Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Are Athiests evil?

Options
12357…23

Comments

  • Options
    #122
    condra
    Registered Users Posts: 3,849 ✭✭✭condra


    Oh good. Right, I'm off out to do some shoplifting.


  • Options
    #123
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Its the "only" bit though isn't it.

    [H]As anyone ever lead a life and not become deserving of Hell? If it was relatively simple task to do what was the point of Jesus?
    Yeah, fair point. Having said that, Jesus said He came to save sinners, not the righteous which I suppose means that everyone isn't destined for Hell without Jesus' redemption.


  • Options
    #124
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    womoma wrote: »
    Unfortunatly, I think a lot of Christians consider their faith a "licence to judge"
    Well, they've been told and most seem to believe, that they're communicating (directly or indirectly) with the creator of the universe and the ultimate lawgiver. It's understandable that this gives them, in their own eyes at least, the ability to judge anyone and anything.
    womoma wrote: »
    In my opinion, many religious people need to stop dealing in absolutes!
    It's easy to deal in absolutes because a nuanced view of a world which acknowledges that things are rarely black and white takes time and effort to acquire. It also takes a sympathy for the other person which I think is quite difficult to maintain, if you believe even mildly, that the other person is under the influence of evil spirits.

    Religion legitimizes this dealing in absolutes, and it's difficult to separate the two.


  • Options
    #125
    Mal-Adjusted
    Registered Users Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭Mal-Adjusted


    rockbeer wrote: »
    Fanny, why are you quite happy to agree "that the notion of fairies in untrue" but not "that the notion of god is untrue" when there is a precisely equal amount of evidence for the existence of each?
    well...not to push anybodies buttons here, but there is just as much evidence that Julius Ceacer(sp?), cleopatra and Alexander the great were around, yet nobody denies their existence...just something to get everyone thinking:D

    In other news, i suspect the op may be trying to set up a flame war. why elsewouldan atheist start a thread asking if atheists were all evil(which he and everyone else damn well knows they're not) in a christian board (which he damn well knows atheists will visit)


  • Options
    #126
    --amadeus--
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,096 ✭✭✭--amadeus--


    Mal-Adjusted wrote: »
    well...not to push anybodies buttons here, but there is just as much evidence that Julius Ceacer(sp?), cleopatra and Alexander the great were around, yet nobody denies their existence...just something to get everyone thinking:D

    In other news, i suspect the op may be trying to set up a flame war. why elsewouldan atheist start a thread asking if atheists were all evil(which he and everyone else damn well knows they're not) in a christian board (which he damn well knows atheists will visit)

    Actually there is a great deal more evidence of the people you have mentioned, both in monuments and archeological remains and historical accounts.

    And I wasn't attempting to establish a flame war - a 9 page thread conducted in a 99% mature manner is hardly proof of that but do feel free to report the original post or thread. Why did I set it up? Many athiets are curious as to why believers believe, an extension of that is why do beliervers think non-believers don't believe. Not hard to understand I would have thought?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #127
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Mal-Adjusted wrote: »
    well...not to push anybodies buttons here, but there is just as much evidence that Julius Ceacer(sp?), cleopatra and Alexander the great were around, yet nobody denies their existence...just something to get everyone thinking:D

    that isn't really true. but even if it were not many people place their eternal salvation and moral basis on the need for Caesar to be a historical person ...


  • Options
    #128
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    Mal-Adjusted wrote: »
    well...not to push anybodies buttons here, but there is just as much evidence that Julius Ceacer(sp?), cleopatra and Alexander the great were around, yet nobody denies their existence...just something to get everyone thinking

    Sorry but not much thinking required here at all.

    Hard evidence for god = none
    Hard evidence for aforementioned historical characters = lots

    I think you might have a quite different idea what constitutes evidence to most of us.


