Driving under the influence

LegacyUser · 24-11-2008 02:11PM #1

Hi

I have a problem. On friday night I went to the pub with the lads for a few drinks. I went really early, and was drunk quite early on. We left the pub at about 11pm, and went back to a mates house and had some more to drink. At about 12.30am we all decided to call it a night, we had been out drinking since 8pm and were hammered!!

I decided to go back to the girlfriends house, so hopped in a taxi, and headed over there. When I arrived, it turned out she was actually out herself, and there was no answer from the door. I had no money to get home, and it was too far to walk, so I decided to wait. I had no jacket and was freezing, so I hopped into my car (which I had driven over there earlier, knowing that I would be staying at hers that night) to keep warm. Still freezing cold, I turned on the ignition to get a bit of heat into myself, it was 1am at this stage and all I had was a t-shirt. Ii should add I didnt have my phone with me so I couldnt call her to see where she was.

Well, you can see where this is going...the gardai pull up, apparently responding to a call that was made. They pull me out of the van (not literally) handcuff me, bring me to a cell, breathalise me and charge me with the intent to drive under the influence!!

You have no idea how mad I am about this. Now I want to get two things clear here. Im NOT looking for legal advice, I know I have to get a solicitor. and also, I was not driving the car, and had no intention to, I despise drunk drivers.

My situation is very unfortunate, as I understand I don't really have much of a case here. I am going to talk to a solicitor, Im wondering if anyone can recommend any in the Dublin area who deal with drink driving charges on a regular basis, or if anyone can tell me how to find this out. Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I have no experience with this kind of thing, and Im very worried because if I get disqualified I lose my job.

The gardai told me I can expect a 4 year ban. Im really worried about this, Im wondering if anyone can give me any advise as to what happens in circumstances like this? What other action should I take apart from getting a solicitor? Should I contact the taxi firm I got the cab from?

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks

John Mason · 24-11-2008 02:41PM

Once you have the keys in the ignition, you are considered drunk and in charge of the car.

Get a solicitor and he might be able to get the ban reduced

froosh69 · 24-11-2008 02:54PM

aw no! bad luck!

maybe if you could get in contact with the taxi driver who dropped you to your gf house...if you were chatting to him on the way, he could be a witness...

LegacyUser · 24-11-2008 02:56PM

pink fluffy bunny wrote: »

Once you have the keys in the ignition, you are considered drunk and in charge of the car.

Get a solicitor and he might be able to get the ban reduced

Thanks for the reply, and I really don't mean to sound rude when I say this, but I know that. I know that although what I did was innocent, as far as the gardai knew I was just some idiot who had decided to get into the car and drive off. I wasnt aware of the law until friday night by the way, but I do understand it and accept why she cuffed me. However, I am angry at the thought that had I driven the car, Id be gone out of the estate by the time she had gotten around to me. I would never have done that, but it gets to me that by doing the right thing I still get done!!

However, I cant change what has happened. Im just wondering if anyone knows the normal course of action for something like this. Surely its not a four year ban?? Again, this might be a silly question, but can anyone give a ROUGH idea of how much a decent solicitor would cost for something like this? I know that might be hard to guess, but do they charge by the hour/ day... a rough estimate, am I talking 500euro or 2000euro?? I have no idea, and to be honest, would feel stupid strolling into a solicitor without a single clue, so I came here to get a rough idea just so Im not going in looking like a complete dope!!

I personally know of a man on the road I live on who drink drives regularly, has been doing so for a long time, and has never been caught. I mean, Ive heard of guys being pulled over who were pissed drunk and the keys were just taken off them and they collected the car the next day. And theres me, who was genuinely not doing anything wrong, and they're going to ruin my life for the next four years for it.

And no, ruining my life is not an exaggeration, I am going to be as good as a convicted drunk driver, Im going to have a criminal record now, no matter how small, I will be banned from the road, I will lose my job, not to mention the stigma attached to being drunk and behind the wheel. Im very bitter about this at the moment.

seamus · 24-11-2008 02:58PM

As far as I know, this is a slightly different charge than if you'd been found actually driving the car while pissed, but the penalties can still be quite severe.

The only person who can really answer your questions is a solicitor, who will be able to tell you how to put the best spin on your story.

maybe if you could get in contact with the taxi driver who dropped you to your gf house...if you were chatting to him on the way, he could be a witness...

This is irrelevant really. He's not being charged because the Garda thinks he drove to his location. If anything, the taxi might prove worse if he says that the OP seemed to be very drunk.

