OP states with some low teck solutions we can solve our electricity generation needs.It doesn't probably solve most joe soaps needs for transport .Bio fuels low tech solution solves a lot of transport needs.High tech imported batteries might when they exist also help to solve the transport issues.
My stake in the story is joe soap driving a car looking for better cheaper fuel that hopefully employes more Irish and gives less money to Arabs Russians or non Irish at the expense of fellow Irish .
But now you mention it mayby I should make a buisness plan get a loan buy a farm to harvest bio fuels .I lived through several fuel hikes shortages whatever and was able to obtain other fuel solutions like converting my motor bike or car to run on gas or pariffin or best solution several times before E85 was alcohol from unnamed sources in the paint trade mixxed with petrol.I knew that from a racing buddy who used that solution on the motorbike racing curcuit .
I later on early 2008 saw a documentry on Youtube and E85 was available to buy in 2007 /2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-Y08RSDP6s&feature=related

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuOs1yap8mU

how most cars without convertion kits could run on E85 or E85 mixes I copied the documentry put E85 into my non flex fuel car and no convertion kit with no problems and saved a fortune when petrol costs were higher through most of 2008 .

Then I looked into the Bio fuel subject found out how oil companies con us Irish and how Brazil was ahead of the curve and had already found a solution from being conned by these oil companies.
In Ireland we still get conned from oil companies .Me I am your hands on do it type of guy not waiting for some scientists to tell me what can or cannot be done .Modern Irish scientists often only do experiments that suit them with no interest to do experiments that might suit society pressing needs like cheaper fuel solutions.

robtri wrote: »

We need to attract high end jobs to support the economy... and we need to increase our education system to help be part of the R&D into renewable energies...to make them viable....(please don't go on about the kick backers, unless you can prove it still goes on)

Reality check the chances are we can develop some super dupper high tech solution to replace oil products or be renewable like car that runs on water is low.Even if we did produce the car that ran on water the patent would go to America or similar and probably be exploited there or buried to suit the market needs namely oil.
One Irish company NTERA 2002 made some great battery that could revoltionize electric cars and similar needs and looks like they sold the patent probably to America .Us joe soap plebs will now probably pay top dollar to import thousands of these made in China under USA licence batteries and send the money out of Ireland .Yes so a few Irish made a killing but the rest of the country that supplied the education and the where with all to develop this will get small change in few tax returns .Investing in science is very good for few elitist scientists at the top of the tree but possibly very marginal at best for the rest of the country.
Our electronics industry is nearly wiped out gone to China or India . One top Irish electronics company in Ireland employing 50 top people left in early 1990 era and set up in eastern Europe and employs lots of non Irish and pays lots of taxes to the new host country
Another Irish company http://www.dipetane.ie/ which developed and made a new fuel additive isn't exactly killing themselfs to help out Irish motorists.If I spend 10 euros on one liter of the product the ratio mix 200:1 and assuming 10% gain on milage I save 5 euros on a 100 euros spent best case.If I buy bigger volumes of Dipethane the saving might be be ~ 6 euros on a hundred eurors spent .I will try this stuff in my car only as it is Irish made and Irish invented but they sure ant selling it cheap.I will write up the forum on my results mush as I did when I ran my car on E85

E85 during the high petrol prices through a lot of 2008 saved me a lot more money than Dipethane ever looks like it can

Our software industry is going rapidly somewhere else.Yes every now and then some Irish brain box comes up with something very tecky but we don't need to train 20,000 Irish foot dragging students to barf out facts and then get state jobs sampling cows milk whatever or do as the more clever do change and get a masters in buisness and dump science as a low paid and crap future which it mostly is.

The result is when you look the multi nationals here the majority of the scientists working there are now are often non Irish population who do the low paid science jobs and often the Irish have got the non science higher earning jobs like HR . I know a Spanish scientist working here in Ireland for 13 euros an hour where the work is mission critical to company and thousands of peoples lives are completly dependant that the work is 100% correct. The fork lift driver in the same gaff is on 15 euros an hour
go figure

robtri wrote: »

we don't make the airbus or cars, butwe make a lot of commponents that go into these machines,

What a hoot .Yes we got multi nationals here that probably do some the software or some bit parts .Last I saw we were not making the wings or fuselage or tail or anything very big.Probably have the contract for the Irish linen curtains developed to aircraft standards fire resistant whatever. Certianly our economy isn't dependent on Airbus .Now all EU needs is for
O Leary to switch out of Boeing to Airbus and they would be made There is a good example O Leary who doesn't do building planes or science. O Leary is trained in bean counting and sells seats on planes

robtri wrote: »

we can't do hi-tek stuff, my god where do you get that from... Intel, dell, HP won't be here if we couldn't do hi tek stuff.... that is such an insult to the irish people.....maybe you can' but a lot of us can and do.....