  • Options
    #129
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Mal-Adjusted wrote: »
    well...not to push anybodies buttons here, but there is just as much evidence that Julius Ceacer(sp?), cleopatra and Alexander the great were around, yet nobody denies their existence...just something to get everyone thinking:D
    Coincidentally, Julius Caesar was also divinized after his death, although you don't hear of too many people worshiping statues of him with a knife in his back. :)


  • Options
    #130
    Mal-Adjusted
    Registered Users Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭Mal-Adjusted


    Dades wrote: »
    Coincidentally, Julius Caesar was also divinized after his death, although you don't hear of too many people worshiping statues of him with a knife in his back. :)
    really? intiresting. never knew that before:D


  • Options
    #131
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    kelly1 said:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Wicknight
    My understanding, and correct me if I am wrong, is that a core tenent of Christianity is that everyone is ultimately wicked. We are all deserving of hell fire.
    I wouldn't go quite that far!

    Jesus taught that only God is good meaning that all goodness comes from God. It's God's grace that makes us good and the absence of His grace renders us incapable of loving and being good.

    People only become deserving of Hell when they deliberately reject God's grace through grave sin. We don't deserve hell for taking a biscuit without asking!
    I have to disagree with Noel here. The greater sins merit greater punishment in hell, but any sin is enough to merit hell:
    James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.”Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

    Jesus also said that no man gets to heaven except he is born again. That surely means everyone has enough sin to warrant hell.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Wicknight
    Its the "only" bit though isn't it.

    [H]As anyone ever lead a life and not become deserving of Hell? If it was relatively simple task to do what was the point of Jesus?
    Yeah, fair point. Having said that, Jesus said He came to save sinners, not the righteous which I suppose means that everyone isn't destined for Hell without Jesus' redemption.
    Jesus did not mean some are righteous enough to go to heaven and that only sinners like the tax-collectors and whores needed to be saved. The 'righteous' He was contrasting the sinners with were the Pharisees - those He had the severest condemnations of:
    Luke 5:27 After these things He went out and saw a tax collector named Levi, sitting at the tax office. And He said to him, “Follow Me.” 28 So he left all, rose up, and followed Him.
    29 Then Levi gave Him a great feast in his own house. And there were a great number of tax collectors and others who sat down with them. 30 And their scribes and the Pharisees complained against His disciples, saying, “Why do You eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?”
    31 Jesus answered and said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

    Matthew 23:27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #132
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Dades wrote: »
    Julius Caesar was also divinized after his death, although you don't hear of too many people worshiping statues of him with a knife in his back.
    And it was Alexander the Great who caught that from the Persians, and via him, ultimately to the Romans. Who started doing it with Caesar, who also held the office of high priest of Rome, the Pontifex Maximus, a title held today by the pope. Most of the first ten or fifteen popes were canonized (the christian analog of deification, there being only one god), thus keeping alive the Roman tradition of deifying the recently dead Pontifices. Similarly, the Vatican still won't canonize a living human, presumably lest the saint steal the Vatican's thunder. Which itself is a practice also known in North Korea, where all the state's greatest heroes are also dead.

    And -- make of this what you will -- the Republican Senators who murdered Caesar plunged their daggers while shouting "Libertas!".

    Dull history lesson over :)

    .


  • Options
    #133
    Gambler
    Registered Users Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭Gambler


    @The Discussion about the existence of Jesus:
    Maybe we should take the discussion to http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055417018

    @wolfsbane: Would your position be that unless you are a member of your particular section of Christianity then you are definitely going to Hell? Muslims, Jews, Budhists, Other Christian Denominations are all guaranteed eternal damnation?


  • Options
    #134
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    Cantab. wrote: »
    It's atheists, not athiests...

    Why don't you take your little discussion over to the atheism forum and leave us Christian folk alone?

    I believe atheism and secularism is rooted in evil. Not that the subscribers themselves are inherently evil, just that they're under the influence of sinister forces.


    This display of ignorance is similar to that which turned me away from the church...

    We don't believe in your god or any for that matter so we are evil people? I am not under the influence of any sinister force or the likes, you know why? Because they don't exist... ;)


    I love the references to the bible here, great that we have so much faith in something that was put together so long ago by so many differant people, a very opinionated book in my eyes.