SuperGrover · 24-11-2008 03:00PM

a mate of mine went through the same thing a few years back. i was in the passenger seat. we were waiting outside a pub for some other people and were going to walk around to a house party. sat in the car, ignition on, keeping warm.

i was called as a witness by defense solicitor and testified that he had no intention of driving, that we were just waiting for some people.

case was dismissed due to this. the judge could see that we were being honest, the gardai were not happy.

24-11-2008 03:02PM

In my opinion,the drunk in charge of a vehicle when you are not driving it is ridiculous but a part of the statutes unfortunately.
You have my sympathies for what it's worth on that.

Your solicitor will advise.Yes contact the taxi driver.It is highly likely that you will get a ban unfortunately though.

lemon125 · 24-11-2008 03:02PM

Were you in the front seat sitting up or lying down in the back?
This happened a friend i knew and he was lying down asleep in the back seat during christmas in a car park. No car around and he was done, think 2/3 years off the road. It caused uproar as there is and still are people in our locality getting off while pissed drunk driving on technicalities left right and centre. I think its harsh but I remember the judge saying that there is a very high possibility that he would have driven home once he had woken up the next morning, so maybe if your car was outside your GF place you can say you would have went in there once you woke up?

24-11-2008 03:06PM

Lemon125 makes a very good point.

Have you phone records to say that you spoke to your GF when she wasn't there?
Keep that record as she told you to waith that she'd be back soon like

LegacyUser · 24-11-2008 03:08PM

SuperGrover wrote: »

a mate of mine went through the same thing a few years back. i was in the passenger seat. we were waiting outside a pub for some other people and were going to walk around to a house party. sat in the car, ignition on, keeping warm.

i was called as a witness by defense solicitor and testified that he had no intention of driving, that we were just waiting for some people.

case was dismissed due to this. the judge could see that we were being honest, the gardai were not happy.

So they guy had drink on him and all when he was in the driver's seat? See I have no witness,but I could get in touch with the taxi driver and get him to verify that he dropped me to my gf's house. When the gardai picked me up I explained that she lived in the house across the road and wasnt there. As they brought me to the cell I explained the whole thing, and the male garda believed me, the female garda still processed it all though. When they dropped me back to the gf's house, they actually remarked "Oh look, her car is here, she's back now" So they did believe my story, but are taking me to court anyway!! Unbelievable!!

I'm not trying to be cheap, I genuinely can't afford to pay a solicitor. Would it be wise to go it alone, represent myself so to speak, and then pay out for a solicitor if I have to appeal the decision?

LegacyUser · 24-11-2008 03:13PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Lemon125 makes a very good point.

Have you phone records to say that you spoke to your GF when she wasn't there?
Keep that record as she told you to waith that she'd be back soon like

I had no intention of going home, because my bedroom is being redecorated and Ive no bed! To be honest, if I was going to go home after discovering she wasnt there, Id have been gone by the time the gardai showed up!! I was in the front seat, but was asleep. I was thinking though that this proves nothing, because for all they knew I was intending to drive but was so pissed that I fell asleep!

I never spoke to the gf because I didnt have the phone on me. The heart wrenching thing about it all is that had I got the phone with me, I would have called her only for her to tell me that she had anticipated me coming home early, because I was out since 8, and she had actually left her keys for me under the mat at the front door.

Bluetonic · 24-11-2008 03:15PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Lemon125 makes a very good point.

Have you phone records to say that you spoke to your GF when she wasn't there?
Keep that record as she told you to waith that she'd be back soon like

Unregistered wrote: »

Ii should add I didnt have my phone with me so I couldnt call her to see where she was.

:rolleyes:

aidan24326 · 24-11-2008 03:16PM

Get yourself a good solicitor who has experience with this type of thing.

Something similiar happened to my dad once, sat into the car to ring my mother to come and collect him, and was done with intent to drive. His
solicitor got him off, though I'm not sure if the keys were actually in the ignition. If you had the keys in the ignition they can convict you, but a good solicitior may find a technicality somewhere. That's your only hope.

It's harsh but the law is there for a reason, and you can see how the gardai might assume you intended to drive, as I'd hazard a guess that a significant % of people in that situation would drive the car. It's worth contesting though as you do have a case to argue so find yourself a good solicitior and hope for the best.

kayos · 24-11-2008 03:24PM

Have seen people leaving a pub going to the car to get their jacket out and getting pulled for intent to drive! That was while I worked in said pub and yes we had a few stupid people who would drive with drink in them but one of the guys caught never did his car was left out the front and he would collect it on the way back from mass on a Sunday. Best get some legal advice even if from one of the freebie places.

