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Gay marriage

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Comments

  • #452
    jaffa20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,624 ✭✭✭jaffa20


    younge wrote: »
    No your wrong mate. Far from it. I'm a R/C and I belief that marriage is for men and women and yes my uncle is gay but that will not change how I feel. I care about my uncle and his sexual orientation has not meant I've stopped caring about him, I just don't think gay marriage is acceptable, at all! What after that, gay couples adopting children. I'm sorry you think my comments are of a bigot nature. I don't mean to be hurtful, I just want to be blunt.

    I don't think you should have children for fear that you will impose you RC faith and views which derive from that about marriage on to them. I feel they should choose their own faith rather than be born into your background and have beliefs forced upon them. Like your family has imposed on you. I don't mean to be hurtful, I just want to be blunt.


  • #453
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    jaffa20 wrote: »
    I don't think you should have children for fear that you will impose you RC faith and views which derive from that about marriage on to them. I feel they should choose their own faith rather than be born into your background and have beliefs forced upon them. Like your family has imposed on you. I don't mean to be hurtful, I just want to be blunt.

    Many people convert to faith without being raised with it by a family.

    BTW, on RTÉ Questions and Answers they are discussing this now.


  • #454
    whatawaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,911 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Many people convert to faith without being raised with it by a family.

    BTW, on RTÉ Questions and Answers they are discussing this now.

    The Panel are all morons.


  • #455
    jaffa20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,624 ✭✭✭jaffa20


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Many people convert to faith without being raised with it by a family.

    Gays don't choose to be gay, you now? Which is worse?


  • #456
    javaboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,094 ✭✭✭✭javaboy


    dny123456 wrote: »
    Are you sure you know who you're defending. You can see Jakkass' real opinion over in the religion forum... here

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055110987&highlight=homosexual&page=3

    He's presenting a slightly less fundamental opinion here.

    Big shocker! Christian holds typically Christian views. Stop the presses!

    Yes I know who I'm defending. Someone who has stated their opinion and was accused of being a bigot and a homophobe without foundation. As religious people go, he's actually got a very liberal attitude. If someone firmly and absolutely believes that homosexuality is wrong or immoral and yet has no opposition to gay rights including civil partnership, then there is no real basis to call him a bigot or a homophobe and I will continue to defend him.


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  • #457
    CreepingDeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,015 ✭✭✭CreepingDeath


    jaffa20 wrote: »
    I don't think you are a homophobe but you can't deny you fear potential effect we will have on society and the definition of "marriage". That can indirectly interpreted as a fear of homosexuals.

    Although, i think creepingdeath is more guilty than you.

    Where have I expressed fear of homosexuals ?
    If anything I've used cold logic, and being fairly unemotional about the whole thing. I work and play 5-a-side football with one, knew a few in college. I don't have anything personal against individuals.
    But when you start adding the cost of these benefits by 1000 or 10,000 you start losing hospital wards, school teachers, extra buses.

    It's so easy for you to believe everyone who disagrees with you is filled with hate. It's much harder for you to realise that people have thought about it, and wrote it off as a silly idea that they won't pay for.

    My arguments have mostly been about the Irish taxpayer paying for alternative lifestyles. Not just through tax. Who do you think will pay for all the advantages of gays being allowed to marry ?
    The insurance discounts, widow/widower allowances, carers allowances, etc ? That cost will be shared among everyone else.

    Sure, gays they've have already been given the freedom to do whatever they want, now they're after money, benefits and for people to take them seriously by waving a state approved form in front of everyone.

    Anyone who disagrees with a minority group in this day and age is immediately branded a hate filled bigot.

    Never occurs to you that people have the right to have different opinions without being personally attacked and branded for it.


  • #458
    javaboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,094 ✭✭✭✭javaboy


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    I'd be more than happy to hear of a scenario where denying a person the right to do something because of their sexual orientation isn't a result of homophobia.

    Well there's the fact that gay people cannot donate blood in Ireland. That was due to the statistics that showed higher incidences of certain diseases in homosexual males AFAIK. However it is no longer really true so that restriction really needs to be revised. :)

    Homophobia is a (irrational) fear of homosexuals or homosexuality. If a person genuinely believes that homosexuality is wrong or immoral and subsequently denies them for instance membership of their church, it is not homophobia.
    It's a subtle but very important difference. It may be discrimination in a legal sense but it is not homophobia.

    Take the case of a men only golf club. If they deny women membership, it is at worst, discrimination on the basis of gender. It is not a fear of women.

    Do you see the point I'm trying to make?


  • #459
    CreepingDeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,015 ✭✭✭CreepingDeath


    Jaffa20 is a hate-filled heterophobe. It sickens me, it really does.


  • #460
    Karoma
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,396 ✭✭✭✭Karoma


    CreepingDeath wrote: »
    Jaffa20 is a hate-filled heterophobe. It sickens me, it really does.
    Grow up or shut up.



    Jaffa20: be careful. You're rude, and borderline abusive.


  • #461
    jaffa20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,624 ✭✭✭jaffa20


    You have made me see the light Creepingdeath. I bow before your superiority as a member of the minority group of gays and will continue to pay taxes to our government for your superiority is so great that i ask nothing in return.


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  • #462
    javaboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,094 ✭✭✭✭javaboy


    If you two don't stop bickering I'm going to turn this car around and nobody's getting married! :mad:


  • #463
    taibhse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 251 ✭✭taibhse


    I don't know why people are bringing religion into this, it's completely irrelevant as there is separation of church and state in this country.

    Saying that it goes against your religion means nothing, just you imposing your morality on people. What is it about religions hijacking the word marriage anyway? Marriage did exist before the major world religions came about and a lot of the time it was a simple business transaction to cement relationships both within and outside the community.

    Obviously now that definition has changed in that people decide who or even if they will marry themselves. Do all the "christians" believe that future spouses should still be chosen for them by mammy or daddy? You don't own the rights to marriage any more than you own the right to tell other people what they can and can't do.


  • #464
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    jaffa20 wrote: »
    You have made me see the light Creepingdeath. I bow before your superiority as a member of the minority group of gays and will continue to pay taxes to our government for your superiority is so great that i ask nothing in return.

    Here look, you pay taxes for the dole spongers - and i'll cover the costs for whatever it is to support civil rights for gay couples and we'll call it even, ok?


  • #465
    javaboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,094 ✭✭✭✭javaboy


    taibhse wrote: »
    I don't know why people are bringing religion into this, it's completely irrelevant as there is separation of church and state in this country.

    Fair enough but you can't expect people to disregard their own religious views completely. It's part of what makes them who they are and it helps to inform their decisions. So if they are going to be asked whether they would vote for gay marriage then of course they are going to bring religion into it.
    Saying that it goes against your religion means nothing, just you imposing your morality on people.

    In Jakkass' case, he has already said that if gay marriage was voted in, he would accept that the democratic majority has spoken. So he's not imposing his morality on anyone really. Some hard line religious people will but I'd say they would be the minority.


    For those who believe religious people are imposing their morality on others, how do you feel about incestuous marriages? Would anyone object to that and why?


  • #466
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    CreepingDeath wrote: »

    My arguments have mostly been about the Irish taxpayer paying for alternative lifestyles. Not just through tax. Who do you think will pay for all the advantages of gays being allowed to marry ?

    ...until you get to implying its 'abnormal' and the like, usually in the same post. For example -
    Oh well... if the monkeys and dolphins do it.. that puts a different perspective on things rolleyes.gif
    I should start the campaign to be allow people to live in treehouses in Phoneix Park and reduce the tax on bananas.
    Natural implies productive and healthy behaviour
    And where do you get this idea that gay marriage is a fundamental human right ? Equality has it's limits, based on logic.

    Next thing, you'll want to see physically handicapped people playing for Manchester United or something. Yeah, lets include everyone in everything and not take anything seriously anymore.
    The worse case is condemning a kid to being an only child in a gay couple.
    From a purely intellectual level, homosexuality is natures mistake.

    You don't seem too gone on answering questions put to you either.....


  • #467
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    jaffa20 wrote: »
    Gays don't choose to be gay, you now? Which is worse?
    There have been various conflicting scientific reports on the subject, it's by no means clear at present. Mind you choosing to have faith, is an empowering idea for many including myself, so I don't consider it to be any means worse than being homosexual.
    taibhse wrote: »
    Obviously now that definition has changed in that people decide who or even if they will marry themselves. Do all the "christians" believe that future spouses should still be chosen for them by mammy or daddy? You don't own the rights to marriage any more than you own the right to tell other people what they can and can't do.

    There is no Biblical limitation on how to get married, i.e there is nothing saying you must get an arranged marriage. So no I don't believe that they always should, mind you it is up to those being married to decide whether they want an arranged marriage or not. It's not an objection of anywhere near the same level.
    javaboy wrote: »
    Homophobia is a (irrational) fear of homosexuals or homosexuality. If a person genuinely believes that homosexuality is wrong or immoral and subsequently denies them for instance membership of their church, it is not homophobia.
    It's a subtle but very important difference. It may be discrimination in a legal sense but it is not homophobia.

    Take the case of a men only golf club. If they deny women membership, it is at worst, discrimination on the basis of gender. It is not a fear of women.

    Do you see the point I'm trying to make?

    It would have been a good point if people actually did that in churches. For as long as I can remember gay people have been welcomed to come to church and to take part in our community.
    taibhse wrote: »
    I don't know why people are bringing religion into this, it's completely irrelevant as there is separation of church and state in this country.

    Tell me this, do you intend to separate religion from the people. This is what is going to have to happen to stop us considering the ethical gravity of certain decisions for our country. We are given the right to vote, that means the Government wants our opinion on a subject in a referendum. Just as I voted yes in the Lisbon Treaty referendum. As such it's actually irrelevant to me whether there is church - state separation. I don't discard my views at the voting booth.


  • #468
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    javaboy wrote: »
    Well there's the fact that gay people cannot donate blood in Ireland. That was due to the statistics that showed higher incidences of certain diseases in homosexual males AFAIK. However it is no longer really true so that restriction really needs to be revised. :)

    I concur.
    javaboy wrote: »
    Homophobia is a (irrational) fear of homosexuals or homosexuality. If a person genuinely believes that homosexuality is wrong or immoral and subsequently denies them for instance membership of their church, it is not homophobia.
    It's a subtle but very important difference. It may be discrimination in a legal sense but it is not homophobia.

    Take the case of a men only golf club. If they deny women membership, it is at worst, discrimination on the basis of gender. It is not a fear of women.

    Do you see the point I'm trying to make?

    I do, and it's a valid one. Evidently homophobe was the wrong word to use, and I apologise to jakkass because of it.


  • #469
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Just regarding the argument of ''born gay'' and ''alternate lifestyles''.

    Can i ask all the heterosexuals in the room who seem to be of the opinion that being gay is a chosen lifestyle, did you all choose to be straight?


  • #470
    mumhaabu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,031 ✭✭✭mumhaabu


    Homosexuals should not be allowed to get married and Marriage is something between a man and a woman as is love. Homosexuality is disgusting, immoral and how anyone can applaud sodomy is beyond me. No one can be born naturally homosexual it is a mental state of mind caused by too much exposure to the liberal media and the breakdown of traditional conservative Christian values. Homosexuality is sinful and is totally unnatural going against the grain of everything Humanity has achieved since modernity. If all humans became homosexual then humanity would vanish within a few generations.

    Marriage is the vehicle that generates stable families and leads to successful children and good standing within the community. Go to tribes in Africa and other remote secluded locations and you will see Homosexuality is unheard of, it is not something that occurs but it is lifestyle choice and state of mind brought about by decades of left wing brainwashing and the liberal media who glorify's it.


  • #471
    SV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,533 ✭✭✭SV


    mumhaabu wrote: »
    Homosexuals should not be allowed to get married and Marriage is something between a man and a woman as is love. Homosexuality is disgusting, immoral and how anyone can applaud sodomy is beyond me. No one can be born naturally homosexual it is a mental state of mind caused by too much exposure to the liberal media and the breakdown of traditional conservative Christian values. Homosexuality is sinful and is totally unnatural going against the grain of everything Humanity has achieved since modernity. If all humans became homosexual then humanity would vanish within a few generations.

    Marriage is the vehicle that generates stable families and leads to successful children and good standing within the community. Go to tribes in Africa and other remote secluded locations and you will see Homosexuality is unheard of, it is not something that occurs but it is lifestyle choice and state of mind brought about by decades of left wing brainwashing and the liberal media who glorify's it.


    lol..I love when people post things like this.
    the gays are going to have an uprising soon!


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  • #472
    thelordofcheese
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,368 ✭✭✭thelordofcheese


    mumhaabu wrote: »
    Homosexuals should not be allowed to get married and Marriage is something between a man and a woman as is love. Homosexuality is disgusting, immoral and how anyone can applaud sodomy is beyond me. No one can be born naturally homosexual it is a mental state of mind caused by too much exposure to the liberal media and the breakdown of traditional conservative Christian values. Homosexuality is sinful and is totally unnatural going against the grain of everything Humanity has achieved since modernity. If all humans became homosexual then humanity would vanish within a few generations.

    Marriage is the vehicle that generates stable families and leads to successful children and good standing within the community. Go to tribes in Africa and other remote secluded locations and you will see Homosexuality is unheard of, it is not something that occurs but it is lifestyle choice and state of mind brought about by decades of left wing brainwashing and the liberal media who glorify's it.

    Man, you're so far in the closet you're finding christmas presents.


  • #473
    rainbow kirby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    mumhaabu wrote: »
    Homosexuals should not be allowed to get married and Marriage is something between a man and a woman as is love. Homosexuality is disgusting, immoral and how anyone can applaud sodomy is beyond me. No one can be born naturally homosexual it is a mental state of mind caused by too much exposure to the liberal media and the breakdown of traditional conservative Christian values. Homosexuality is sinful and is totally unnatural going against the grain of everything Humanity has achieved since modernity. If all humans became homosexual then humanity would vanish within a few generations.

    Marriage is the vehicle that generates stable families and leads to successful children and good standing within the community. Go to tribes in Africa and other remote secluded locations and you will see Homosexuality is unheard of, it is not something that occurs but it is lifestyle choice and state of mind brought about by decades of left wing brainwashing and the liberal media who glorify's it.

    I'd love to know what he's smoking, potent stuff.


  • #474
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    mumhaabu wrote: »
    Homosexuals should not be allowed to get married and Marriage is something between a man and a woman as is love. Homosexuality is disgusting, immoral and how anyone can applaud sodomy is beyond me. No one can be born naturally homosexual it is a mental state of mind caused by too much exposure to the liberal media and the breakdown of traditional conservative Christian values. Homosexuality is sinful and is totally unnatural going against the grain of everything Humanity has achieved since modernity. If all humans became homosexual then humanity would vanish within a few generations.

    Marriage is the vehicle that generates stable families and leads to successful children and good standing within the community. Go to tribes in Africa and other remote secluded locations and you will see Homosexuality is unheard of, it is not something that occurs but it is lifestyle choice and state of mind brought about by decades of left wing brainwashing and the liberal media who glorify's it.

    I expect nothing less from a person who comes out with nuggets like this....
    mumhaabu wrote: »
    The Great American Decade will continue and I for one hope that George W. Bush will have a say and I hope he will continue in politics for a long time to come as he is one of the true greats.


  • #475
    anonymous_joe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,255 ✭✭✭anonymous_joe


    mumhaabu wrote: »
    Homosexuals should not be allowed to get married and Marriage is something between a man and a woman as is love. Homosexuality is disgusting, immoral and how anyone can applaud sodomy is beyond me. No one can be born naturally homosexual it is a mental state of mind caused by too much exposure to the liberal media and the breakdown of traditional conservative Christian values. Homosexuality is sinful and is totally unnatural going against the grain of everything Humanity has achieved since modernity. If all humans became homosexual then humanity would vanish within a few generations.

    Marriage is the vehicle that generates stable families and leads to successful children and good standing within the community. Go to tribes in Africa and other remote secluded locations and you will see Homosexuality is unheard of, it is not something that occurs but it is lifestyle choice and state of mind brought about by decades of left wing brainwashing and the liberal media who glorify's it.

    Yay, a lunatic.

    From a Christian perspective (assuming you're a Christian rather than a moron) you believe in a loving God whose fundamental character trait is a love for all, despite their sins.

    Now given that Jesus said (if I remember rightly) that the only commandment worth remembering is to love your neighbour, (decent enough life philosophy really, be nice) your bigoted hateful response is in direct contravention of your Lord's orders. But don't worry, he's not a cúnt like you, so he'll forgive you. ;)


  • #476
    oeb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,793 ✭✭✭oeb


    I am pro gay marrige. I am also pro allowing religions to choose who to marry or not in their churches (Ie churches would be under no obligation to preform marriges that they saw as contrary to their religious beliefs).

    Personally, anyone who has a problem with other peoples sexuality is a bigot, pure and simple, any religion that trys to inforce this kind of bigotry is much more offensive to me than who sticks what where behind closed doors.

    Marrige is much much older than any church currently in existance, in fact gay marrige was not even banned until ~300 AD.

    For those who oppose gay marrige for religious reasons : Why exactly do you feel that what other people do affects your religious belief? I assume of course that you patrol the streets at night making sure people do not kill others? And you always have your ears open to be sure that people are not commiting blasphemy? Do the christians here stone their kids for being disobedient? (That's in the OT too)

    For those who oppose gay marrige for other moral reasons : Once again, why do you feel that the actions of others defines your morality? If you lead a life that you feel is moral, but live next door to someone who is gay/sells drugs/murdered someone, does that make you immoral by association?


  • #477
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    Just regarding the argument of ''born gay'' and ''alternate lifestyles''.

    Can i ask all the heterosexuals in the room who seem to be of the opinion that being gay is a chosen lifestyle, did you all choose to be straight?
    Now who's being silly?! Of course heterosexuals didn't choose to be straight, but the gays - well obviously they're actually hetero, but they decide at some point in their lives "You know what? I'm attracted to members of the opposite sex and get turned on by the idea of being with them, but fuk it. I think I'll start having sex with members of my own gender just to be different. I won't enjoy having sex with them since I don't fancy them, I'll miss out on sex/relationships with people of the opposite sex (whom I'm actually attracted to), I'll get discriminated against, I might even get disowned, I'll very possibly get assaulted physically and verbally... but fuk it, I'm gonna embrace the gay "lifestyle" anyway - just to be different. 'Twill be fun and exciting."
    mumhaabu wrote: »
    No one can be born naturally homosexual it is a mental state of mind
    A "mental state of mind"... as opposed to a physical state of mind?
    caused by too much exposure to the liberal media and the breakdown of traditional conservative Christian values.
    LOL - you're awesome! :D
    Wait a sec... that's so far-fetched and clichéd you can't be for real. It's satire isn't it?
    Homosexuality is sinful and is totally unnatural going against the grain of everything Humanity has achieved since modernity.
    Like the Greeks and all they achieved?
    Go to tribes in Africa and other remote secluded locations and you will see Homosexuality is unheard of
    You've studies to back this up?
    it is not something that occurs but it is lifestyle choice and state of mind brought about by decades of left wing brainwashing and the liberal media who glorify's it.
    'Course it is. The world is just SO liberal that people will choose to fancy members of their own sex even when they don't really. The world is SO liberal nobody gets any sh1t for being gay from anyone.
    MagicMarker wrote: »
    I expect nothing less from a person who comes out with nuggets like this....
    Yep, and something about "Sarah Palin and a glorious era of christian conservatism" - that was another one.

    When it comes to the Phelps family/Westboro Baptist Church, you must feel torn, mumhaabu. On the one hand their views on homosexuality are pretty much the same as yours, but on the other hand they're picketing the funerals of the soldiers who "fought the war on terror"...


  • #478
    metaoblivia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,256 ✭✭✭metaoblivia


    Last Tuesday, 4 states passed anti-gay marriage laws in the US, including California and Florida, my home state. Keith Olbermann summed up my views on this matter last night on his show.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnHyy8gkNEE


  • #479
    oeb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,793 ✭✭✭oeb


    mumhaabu wrote: »
    Marriage is the vehicle that generates stable families and leads to successful children and good standing within the community. Go to tribes in Africa and other remote secluded locations and you will see Homosexuality is unheard of, it is not something that occurs but it is lifestyle choice and state of mind brought about by decades of left wing brainwashing and the liberal media who glorify's it.

    Though often ignored or suppressed by European explorers and colonialists, homosexual expression in native Africa was also present and took a variety of forms. Anthropologists Stephen Murray and Will Roscoe reported that women in Lesotho engaged in socially sanctioned "long term, erotic relationships," named motsoalle.[32] E. E. Evans-Pritchard also recorded that male Azande warriors (in the northern Congo) routinely took on boy-wives between the ages of twelve and twenty, who helped with household tasks and participated in intercrural sex with their older husbands. The practice had died out by the early 20th century, after Europeans had gained control of African countries, but was recounted to Evans-Pritchard by the elders he spoke to

    Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#Africa

    That comes with sources too. (and source would be great on your chip)


  • #480
    jaffa20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,624 ✭✭✭jaffa20


    mumhaabu wrote: »
    Introduce a tax on the gheyness plus wide exhausts, hoodies and scooter cds.

    I dunno, he seems to have a great idea here. It's a long the same lines of Creepingdeaths comments.


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  • #481
    Sean Quagmire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Sean Quagmire


    Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve




    :pac:


This discussion has been closed.
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