  • Options
    #135
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    Gambler said:
    Would your position be that unless you are a member of your particular section of Christianity then you are definitely going to Hell? Muslims, Jews, Budhists, Other Christian Denominations are all guaranteed eternal damnation?
    Definitely not, if you by your particular section of Christianity you mean Baptist.

    Everyone who repents of their sin and trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation will be saved. That can logically cover individuals in most Protestant denominations, and even those in organisations that are fundamentally heretical (the RCC, Orthodox, Mormons, J.Ws), if they reject the particular heresies of that organisation and hold to the fundamentals of the Christian faith.

    It is more difficult to imagine how a practicising Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist would be able to do so. One cannot worship another deity and worship God.

    It is however very easy for a practising Jew to believe in Jesus as the Messiah and to worship Him as their God and Saviour. Judaism is a wide spectrum, and Messianic Judaism is a well-known part of it. Their fellow Jews of course reject them, but that was true of the apostolic church. They were entirely Jewish for some time. Today many Jews trust in Jesus Christ, some identifying themselves as Messianic Jews, others keep to the historic term Christian.


  • Options
    #136
    Gambler
    Registered Users Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭Gambler


    OK, so it's a belief in Jesus that allows entry to heaven? Whatever about Budhists, surely Muslims would fit the bill too seeing as they do believe in Jesus (They just don't accept that he actually was god, they believe he was sent by god and that his teachings were true)?

    Also as I said does that mean that everyone else is guaranteed eternal damnation? what about a child born of a family that does not accept your position but is too young to speak? Or for that any child of any family that is too young to understand the concept of God & Jesus?


  • Options
    #137
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    Gambler wrote: »
    OK, so it's a belief in Jesus that allows entry to heaven? Whatever about Budhists, surely Muslims would fit the bill too seeing as they do believe in Jesus (They just don't accept that he actually was god, they believe he was sent by god and that his teachings were true)?

    Also as I said does that mean that everyone else is guaranteed eternal damnation? what about a child born of a family that does not accept your position but is too young to speak? Or for that any child of any family that is too young to understand the concept of God & Jesus?
    The belief in Jesus is not merely that such a person existed - but that He is who He claimed to be - the Lamb of God, the Son of God, who died for His people's sins and rose again from the dead, is ascended to the right hand of God His Father and is returning to judge the living and the dead.

    As for those unable to consciously believe - God is not limited by the intellectual ability of any, but can reveal Himself directly to their spirits. It is those who live without God, shutting out the revelation they have from nature and/or the gospel message, who will perish.


  • Options
    #138
    Biro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,091 ✭✭✭Biro


    Griffin Swift Ranch wrote: »
    This display of ignorance is similar to that which turned me away from the church...

    We don't believe in your god or any for that matter so we are evil people? I am not under the influence of any sinister force or the likes, you know why? Because they don't exist... ;)


    I love the references to the bible here, great that we have so much faith in something that was put together so long ago by so many differant people, a very opinionated book in my eyes.

    Opinions, opinions!
    Do you spend time over in the History forum too laughing at those people for taking the word of that which is written in the past?


  • Options
    #139
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    The belief in Jesus is not merely that such a person existed - but that He is who He claimed to be - the Lamb of God, the Son of God, who died for His people's sins and rose again from the dead, is ascended to the right hand of God His Father and is returning to judge the living and the dead.

    Quick question. Is it the actual belief in Jesus (as the Son of God) that is important, or is it simply that one has to obviously believe Jesus was the Son of God to ask for forgiveness from him, and it is the asking for forgiveness that is the important bit (the belief he was Son of God being more of a necessary formality)


  • Options
    #140
    Gambler
    Registered Users Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭Gambler


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    The belief in Jesus is not merely that such a person existed - but that He is who He claimed to be - the Lamb of God, the Son of God, who died for His people's sins and rose again from the dead, is ascended to the right hand of God His Father and is returning to judge the living and the dead.