Surely this is something that would be very tricky to gain a conviction on, fair enough if you had the seat belt on, engine on and were checking your mirror to pull off when they found you. But come on your sitting in your car to keep warm and bam they can put you off the road on their belief that you intended to drive? Thats like doing some one for intention to get drunk and disorderly when they are just walking into a pub! They might be tea totallers for heavens sake.

LegacyUser · 24-11-2008 03:25PM

aidan24326 wrote: »

Get yourself a good solicitor who has experience with this type of thing.

Something similiar happened to my dad once, sat into the car to ring my mother to come and collect him, and was done with intent to drive. His
solicitor got him off, though I'm not sure if the keys were actually in the ignition. If you had the keys in the ignition they can convict you, but a good solicitior may find a technicality somewhere. That's your only hope.

It's harsh but the law is there for a reason, and you can see how the gardai might assume you intended to drive, as I'd hazard a guess that a significant % of people in that situation would drive the car. It's worth contesting though as you do have a case to argue so find yourself a good solicitior and hope for the best.

I do understand why the law is there, usually a person who is drunk only ever finds themselves in their car with the ignition on when they intend to drive it. Thats fair enough. But the gardai are renowned for using their discretion in this country, and if ever there was a time to use it, this was it as far as Im concerned. It was obvious even to them that I was telling the truth. My case is an exception to that rule.

Boskowski · 24-11-2008 03:30PM

aidan24326 wrote: »

It's harsh but the law is there for a reason, and you can see how the gardai might assume you intended to drive, as I'd hazard a guess that a significant % of people in that situation would drive the car. It's worth contesting though as you do have a case to argue so find yourself a good solicitior and hope for the best.

To the OP I might say, 'unlucky, good luck, seriously'.

But more so on the actual regulations. It strikes me as a bit weird.
I mean if you think about it. Not only can they not prove that I've been driving, no, in fact I haven't been driving at all, but they assume I was going to drive, which of course they also can't prove. And which - in this case - I wasn't going to do either - and still they can get you a conviction. That's actually insane if you think about it.

I mean I always thought you can get done for things you actually did or in some cases for things you planned to do and you were carrying out preparations for. But to get done for something the Guards assume you were going to do...? Just on the grounds that others in the same situations are likely to do it?

Drummerboy08 · 24-11-2008 03:33PM

I can see how it looked to the passing gardai - man sitting in car with ignition on, breathalysed, done for drink driving. I'm not taking a swipe at Gardai, i know all the work they do, but hopefully some common sense will be used here - IF you really had no attention of driving.

LegacyUser · 24-11-2008 03:36PM

realcam wrote: »

To the OP I might say, 'unlucky, good luck, seriously'.

But more so on the actual regulations. It strikes me as a bit weird.
I mean if you think about it. Not only can they not prove that I've been driving, no, in fact I haven't been driving at all, but they assume I was going to drive, which of course they also can't prove. And which - in this case - I wasn't going to do either - and still they can get you a conviction. That's actually insane if you think about it.

I mean I always thought you can get done for things you actually did or in some cases for things you planned to do and you were carrying out preparations for. But to get done for something the Guards assume you were going to do...? Just on the grounds that others in the same situations are likely to do it?

you make a good point, and I agree with you. I understand the idea of the law, but surely they cant do this, because they are wrong, I wasnt going to drive. And that seems to be the case with alot of people who were in similar situations. The gardai are getting it wrong, not all of the times, obviously, but innocent people are suffering because of what the 'average' person 'might' do. Its incredible. I wonder too if they had been sitting watching me for a while beforehand, to see if I was going to move, or what.

LegacyUser · 24-11-2008 03:48PM

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

IF you really had no attention of driving.

I didnt, but from listening to everyone here, I dont think that comes into it at all. It sounds like its all going to depend on the judge on the day. I could have had every intention of driving and give a sob story and get off or else I could tell the truth and he wont believe me. It is the most frustrating thing in the world!! I have always said I dont know how people who are in jail for crimes they didnt commit cope. I know this isnt that serious at all, but I feel that helpless, its completely out of my hands, and if the judge is a pr*ck, then I lose my car, licence, job, money...

the gf keeps telling me that it will be okay, and that the truth will come out, but this is one of them "my word against theirs" cases where a young 25yr old male (the very type they would expect this behaviour from) goes up against the gardai (those troopers) to try convince them he's not a scumbag.