Come on we don't do rockets or Airbus or nuclear reactors or all those ultra big highteck projects like the space station

We can piggy back a few experiments onto the space station or a few other small projects.We can assemble the Dell computers on assembly lines but Dell wont let us do the real high teck stuff that USA departments of defense wont allow us see or touch or even leave the USA borders .

The Intel high teck department isn't all Irish and has a big non Irish component . Intel is a component part in a huge multi national .If Intel are short of Irish egg heads they can import from the millions of EU brain boxes out there.It wont effect the Irish economy much one way or the other if all the egg heads were non Irish .It might piss off a few Irish egg heads though.
There is no insult in understanding a 4 million population cant do NASA.
We Irish can do good music or arts or culture or food products and many other things . But this more holy than though mantra we need to be so high tech at huge expense that often absorbs more than its fair share of resources needs to be looked at .If it returns more money than invested into it then it can be worth it .If not then many other solutions exist that might return better rewards possibly for a lot less money .No amount of reports that we the the Irish race are the most clever race since whatever will convince me that we can stop the sky falling in .The property crash has shown up some of our illusions that we like to fool ourselfs with . The next illusion that needs to be cut down to size is the Hitech mantra .It looks much more like we need to raise the average guy in the work force abilities up a few notches in hi-teck field first rather than a few elitists .That means we can copy the experts like Brazil that proved low tech solution like Bio fuels work.Monkey see monkey do science education might be more the theme than high faluting FAS rocket projects .

robtri wrote: »

oh and Brazil don't tell oil companies where to go.... they recently just found in their controlled area, one of the worlds biggest oil fields and they are developing it... so they are just as much in bed with the oil companies...

Let me see did Brazil say come to Brazil drill because we are desperate for energy we import all our energy needs .When you find the oil sell it to the highest bidder and if Brazil isn't the highest bidder well that's life .Take all the oil and don't pay royalties on it. Build your pipe lines where you like under houses cities what you like and if the locals object we will send all the police force to sort them out.

Or did they dictate terms to the oil company saying we got all our own energy solutions and we don't need you .Oil companies you need us you need the oil and we gonna make you pay top dollar

The Irish Regime is the cheap whore in the bed with the oil companies giving everything away for a song. The Brazilians are the wife in the bed with oil companies who will be taking everything back in the future divorce case :pac::pac::pac:

Just get used to it that maybe not only are the Brazilians more better at football than us Irish but seems they are way ahead of us for some renewable solutions.Also they are dictating terms to oil companies and maybe even more clever than us.

Until we recognize we ant the most clever mob on the planet and quit quoting reports to show we are then we cant solve the problems .Then we can plan in such a way so the can do types out there who know how to make renewables in Ireland work can be let set to to make Ireland energy independent in under a decade.That declaration must include transport some 30% of our fuel needs as well as electricity is only like ~1/2 of our energy demands.Its a tough project to be tottaly fuel independent but tougher to do it in a decade.The difference is when you look the history of all the kick backs starting with the founders like Pearce himself who sold crap Indo paper shares to his own in the USA all the way through to the present regime and all the dirt we saw from tribunals the die is well set in the regime kick backs is the mold .Look who made the money in the great EirCon sale.Wake up the reality is so in your face and yet you want to just like the jews did before Hitler killed them beliieve it was just a shower unit These guys are three card street act who run circles around you .That means it can block all efforts to remove the oil imports with high or low teck solutions as they control the crap table.
Egg heads are no match for cute whore heads .

Derry

Conore27 · 09-12-2008 07:18PM

derry wrote: »

Now when it comes to a choice from the regime in power to choose from a nice little earner like oil or some egg head in some college who you think is gonna win

€6 billion reasons exist to keep the status quo. Even if it cost the oil and energy companies gas coal companies €1 billion to keep the regime suitably enamoured in oil and fosil fuels with kick backs and under the table slush funds and cushy positions on oil and energy companies board of directors after retirement oil and energy companies will still profit to €5 billion .

So unless the egg heads figure a way to match the slush funds that €6 billion of oil and energy imports can fight with then all the tecky solutions are a waste of time trying to get past the kickback brigade

Forget the greens they are puppets in this regime of kick back grabbers who barely get the FF to get a small subsidy to have bikes to cycle to work.

Yes Ireland can supply also the fuel to drive all the cars and trucks with bio fuels using less fertile land which is not used presently and without even using any of the 1/3rd out of the very fertile land which is kept out from farming because EU pays for the land to do nothing .

So seeing as we cant buy bio Deisel at the garage and only a handful of garages sell bio petrol E85 then it is clear proof the kickbacker accepters who run the Regime will ensure this new plan will be lost in a sea of slush funds from the oil and energy companies who stand to lose €6 billion sales

Derry

Just a few points as I think I share the same interest as most viewers of this forum in having a cleaner energy society in Ireland. Its understandable that this should involve heathly debate on the pros and cons of technologies and policies etc, but it worries me when the first reaction is to point at the government in a somewhat indiscriminate and cynical manner.

So going slightly beyond the energy debate I'd like to make the following points :

- they, the government are representative of us in democratic and cultural terms. We voted for whatevr goverment is in power, and beyond that, the attititude in politics and in the wider Irish society is refflective of our national culture. So I guess my point is that whever you point a finger at 'them', reconsider whether this is not a manifestation of 'you'?

- likewise, 'they', the government collect taxes (not quite in the way described in this post) and not quite to put in their own bank accounts but actually to pay for public services. If this is unsatisfactory is another issue. That there may be lobbying on what sectors are taxed versus incentivised is a disdavantage of Western democary but something that most of us are involved with somewhere down the line.

- before we criticise government policy on topics in this forum you might want to question what you know about government policy and discussions on the same subject. You might find that governments approach to energy policy is somewhat more in depth as is required for such a significant and complex subject. In fact you can learn a lot in both policy and political terms by checking out the debates on energy at http://debates.oireachtas.ie/Committees.aspx?Dail=30 - here you can see that the level of discussion here is of a fairly high standard compared with most discussions here in that it is based on real business and real poiltical scenarios. You might also discern that our representatives are quite earnest in their approach to these issues.

- also, quoting the 'regime' in this manner just suggests an anti-establishment agenda as opposed to a cleaner energy society agenda and that's not going to get any of us anywhere. Thankfully, the cleaner energy agneda is now actually a mainstream agenda.

- back to the original point of this post, regarding Ireland being energy independent. I personally feel this is achievable, although we will have to up the ante do achive it any time soon. For example, in the near term lots of collective changes and even sacrifices will undoubtedly be required by the general population beyond government in order to switch to a smart, demand driven energy economy. How ready are we for this collectively is my greater concern but I am positive that it is achievable with the right attitude at all levels.

And in case you're wondering I'm not in any way involved in government - I just feel its better to be objective about matters such as these if you really are interested in progress.

derry · 09-12-2008 10:38PM

Re :Conore27 welcome to the house of fun

Yes for all sorts of reasons many of us hang in this forum to air our views

Some would be in the land of noody where they figure pontificate and invent the techy solution and the problem is fixed next problem.
Others dream of some nervana paridise of no techy solutions and we should all go back to the horse and carts whatever.

Others like me after looking many years the same repeated formulas the government does to rip the faces from us and then retire on great wages for life having squandered vast amounts of funds on nonsense or worse pollutiing solution. Then one starts after a while to figure well if that's the formula and all the tip toe PC crap doesn't make them see the light ,well then its throw out PC and paint the real piture warts and all.

SO if some egg head wants to state that Ireland can be independent from energy imports they would be joining a long line of egg heads who worked out similar plans over many many years. But the PC policies we were always told would pay in the long run somehow along the road those noble ideas got lost along the way when cheaper oil floods the market and we all go back to our other problems.

Now as a joe soap motorist getting very bored every few years regular as clock work some oil price hike comes around and rips my face and I ask why am I still running around in a 1900 invention an internal combustion engine car dependent on polluting fossil fuels .

I mean with what mayby 3000 scientists every year coming from the colleges in Ireland and the millions of scientists world wide why are we still stuck with oil burning cars or even worse still stuck solidly in the oil age.

When you check where the facts is you find the scientists are all trained to be brain dead sorta like golden gooses that lay golden eggs. They work for multinationals with greedy non scientists at the top who sell the ideas for a fortune . Worse the system makes scientist think they are the movers and shakers that point out the way forward ,where as in fact they are merely given lip service and excuses as to why they cant fork up the cash for the new experiments whatever .Worse the scientists hate to even find out this truth as it basicaly makes them out to be stupid and science hates to be seen to be stupid.So Science circles hope that if plan a good plan they can exert eneogh force on the powers that run the gaff .They figure if they train a multitude of people to do science it will knock down the doors of the power who have the money to anti up more money for science .Sorta machine gun logic throw eneogh small bullets and the doors fall down from all the holes.The problem is the doors to the real money is held well away from the government who only get fed eneogh to keep them going to enforce the wishes of the real monied forces .Now its simple stuff if your an energy company polluting the hell out of the place earning 6 billion a year just from one stupid little island never mind the rest are you going to let another wanna be egg head with good ideas spanner that kinda money in a decade!! ten years even.
So who you gonna call.
The regime of course the good old regime and if they don't play ball you got the dirt on them and can have them replaced .
So egg head versus 6 billion.What odds would the book maker give that the egg head wins against those odds.

So in ten years time when we are still importing 90 % of our energy and we can say yet again science got out manouvered . Not because the science is wrong but because the science is right and the losers could lose 6 billion annualy . All much the same as all the previous scientists before over the last thirty plus years who had some good ways to keep ROI more energy independent and were sidelined .

Nothing new in this it happens in the UK and USA and other places also. Egg heads in MIT calculated there is from the millions of years of vegitation that got turned into oil the high probability that there is more than 1000 years of oil in the planet yet to be found. So now we know the Energy companies with proven resources of 1000 years for coal 500 years for gas and 40 years for oil are actually fudging the numbers and have nearly unlimited supplies of oil to throw at stopping any solutions that can remotely threaten the grip they got on the 6 billion annual earning .

So the show goes like this "MR President sorry Mr Biffo we got a problem.Some egg head has pissed the big sponsors for the war chest for the next election with some mumbo jumbo about a no oil solutions for ROI"."Oh Yeah that is a problem what the fix my underling" ."Easy peasy same as last time we double the size of his department of that science department he is in and make all sorts of nice cooing about how shiny his egg head is .That will distract him for ten years and we should get clear two elections out of it before he cops on. Then the egg head is in to deep to his department and forgets all about it.Works every time .Then anytime anybody complains about lack of progress in energy solutions we roll out some egg head from some where that had good ideas in the fivties or sixties and are now clearly nearly totally senile and bores the reporters to death and we are back in the clear.Happy with the plan" ."Yeah no problem but why did you fill my head with minor details like that next time just do it and send the bill to special war funds B.F. account . Lucky we ant egg heads or we wouldn't have planned ahead a suitable war fund like the B.F account and if anybody asks its the Banking fund account and not the Biffo fund got that .:pac::pac::pac:

So we can see the well oiled machine via the regime will ensure the egg head plans will be lost in the sea of other egg head ideas. Not becuase they don't like the idea.Not because they even have a clue what the idea is.Not because they even wake up in the middle of night sweating there is a plan.Not even because the regime are bad bastards or even entertaining hoodlums , but simply because a few calls are made that have the real power that come from selling 6 Billion in energy and the suitable solution is found from somewhere some how ,or political heads could roll.Survival of the sneakiest really .
Sneaky politics One Egg heads Zero .

So now we know why in ROI we got to get a vast sea of useless science graduates who defect to buisness masters courses as soon as they graduate mixed in with a few real scientists graduates who can still be fooled with three card street tricks.Because the science field is so thinnly spread in resources but big in numbers the pay is often low and the scientists have to beg for funds because they keep falling for the idea increase the numbers instead to increase the quality.

Now bean pushers accountants are not that stupid.They ensure the amount of graduates is limited so the pay figures remain higher ,other wise they too could end up working like scientists for a monkey nuts .

The three card trickters get into poliitics or big companies and learn the art of patting egg heads on their ego buttons and milking them for every good idea they can.

In the mean time the plebs like us needing good cheap and non polluting power sources are still waiting for the car that runs on water that science has probably invented thirty years ago but it sits in vaults secure from any use against oil solutions as they own the patent .Who knows maybe even a Irish guy invented it but its all just a big swinging whatever if your still paying for electric ESB from gas coal sources and petrol costs for the car

So Seeing as PC methods the last thirty plus years don't work against these three card tricksters then the only solution is to paint the piture warts and all tell them all to the face how it really is .The days of the fievedoms being given the benifit of the dought are over and based on the historical track record the future projections are now going to be very non PC .When in ten years time Ireland is independent of energy imports then I can happily say I was wrong.Now who wants to figure the odds of that happening if everybody is so lovy dovy touchy feely so PC.Whats the odds that something might happen if we figure we don't need huge science numbers graduating to solve problems .We don't need ego soother reports telling the Irish how smart they are.We are better off to ensure a few science graduates who really want to be science are given more trainning in big projects like maybe two years of the course in Germany or big countries as part of the course so that we get real graduates who know how the big show really works .
What we need now as a stop gap are real solutions to real problems and if necessary we copy what really works like what Brazil does and if necessary we import their President to help us along the road.

What we don't need in order to succeed is ensure the vested interest who can lose 6 billion annually will win That happens from the the normal trick of dropping energy prices to below cost so as to kill off alternatives energy solutions . Then this is quickly followed by the public who will say why we pay more for alternatives when oil is so much cheaper .Now let guess who will stir the mob to say that.

The concept that green is main stream is plain wrong .The price of fuel in the tank or the ESB bill is mainstream. If dirty petrol or dirty coal is cheaper that will be main stream .You need to come up with a much better plan as to why we need to to make expensive windmills or bio fuels and so forth .
The fact that green policies are in line with secure long term solutions like wind power or bio fuel doesn't get much que dos when oil is super cheap and we can all so easily slip back to cheap oil for another few years

The Brazilians succeeded so I figure monkey see monkey do education solutions and copy what they did and if necessary fire any Egg heads that want their ego soothed with lovy dovy touchy feely PC crap

welcome to the house of fun 10 years or bust
Your green mission should you chose to accept it does not include being PC

Derry

davty10 · 10-12-2008 12:05AM

derry wrote: »

Now when it comes to a choice from the regime in power to choose from a nice little earner like oil or some egg head in some college who you think is gonna win

€6 billion reasons exist to keep the status quo. Even if it cost the oil and energy companies gas coal companies €1 billion to keep the regime suitably enamoured in oil and fosil fuels with kick backs and under the table slush funds and cushy positions on oil and energy companies board of directors after retirement oil and energy companies will still profit to €5 billion .

So unless the egg heads figure a way to match the slush funds that €6 billion of oil and energy imports can fight with then all the tecky solutions are a waste of time trying to get past the kickback brigade

Forget the greens they are puppets in this regime of kick back grabbers who barely get the FF to get a small subsidy to have bikes to cycle to work.

Yes Ireland can supply also the fuel to drive all the cars and trucks with bio fuels using less fertile land which is not used presently and without even using any of the 1/3rd out of the very fertile land which is kept out from farming because EU pays for the land to do nothing .

So seeing as we cant buy bio Deisel at the garage and only a handful of garages sell bio petrol E85 then it is clear proof the kickbacker accepters who run the Regime will ensure this new plan will be lost in a sea of slush funds from the oil and energy companies who stand to lose €6 billion sales

Derry

I think you may be missing the point here, fossil fuels are running out and ultimately we will have to resort to alternative energies.

derry · 10-12-2008 01:06AM

davty10 wrote: »

I think you may be missing the point here, fossil fuels are running out and ultimately we will have to resort to alternative energies.

Thats a typical responce.
First who drills for oil.Who keeps the data on what they find .Who knows all the data now. If you are sitting on the mother load of oil lets say 100 years supply what happens when you tell the world we got 100 years supply. The price falls off a cliff as why to pay a lot for a abundant stuff.Its more clever to say it is scarce and then nail the twots for more money

So seeing as most government accept the porkies the oil companies tell them about reserves then the problem is to know the real facts

So we employ a lot of brain dead scientists who collect all the data the oil companies supply them with.Naturally the data is slanted and the dip sticks arrive at the logical conclussion the that oil is running out.

Now when we look at other things we see that the so called oil peak is a moving target . It always like a carrot in front of a donkey.Now dip stick scientists still haven't copped that and accept the oil reserve data figures decade after decade and yet we never ever get to this mythical peak oiltarget.
We always seem to sudenly find that new big field just in time
What was the last big find Brazil I think .Where is next big suprise oil field find Indonesia???

Three card trick merchants like the oil trade can run circles around brain dead scientists .
Being PC wont solve the issue because your dealing with an entity the oil companies who have unlimited oil reserves which might run out in thousand years.
So egg heads who are so stupid to fall for the same trick decade after decade are hardly going to supply the real solutions as all the nice techy solutions are zip when your dealing with outright enslavers who wish us to remain enslaved to the black stuff for as long as possible

But dream on the oil running out .They been predicting oil was running out when they drilled the first wells in 1900. Still hasn't run out .

Once you understand that the oil companies have unlimited oil then you cop the truth .Your never going to get an oil free solution as long as the mantra is oil will run out.What works is what Brazil did and say we pissed to be ripped off every which way and even it costs more we will make a non oil importing solution .30 years later they proved it works but Ireland still swallows the oil company mantra bio fuels dont work and we import 90 % of our energy needs and train 3000 useles scientists a year

Wake up the cofee is soooo good in Brazil

Derry

robtri · 10-12-2008 08:30AM

derry wrote: »

Thats a typical responce.
First who drills for oil.Who keeps the data on what they find .Who knows all the data now. If you are sitting on the mother load of oil lets say 100 years supply what happens when you tell the world we got 100 years supply. The price falls off a cliff as why to pay a lot for a abundant stuff.Its more clever to say it is scarce and then nail the twots for more money

So seeing as most government accept the porkies the oil companies tell them about reserves then the problem is to know the real facts

So we employ a lot of brain dead scientists who collect all the data the oil companies supply them with.Naturally the data is slanted and the dip sticks arrive at the logical conclussion the that oil is running out.

Now when we look at other things we see that the so called oil peak is a moving target . It always like a carrot in front of a donkey.Now dip stick scientists still haven't copped that and accept the oil reserve data figures decade after decade and yet we never ever get to this mythical peak oiltarget.
We always seem to sudenly find that new big field just in time
What was the last big find Brazil I think .Where is next big suprise oil field find Indonesia???

Three card trick merchants like the oil trade can run circles around brain dead scientists .
Being PC wont solve the issue because your dealing with an entity the oil companies who have unlimited oil reserves which might run out in thousand years.
So egg heads who are so stupid to fall for the same trick decade after decade are hardly going to supply the real solutions as all the nice techy solutions are zip when your dealing with outright enslavers who wish us to remain enslaved to the black stuff for as long as possible

But dream on the oil running out .They been predicting oil was running out when they drilled the first wells in 1900. Still hasn't run out .

Once you understand that the oil companies have unlimited oil then you cop the truth .Your never going to get an oil free solution as long as the mantra is oil will run out.What works is what Brazil did and say we pissed to be ripped off every which way and even it costs more we will make a non oil importing solution .30 years later they proved it works but Ireland still swallows the oil company mantra bio fuels dont work and we import 90 % of our energy needs and train 3000 useles scientists a year

Wake up the cofee is soooo good in Brazil

Derry

Oh here it is again, bash the oil companies and promote bio fuel,
you have nothing to stand over those comments, they are made up and riddiculous, unless you can provide proof, keep slanderless comments like that to yourself...

Brazil is going for Oil production....
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/08/brazil.oil.ap/

they will be one of the top 5 oil producing countries soon...
they didn't hide that big one did they?????

djpbarry · 10-12-2008 10:54AM

derry wrote: »

Bio fuels low tech solution solves a lot of transport needs.

How exactly? Give me some figures on this.

derry wrote: »

Then I looked into the Bio fuel subject found out how oil companies con us Irish and how Brazil was ahead of the curve and had already found a solution from being conned by these oil companies. In Ireland we still get conned from oil companies.

How are we being “conned” exactly? Oil companies provide the oil, people buy it; where’s the con?

derry wrote: »

Modern Irish scientists often only do experiments that suit them with no interest to do experiments that might suit society pressing needs like cheaper fuel solutions.

:rolleyes: Yeah, sure. Look at all these potential money-spinners. Nothing of any use to society there, eh?

derry wrote: »

Reality check the chances are we can develop some super dupper high tech solution to replace oil products or be renewable like car that runs on water is low.

Well you seem to think we can all live happily ever after on biofuels.

derry wrote: »

Investing in science is very good for few elitist scientists at the top of the tree...

Where do I find this tree?

derry wrote: »

Our electronics industry is nearly wiped out gone to China or India .

You seem to be confusing “electronics” with “manufacturing”.

derry wrote: »

Come on we don't do rockets or Airbus or nuclear reactors or all those ultra big highteck projects like the space station

I suggest you actually read up on what research is being undertaken in Ireland before you dismiss it so easily.

And is it really necessary for your posts to be so ridiculously long?

derry · 10-12-2008 07:43PM

robtri wrote: »

Oh here it is again, bash the oil companies and promote bio fuel,
you have nothing to stand over those comments, they are made up and riddiculous, unless you can provide proof, keep slanderless comments like that to yourself...

Brazil is going for Oil production....
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/08/brazil.oil.ap/

they will be one of the top 5 oil producing countries soon...
they didn't hide that big one did they?????

oh watch out here comes the cyber police with the six shooter:eek:

wonderful link
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/08/brazil.oil.ap/

Proves my point the planet is swimming in oil.2007 when I said peak oil was crap invented by oil companies to make a price spike and Brazil had found huge reserves everybody said

"shuddup the face you have nothing to stand over those comments, they are made up and riddiculous, unless you can provide proof keep slanderless comments like that to yourself...":pac::pac::pac:

because the brazilan government owns 55% of the oil company Petrobras http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrobras

( here comes the itS a WIKI link crap :eek: Well Its good eneogh for this forum and I ant in the research Brazil oil buisness .I am only intersted in the Irish energy solutions that are completly renewables solutions)

and a lot of the profits go to Brazil government the rest of the oil companies in 2007 and 2008 tried every dirty trick to prove Brazil was telling a porkie and the oil finds were smaller than they were saying.
Then to cap it the Brazilaian found several more big fields and confirmed some earlier finds .

The difference is Brazil the so called backward country with a lowwer education than Ireland exports both oil and Bio fuels and is tottaly independent of the outside oil companies .

Not like good old Ireland sure what odds we pay some 6 billion a year to outside energy companies including oil companies.Sure were rich we got high property values and a thriving pig market.We don't need to even farm 1/3 of our best land just put those farmer on the scratch.
Who needs bio fuels it so low tech yesterday stuff only fit for third world powers .Don't we Irish do astronaut stuff in NASA with FAS.
Next stop the moon Whheee:rolleyes:

Well you might be happy to give 6 billion away every year when there is no need to. So what bright ideas do you have to stop 6 billion going away to Russia or Arab regions ?

Lets face it a 6th grader can see if we put eneogh wind tubines in ROI when the wind blows we can have 100% electricty supply solutions.
When the wind don't blow we don't got no electric power.The egg head with his new theme is throwing out a curved ball solution easy in maths make a big enough dam to store power in between wind strong or weak cycles and then when there is no wind and we can run the power all the time.
Then the check the real world map break up the big dam into several small dams and Viola we got a cast iron solution.
Lot of high profile new media crap and a few weeks later all forgotten about and research will be in the archives of some college somewhere.

Now that's what I call real good Irish science it will do Ireland a lot of good for future energy requirements.

The news articale is pretensious typical science talking down to us plebs not specific eneough with any real partner in crime that will actually step up to the plate to do any of this grand plan .It shows no signs of having joined the dots and probably doesn't solve the transport emmissions issue.

Given a choice between the BRAZIL Bio fuel solutions that works very well after 30 plus years and the Irish Science pontifications about pie in the sky stuff with no real backers I figure a monkey see monkey do science might serve us a whole lot better .

Now I ant against this wind turbine project going hell for leather and solving our electric fuel need in ten years and helping to stop the 6 billion euro imports. But I don't see any thing accept one pontifiaction in a few news papers.Like where is the backers and Bankers and builders all there with cash in hand to make it happen

Or we can start with a nice low tech getting few farmers to start growing more bio fuels and making a severe tax regime against imported fuels .Eg with solutions like every time the price of oil drop a 10 cent s a liter the oil companies have to subsidise the bio fuels 30 cents a liter so as to make bio fuels even cheaper and always to ensure that bio fuels are ~30% cheaper than oil products . Eventualy Iol products for transport will be gone and lots of farmers wont be on the scratch .If in the mean time the wind turbine dam project got going even better then we would be close to 100% not importing oil gas coal whatever.

Here is a guy who know a lot about the USA oil companies and who really bashes the oil companies there only becuase he want the USA to have much cheaper oil.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147&hl=en

Me I bash oil companies period as I don't want to have a tax rate hike in few years time to pay for the CO2 emmisions we Plebs tax payers signed up for in Kyoto. Letting oil coal and gas to imported or even burned if we found the filthy stuff in ROI would still mean we would have to fork out extra for the down stream costs long after the energy companies mostly oil in the case of ROI had made their profits

Here is another example of what the oil companies can do and often choose to do with the profits

a link with a shorter readable version of what is said by Greg Palast on the you tube film

http://www.gregpalast.com/obama%E2%80%99s-secret-war-profiteering-tax/

Armed madhouse part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS-YsE6xByc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS-YsE6xByc

Armed madhouse part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RspclefR0B8&feature=related

Armed madhouse part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMMrKpBnGco&feature=related

Armed madhouse part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naQnoALlG9E&feature=related

Armed madhouse part 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOJ_tWY3414

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOJ_tWY3414

Armed madhouse part 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgl5kN_T760&feature=related

But I am consitant I bash most everything so your oil companies which you so love to give your money to are only one of many targets

Oh and just to show I don't only look the peak oil is a myth this is bone for you to pick on where they pick on the journaistic abilities of the reporter Greg Palast to say the peak oil is a myth

http://www.richardheinberg.com/museletter/171

fairs fair I read tons of stuff both sides

Derry

derry · 10-12-2008 08:07PM

djpbarry wrote: »

How exactly? Give me some figures on this.
How are we being “conned” exactly? Oil companies provide the oil, people buy it; where’s the con?
:rolleyes: Yeah, sure. Look at all these potential money-spinners. Nothing of any use to society there, eh?
Well you seem to think we can all live happily ever after on biofuels.
Where do I find this tree?
You seem to be confusing “electronics” with “manufacturing”.
I suggest you actually read up on what research is being undertaken in Ireland before you dismiss it so easily.

And is it really necessary for your posts to be so ridiculously long?

Ok short and sweet .
I am refering to electronic hi tech desine departments with 50 plus top engineers exiting stage left to cheaper parts of the world.

If I got to go look up what Irish science is doing they got the problem How come they are not in the face with the real info.Maybe Irish science prefer the grand pontifictions like this news artical triggers where there is no base line measures and no accountability if it fails to happen at all.
Or is it the rates of pay in Science are so crap that the real good tech guys are not here at all and all we have is the dead beats doing nick nack research and the odd time when we hit something half good they sell it ASAP to some other big country and we import the finished goods at high prices.
Irish science has the problem not me I ant go no big problem except why does fuel cost so much.
Worse nearly all is imported . Why is fuel so polluting .Why does science more often than not, not suppling real solutions to real problems .
Also why are so many Garda protecting a oil company gas pipeline in the west of Ireland??

These potential money-spinners.??? Who tracks the results of the se projects and shows investment returns ratios and who made the real money.Potensial is squat it profits from past potensials I seen lots fly out of ROI to other climes.lets not forget counting good old Denis in Malta

Coofee is smelling soo good in Brazil

Derry

davty10 · 10-12-2008 08:07PM

derry wrote: »

Thats a typical responce.
First who drills for oil.Who keeps the data on what they find .Who knows all the data now. If you are sitting on the mother load of oil lets say 100 years supply what happens when you tell the world we got 100 years supply. The price falls off a cliff as why to pay a lot for a abundant stuff.Its more clever to say it is scarce and then nail the twots for more money

So seeing as most government accept the porkies the oil companies tell them about reserves then the problem is to know the real facts

So we employ a lot of brain dead scientists who collect all the data the oil companies supply them with.Naturally the data is slanted and the dip sticks arrive at the logical conclussion the that oil is running out.

Now when we look at other things we see that the so called oil peak is a moving target . It always like a carrot in front of a donkey.Now dip stick scientists still haven't copped that and accept the oil reserve data figures decade after decade and yet we never ever get to this mythical peak oiltarget.
We always seem to sudenly find that new big field just in time
What was the last big find Brazil I think .Where is next big suprise oil field find Indonesia???

Three card trick merchants like the oil trade can run circles around brain dead scientists .
Being PC wont solve the issue because your dealing with an entity the oil companies who have unlimited oil reserves which might run out in thousand years.
So egg heads who are so stupid to fall for the same trick decade after decade are hardly going to supply the real solutions as all the nice techy solutions are zip when your dealing with outright enslavers who wish us to remain enslaved to the black stuff for as long as possible

But dream on the oil running out .They been predicting oil was running out when they drilled the first wells in 1900. Still hasn't run out .

Once you understand that the oil companies have unlimited oil then you cop the truth .Your never going to get an oil free solution as long as the mantra is oil will run out.What works is what Brazil did and say we pissed to be ripped off every which way and even it costs more we will make a non oil importing solution .30 years later they proved it works but Ireland still swallows the oil company mantra bio fuels dont work and we import 90 % of our energy needs and train 3000 useles scientists a year

Wake up the cofee is soooo good in Brazil

Derry

I do not profess to be an expert in the energies field but what you are saying is completely unfounded and almost bordering on a conspiracy theory. Oil running out is only one factor in the drive for sustainability, others factors will come into play such as tax incentive for organisations that comply with sustainability initiatives and adopt new policies etc. Its doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure that we cannot continue to consume a resource in the exponentially increasing amounts that we are before it disappears. Secondly its a natural progression of man kind , we have progressed from steam to nuclear energy..its inevitable mankind will continue to evolve and seek out alternative energy sources.

Ireland could be energy independent in under a decade

Comments