    As for those unable to consciously believe - God is not limited by the intellectual ability of any, but can reveal Himself directly to their spirits. It is those who live without God, shutting out the revelation they have from nature and/or the gospel message, who will perish.

    Well yes - That was my point on Muslims, they believe that Jesus was who he claimed to be. That's why I wondered if they would be included as you said Jewish people would be?

    On the other point, it's actually that someone who is intelligent enough to know about\have heard about Jesus and does not accept the message as the only way to salvation that will have eternal damnation? If I can expand on that idea, lets say there is a tribe in the amazon that have never had contact with anyone that could bring them the message of Jesus. They are raised by their elders to follow a sun god and have no way of knowing any other way, what would you believe happens in that instance?


  • Options
    #141
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Quick question. Is it the actual belief in Jesus (as the Son of God) that is important, or is it simply that one has to obviously believe Jesus was the Son of God to ask for forgiveness from him, and it is the asking for forgiveness that is the important bit (the belief he was Son of God being more of a necessary formality)
    The latter would cover it best. The gospel is all about repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 20:21b.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #142
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    Gambler wrote: »
    Well yes - That was my point on Muslims, they believe that Jesus was who he claimed to be. That's why I wondered if they would be included as you said Jewish people would be?

    On the other point, it's actually that someone who is intelligent enough to know about\have heard about Jesus and does not accept the message as the only way to salvation that will have eternal damnation? If I can expand on that idea, lets say there is a tribe in the amazon that have never had contact with anyone that could bring them the message of Jesus. They are raised by their elders to follow a sun god and have no way of knowing any other way, what would you believe happens in that instance?
    Muslims do not believe that Jesus was who He claimed to be. They make Him a mere prophet, not the Son of God. They specifically say that God has no Son.

    The heathen who never hear the gospel are lost, just as anyone who hears it and does not obey it. They have creation that declares that God is real, not some idol or sun, moon or stars.

    If they heed that witness and seek for the unknown God, He will send the gospel to them or send them to the gospel. God has His people in every nation and makes sure they hear the gospel at some time, and that they repent and believe.


  • Options
    #143
    Gambler
    Registered Users Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭Gambler


    I'm sorry but by my understanding Muslims Believe that "All creatures are God's children, and those dearest to God are the ones who treat His children kindly." They do not believe that Jesus was the son of god in the same way as I am my fathers son but they do believe that Jesus was sent from God (and even refer to him as the Messiah in some passages as well as believing that when Jesus returns to earth at a time close to the end of the world).
    The heathen who never hear the gospel are lost, just as anyone who hears it and does not obey it. They have creation that declares that God is real, not some idol or sun, moon or stars.

    If they heed that witness and seek for the unknown God, He will send the gospel to them or send them to the gospel. God has His people in every nation and makes sure they hear the gospel at some time, and that they repent and believe.
    So, if someone is in a tribe in the Jungle and God hasn't sent them a messenger then they are doomed to eternal damnation? Also what about the generations that lived before Jesus was born?

    I find this notion to be out of tune with the idea of a loving god? By your rational a man that grows up living a good life, providing to his neighbours when they are in need, caring for his wife and children, believing in God as he understands god to be and trying to better himself, has managed to accidentally live up to all of gods commandments is doomed to eternal damnation just because they have never heard of the bible or Jesus?


  • Options
    #144
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    Biro wrote: »
    Opinions, opinions!
    Do you spend time over in the History forum too laughing at those people for taking the word of that which is written in the past?

    The thing about history is that to be considered valid, references must generally be supported by a range of different materials. An historian is always - and rightly - sceptical about any account based on a single source, or assembled by proponents of just one side of a dispute, the old adage about history being written by the winners notwithstanding. It's a question of corroboration.

    There is also the question of degrees of evidence depending on the nature of what is being claimed.

    If a source says that Queen Victoria took a cab to Parliament we will probably accept it. Why? because

    1. It's a perfectly normal thing to do and
    2. Little significance hangs on it and
    3. There's no reason to lie.

    If the account says she flew down to Westminster we would be more sceptical. We would want corroboration; lots of independent eyewitness accounts, preferably from irrefutable sources; photgraphic evidence if possible. And even then it would be normal to be sceptical, trickery b3eing the most likely explanation.