Not that Im too sure whether this has anything to do with it, but the gf rents in a bad enough area where joyriding and burned out cars are kinda the norm! They would probably tend to not believe me because of the area??

Bottle_of_Smoke · 24-11-2008 04:40PM

Unregistered wrote: »

So they guy had drink on him and all when he was in the driver's seat? See I have no witness,but I could get in touch with the taxi driver and get him to verify that he dropped me to my gf's house. When the gardai picked me up I explained that she lived in the house across the road and wasnt there. As they brought me to the cell I explained the whole thing, and the male garda believed me, the female garda still processed it all though. When they dropped me back to the gf's house, they actually remarked "Oh look, her car is here, she's back now" So they did believe my story, but are taking me to court anyway!! Unbelievable!!

I'm not trying to be cheap, I genuinely can't afford to pay a solicitor. Would it be wise to go it alone, represent myself so to speak, and then pay out for a solicitor if I have to appeal the decision?

F*cking hell, they really must have nothing better to be doing. If I was a guard I'd just tell people the story with the law. The idea that so much costs and time is wasted due to crap like this really makes you wonder about the type of people they choose to be gardai.

Bet this would never happen in England.

To answer your question, get a loan for a solicitor. How could you pay for an appeal solicitor if you can't afford one first time round.

You really have my sympathies & I wish you the best of luck

Duckjob · 24-11-2008 04:54PM

realcam wrote: »

To the OP I might say, 'unlucky, good luck, seriously'.

But more so on the actual regulations. It strikes me as a bit weird.
I mean if you think about it. Not only can they not prove that I've been driving, no, in fact I haven't been driving at all, but they assume I was going to drive, which of course they also can't prove. And which - in this case - I wasn't going to do either - and still they can get you a conviction. That's actually insane if you think about it.

I mean I always thought you can get done for things you actually did or in some cases for things you planned to do and you were carrying out preparations for. But to get done for something the Guards assume you were going to do...? Just on the grounds that others in the same situations are likely to do it?

Yep, it's getting into 'Minority Report' territory, methinks.

seamus · 24-11-2008 04:58PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

F*cking hell, they really must have nothing better to be doing. If I was a guard I'd just tell people the story with the law. The idea that so much costs and time is wasted due to crap like this really makes you wonder about the type of people they choose to be gardai.

In another circumstance, people would be berating the Gardai for not clamping down on people who do this.

The purpose of the law is to remove any ambiguity from the whole thing. If you had to actually catch people driving while they were pissed, then you put a lot of people at risk. If you can make it an offence to "intend" to drive a vehicle, then all you have to do is catch them in the driver's seat of the vehicle with the keys.

Of course, none of this helps the OP. It's a mistake a lot of people could make and have made with a few pints on them - your judgement is clouded and you're much more likely to think "ah feck it, sure the Guards won't arrest me for just sitting in the car". It's this exact kind of thinking which causes some people to then think, "Sure I only live down the road, it'll be grand if I go slow".

For the OP, his best course of action is to get a solicitor, whatever it costs. From having a brief look at the various acts in force, it would appear that a six month driving ban is mandatory for a conviction on this offence. But I could be wrong. In any case, paying a solicitor has to be better than losing your job and your licence.

Bet this would never happen in England.

It happens all the time in England.

LegacyUser · 24-11-2008 04:58PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

F*cking hell, they really must have nothing better to be doing. If I was a guard I'd just tell people the story with the law. The idea that so much costs and time is wasted due to crap like this really makes you wonder about the type of people they choose to be gardai.

Bet this would never happen in England.

To answer your question, get a loan for a solicitor. How could you pay for an appeal solicitor if you can't afford one first time round.

You really have my sympathies & I wish you the best of luck

Thanks, sounds like I need all the luck I can get.

My thinking behind the solicitor thing was that I would try win the case myself and if not then I would get a loan to pay the solicitor. Does an appeal solicitor cost more?

LegacyUser · 24-11-2008 05:06PM

seamus wrote: »

In another circumstance, people would be berating the Gardai for not clamping down on people who do this.

The purpose of the law is to remove any ambiguity from the whole thing. If you had to actually catch people driving while they were pissed, then you put a lot of people at risk. If you can make it an offence to "intend" to drive a vehicle, then all you have to do is catch them in the driver's seat of the vehicle with the keys.

Of course, none of this helps the OP. It's a mistake a lot of people could make and have made with a few pints on them - your judgement is clouded and you're much more likely to think "ah feck it, sure the Guards won't arrest me for just sitting in the car". It's this exact kind of thinking which causes some people to then think, "Sure I only live down the road, it'll be grand if I go slow".

For the OP, his best course of action is to get a solicitor, whatever it costs. From having a brief look at the various acts in force, it would appear that a six month driving ban is mandatory for a conviction on this offence. But I could be wrong. In any case, paying a solicitor has to be better than losing your job and your licence.

It happens all the time in England.

As it happens, I completely agree with the intent thing, it doesn't make sense to let these people on the road and possibly harm others before arresting them. However, with a charge as ambiguous as 'intent', it shouldnt be as simple as 'no, youre guilty, we can read your mind' Not when so much is at stake for an innocent person

Duckjob · 24-11-2008 05:20PM

seamus wrote: »

In another circumstance, people would be berating the Gardai for not clamping down on people who do this.

The purpose of the law is to remove any ambiguity from the whole thing. If you had to actually catch people driving while they were pissed, then you put a lot of people at risk. If you can make it an offence to "intend" to drive a vehicle, then all you have to do is catch them in the driver's seat of the vehicle with the keys.

Ok, but look at it another way:

Somebody finds themselves in a situation where there are pissed, and have their car with them. They may think:

"if I drive home I might get done for it. But if I do the right thing and curl up inside to sleep it off, I might still get done anyway. So, in for a penny, in for a pound: I may as well chance it"

andrewh5 · 24-11-2008 05:27PM

Both in the Uk and here, the minute the key goes into the ignition you are deemed under law to be in control of the vehicle - whether you intend to drive it or not.

All you can do is plead your case and hope you get a sympathetic judge.

Turner · 24-11-2008 05:34PM

To the OP, check out this link.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0050.html

Its the act you were arrested under. Its up to the Gardai to prove in court that you intended to drive.

Starting the car or havin the engine on does not show you intended to drive, as you said the reason you had the engine on was to keep warm.

All these storys of people being convicted after sleeping in the boot, the passenger seat, with keys in his pocket, keys under the fecking car ect, are absoulte rubbish.

Its up to you and your solicitor to prove you werent intending to drive the car. This could be as simple as saying in court "i had no intention of driving the car judge, i have never drank and drove i simply turned on the engine to get some heat going" Then its up to the gardai to prove you were. If they cant it will be dismissed.

The judge will decide. Bring your girlfriend into court and get her to say you were staying in her house.

These cases are very hard for the gardai to win in court, i should know i am one.

Best of luck and remember it is not a criminal offence you have been charged with, its simply a road traffic offence and you will not have a criminal record if convicted.

LegacyUser · 24-11-2008 05:45PM

if the person is in the driving seat and the engine is on then the person is in charge of the vehicle.it is illegal to be in charge of a vehicle when drunk

Turner · 24-11-2008 06:02PM

Check the link in my post above.

Look for these words intent to drive or attempt to drive the vehicle

Its only an offence if you do the above. Starting an engine for heat alone is a good defence.

copperfacegaz · 24-11-2008 06:12PM

Unregistered wrote: »

if the person is in the driving seat and the engine is on then the person is in charge of the vehicle.it is illegal to be in charge of a vehicle when drunk

You were arrested under Section 50 Road Traffic Act ,,, "Drunk in Charge of a MPV" ,, What did your reading come back on the breathyliser ?? 35mg/100ml of alcohol is the legal limit ,, if you came back under 62mg your probably looking at a year off the road and a fine so im curious as to where you got the 4 year ban from ?? if your as broke as you say you are you can apply for free legal aid to the judge on the first court date , the judge will decide whether he will grant you free legal aid based on your circumstances (income , dependants etc ).
If you are seeking a solicitor for this you can always get one in the courts on the date when u explain to the judge that you dont have a solicitor yet he will adjourn the case till u get a solicitor ( they are the suits lurking over your back licking their lips )... best of luck with this !

24-11-2008 06:20PM

this is such bad luck op... just thinking i'd so the exact same if i was locked out of my house but had car keys. wouldn't risk it now..

make sure the solicitor and judge know exactly how cold it was.. if it was a warm summers night and a guy told me he did it for heat, i wouldnt believe him. but if it was genuinely cold, i'd listen to the rest of his story.

Driving under the influence

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