    Any respectable historian would expect to be laughed at if they defended an outrageous claim such as a resurrection based on a source of doubtful origin.

    Where's the corroboration of the doubtful claims of the New Testament? Where are the eyewitness accounts? Where's the demonstration of non-trickery?

    If Jesus REALLY wanted to demonstrate his divinity, why didn't he do something utterly irrefutable that could be examined by all and that would last for all time? Instead we're stuck with these unverifiable parlour tricks.


  • Options
    #145
    Gambler
    Registered Users Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭Gambler


    Sorry, forget what I said about the commandments, I just read them and they are pretty scary..
    "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments."
    So much for the loving god idea, blew that out with the "I the LORD your God am a jealous God" bit...
    "Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; you shall not do any work—you, or your son or your daughter, or your male or female slave, or your ox or your donkey, or any of your livestock, or the resident alien in your towns, so that your male and female slave may rest as well as you. Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day."
    This bit strikes me as generally saying God's ok with Slaves.. That freaks me right out and again blows out the loving god idea.


  • Options
    #146
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    Gambler wrote: »
    I find this notion to be out of tune with the idea of a loving god? By your rational a man that grows up living a good life, providing to his neighbours when they are in need, caring for his wife and children, believing in God as he understands god to be and trying to better himself, has managed to accidentally live up to all of gods commandments is doomed to eternal damnation just because they have never heard of the bible or Jesus?

    Indeed, and meanwhile a complete b*stard who has never done anything good can achieve eternal salvation by repenting at the last.

    I can no more accept that an intelligent deity would set things up this way than I can accept that an intelligent, thinking person would believe it.


  • Options
    #147
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    Muslims do not believe that Jesus was who He claimed to be.

    That is a bit of a misrepresentation. Your assertion makes it sound like Muslims believe Jesus lied about who he was.

    Muslims do not believe the representation of Jesus that the early Christians presented to the rest of the world through the books of the New Testament. They believe Jesus was truthful about what he was, but that he didn't claim to be the Son of God in the first place.


  • Options
    #148
    Gareth37
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Gareth37


    Gambler wrote: »
    I find this notion to be out of tune with the idea of a loving god? By your rational a man that grows up living a good life, providing to his neighbours when they are in need, caring for his wife and children, believing in God as he understands god to be and trying to better himself, has managed to accidentally live up to all of gods commandments is doomed to eternal damnation just because they have never heard of the bible or Jesus?

    As far as is thought in the Bible those who followed God's teaching's before Christ were saved on His first coming (temporally speaking). Remember that Baptism and belief existed before Christ. From Jesus' death until the end of the world, our generations will be judged on His 2nd coming (temporally speaking).


  • Options
    #149
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    The belief in Jesus is not merely that such a person existed - but that He is who He claimed to be - the Lamb of God, the Son of God,

    He never claimed anything of the sort in your bible. His followers claimed it - not he.


  • Options
    #150
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    Wicknight wrote: »
    That is a bit of a misrepresentation. Your assertion makes it sound like Muslims believe Jesus lied about who he was.
    I don't think anyone in this thread has accused Jesus of lying. Some people have stated (myself included) that he may not have existed and if he did he was merely a man who attempted to teach morality but was not divine. But nobody is accusing him (if he existed) of lying.
    rockbeer wrote: »
    Indeed, and meanwhile a complete b*stard who has never done anything good can achieve eternal salvation by repenting at the last.

    Lol - reminds me of the Simpsons:
    Lisa: "Dad, I don't understand, why have you dedicated yourself to living a life
    of blasphemy?"
    Homer: "Don't worry Lisa, if I'm wrong, I'll repent on my death bed."


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #151
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    rockbeer wrote: »
    I can no more accept that an intelligent deity would set things up this way than I can accept that an intelligent, thinking person would believe it.

    Unacceptable.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement