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Personal relationship with Jesus Christ

  • 14-10-2008 10:16AM
    #1
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭


    In another thread, Run to da hills made the point,
    Christianity began as a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. When it went to Athens, it became a philosophy. When it went to Rome, it became an organization. When it spread throughout Europe, it became a culture. When it came to America, it became a business.

    As an atheist, I find the terminology "personal relationship with Jesus Christ" something that is very fuzzy. How can you have a personal relationship with something that is not a person? Perhaps you might say he was a person, but so was my Granny who I can no longer have a personal relationship with.

    If Jesus is having a personal relationship with millions and millions of people, how does he tends to all their needs and thoughts simultaneously?
    How can it be "personal" if the same thing is happening with millions of others?


«1345

Comments

  • #2
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    The Christian teaching and experience is that Jesus is still a Person. He is risen from the dead, ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God. He speaks to us through His Word and through the Holy Spirit, and we speak to Him in prayer and seek to obey His commands and teaching.

    He can meet the needs of many people simultaneously because He is God as well as man. This is why I believe in praying to Jesus and not to finite beings such as angels, saints or Mary.

    The relationship is 'personal' because it is different with each person. the issues I bring in prayer are not exactly the same as another Christian.


  • #3
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    PDN wrote: »
    The Christian teaching and experience is that Jesus is still a Person. He is risen from the dead, ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God. He speaks to us through His Word and through the Holy Spirit, and we speak to Him in prayer and seek to obey His commands and teaching.

    He can meet the needs of many people simultaneously because He is God as well as man. This is why I believe in praying to Jesus and not to finite beings such as angels, saints or Mary.

    The relationship is 'personal' because it is different with each person. the issues I bring in prayer are not exactly the same as another Christian.
    So it's possible for a person to exist outside space - time and relate to concious people inside space - time through a medium which has no energy and cannot be detected on the electro magnetic specturm, even though all other forms of communication, radio waves, micro waves, colour, sound can?


  • #4
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    So it's possible for a person to exist outside space - time and relate to concious people inside space - time through a medium which has no energy and cannot be detected on the electro magnetic specturm, even though all other forms of communication, radio waves, micro waves, colour, sound can?

    I don't necessarily agree that heaven is outside of space - time. I would think of it more as another dimension, or even a parallel universe. CS Lewis hinted at this in his Narnia books.

    Christians already believe that interaction between heaven and earth has occurred frequently. This would include the creation of the universe, the Incarnation of Christ, miracles, and prayer.

    Prayer, IMHO, certainly possesses energy.

    You say "all other forms of communication" can be detected on the electro magnetic spectrum. However, you have no way of knowing if there are other forms of communication that have not yet been detected. What you really mean is "all other forms of communication that we can detect". Several hundreds of years ago such a statement could have been used to argue against the existence of radiation, radio waves etc. Why assume that our technology has now advanced to a point where we have detected every conceivable form of communication?


  • #5
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    So it's possible for a person to exist outside space - time and relate to concious people inside space - time through a medium which has no energy and cannot be detected on the electro magnetic specturm, even though all other forms of communication, radio waves, micro waves, colour, sound can?

    How do you know that all other forms of communication can't be detected?


  • #6
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    How do you know that all other forms of communication can't be detected?

    Well it comes down to one of two possibilities:
    1. There exists communication which can pass through the universe undetected, does not exist on the electro magnetic spectrum and somehow ends up right inside your head.
    2. The communication began inside your head.


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  • #7
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    PDN wrote: »
    I don't necessarily agree that heaven is outside of space - time.
    If Heaven exists inside space - time, well then it is subject to the Einstein's Relativity Laws. This means for any mass is to get there, it will have to travel quite fast if it wants to make it there in under a few billion years. The faster it travels, the more mass it gets and the more energy required to move it.


  • #8
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    If Heaven exists inside space - time, well then it is subject to the Einstein's Relativity Laws. This means for any mass is to get there, it will have to travel quite fast if it wants to make it there in under a few billion years. The faster it travels, the more mass it gets and the more energy required to move it.

    And your point is?


  • #9
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    If Heaven exists inside space - time, well then it is subject to the Einstein's Relativity Laws. This means for any mass is to get there, it will have to travel quite fast if it wants to make it there in under a few billion years. The faster it travels, the more mass it gets and the more energy required to move it.
    I presume that, hoping not to get into trouble, that the answer is god is not subject to Einstein's Relativity Laws, or indeed any laws. Unless there is another answer.

    MrP


  • #10
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    MrPudding wrote: »
    I presume that, hoping not to get into trouble, that the answer is god is not subject to Einstein's Relativity Laws, or indeed any laws. Unless there is another answer.

    An answer would require a question.

    So far we have a statement about large amounts of energy in relation to a discussion about an all-powerful God. So what might the question be?


  • #11
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    PDN wrote: »
    And your point is?
    If it exists, it's very unlikely to be inside space time.


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  • #12
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    If it exists, it's very unlikely to be inside space time.

    How can you determine that?


  • #13
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    If it exists, it's very unlikely to be inside space time.

    'Unlikely' in that high energy and speed is too hard for an omnipotent God


  • #14
    Puck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,783 ✭✭✭Puck


    Newsflash: Christians believe in all-powerful God!

    I can see the spinning newspaper montage now.


  • #15
    oobydooby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 697 ✭✭✭oobydooby


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    If Heaven exists inside space - time, well then it is subject to the Einstein's Relativity Laws. This means for any mass is to get there, it will have to travel quite fast if it wants to make it there in under a few billion years. The faster it travels, the more mass it gets and the more energy required to move it.

    Firstly, I think the context is inappropriate. If it's a legitimate point of view that God created the laws of the universe (assuming that the universe does follow laws) then He is not bound by them. It's a category mismatch.

    A few scientific points on your post though:
    1. These relativity "laws" describe objects with mass. Massless objects (eg photons) do not increase in real or relative mass with increased speeds.

    2. Gravitational waves have not been detected yet.

    3. Instant communication has been well debated (by Einstein himself amongst other philosophers) in the context of quantum determinism and in particular the EPR experiment. Serious scientists are currently trying to exploit quantum effects to overcome this luminal speed limit on communications.
    [url]
    http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/Faster than light speed.htm
    [/url]

    4. Primary school children learn that energy cannot be created or destroyed (Fundamental law of physics). However, teenagers learn about Einstein's general theory of relativity and the consequential big bang theory. These are not immediately compatible. Even sophisticated and unproven explanations like the Higgs boson which they might detect soon in CERN can seem as contrived to the amateur as the religious explanations can seem to an unbeliever.

    There is plenty of mystery left in good science. Usually the questions which children ask cannot yet be answered.


  • #16
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    PDN wrote: »
    'Unlikely' in that high energy and speed is too hard for an omnipotent God
    Reducto ad god. Find something which by the laws of the universe is exceedingly unlikely but of course it's not to God.


  • #17
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    Reducto ad god. Find something which by the laws of the universe is exceedingly unlikely but of course it's not to God.

    Circular reasoning. An atheist tries to argue against a Christian's beliefs about an omnipotent God by advancing arguments that assume the non-existence of said omnipotent God.


  • #18
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    I go with Tim on this. The spiritual world is not observable by the material eye. It effects the material world, but not vice versa. It co-exists with the material world.

    If space/time is a description of the material world in its fullness, the the spiritual world is not part of it.


  • #19
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    In another thread, Run to da hills made the point,



    As an atheist, I find the terminology "personal relationship with Jesus Christ" something that is very fuzzy. How can you have a personal relationship with something that is not a person? Perhaps you might say he was a person, but so was my Granny who I can no longer have a personal relationship with.

    If Jesus is having a personal relationship with millions and millions of people, how does he tends to all their needs and thoughts simultaneously?
    How can it be "personal" if the same thing is happening with millions of others?
    Jesus Christ is God, so can have immediate personal communion with as many people as He wishes. You and I struggle even with our nearest and dearest. :o

    I think the phrase you mentioned was used to say that ours is not a mere worship of a god out there, one who may or may not bother to notice us. It is a personal relationship which He initiated and enables.


  • #20
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    PDN wrote: »
    Circular reasoning. An atheist tries to argue against a Christian's beliefs about an omnipotent God by advancing arguments that assume the non-existence of said omnipotent God.

    There's nothing circular there. This is an example of circular reasoning:

    Q. How do I know there is a God?
    A. Because it says so in the Bible
    Q. How do I know the Bible is true?
    A. Because it is the inerrant word of God
    Q. How do I know there is a God?
    A. Because it says so in the Bible
    Q. How do I know the Bible is true?
    A. Because it is the inerrant word of God

    Mine:
    Q. If Heaven exists, is it likely to be in space - time?
    A. No. For a number of reasons one of them being that it is exceedingly difficult to move something which has mass any great distance and when we do it gets more mass, making it even harder to move.

    This would mean, the soul has no mass (in which case is it part of space - time?) or that God bends his own laws of the Universe, so that the soul is moved to far off place that in such a way that we cannot detected by any means, it does not radiate any energy.


  • #21
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    I think the phrase you mentioned was used to say that ours is not a mere worship of a god out there, one who may or may not bother to notice us. It is a personal relationship which He initiated and enables.
    It is an obscure form of communication that from a scientific point of view has no difference between someone just imagining something. If God is sending you messages, does this travel as energy waves through the universe like all other forms of communication? No - because they'd be measurable. They simply by - pass all that and begin in your head. Just like someone's imagination.


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  • #22
    Puck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,783 ✭✭✭Puck


    Why do you think the "messages" have to travel? God is everywhere, not "out there somewhere".


  • #23
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    I have no particular opinion on the matter, Tim, but why do you presume that heaven has to have mass?
    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    If God is sending you messages, does this travel as energy waves through the universe like all other forms of communication? No - because they'd be measurable.

    As has been asked before, how do you know that all forms of communication have been discovered?

    Now, it's not an accusation, but I would be interested to see anything you can dig up supporting your claim that all forms of communication travel through the universe as energy waves.

    In this regard, I would assume you are inclined to believe that a smile or a scowl is simply a set of electrical impulses directing the movement of muscles associated with this particular form of communication?


  • #24
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    There's nothing circular there. This is an example of circular reasoning:

    Q. How do I know there is a God?
    A. Because it says so in the Bible
    Q. How do I know the Bible is true?
    A. Because it is the inerrant word of God
    Q. How do I know there is a God?
    A. Because it says so in the Bible
    Q. How do I know the Bible is true?
    A. Because it is the inerrant word of God

    Maybe you should find someone who makes such an argument before you go setting up strawmen.
    Mine:
    Q. If Heaven exists, is it likely to be in space - time?
    A. No. For a number of reasons one of them being that it is exceedingly difficult to move something which has mass any great distance and when we do it gets more mass, making it even harder to move.
    'Exceedingly Difficult' means nothing when applied to God.
    This would mean, the soul has no mass (in which case is it part of space - time?) or that God bends his own laws of the Universe, so that the soul is moved to far off place that in such a way that we cannot detected by any means, it does not radiate any energy.
    Who mentioned souls? Your OP was about Jesus Christ, who most definitely has a body.

    Also, only an extremely arrogant (or illogical) person would claim that our knowledge today is so advanced as to mean that anything that we cannot currently detect must therefore involve bending the laws of the universe.


  • #25
    Mal-Adjusted
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭Mal-Adjusted


    wow, this certainly stayed civil for much longer than i would have thought:D
    fair play to all involved. nice arguments from everyone.


  • #26
    Phototoxin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭Phototoxin


    I never got the personal relationship thing... it seemed to abstact and foreign... God/creator thing yes but after that not really. Not something/one who is avaialbe on a personal level.


  • #27
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Phototoxin wrote: »
    I never got the personal relationship thing... it seemed to abstact and foreign... God/creator thing yes but after that not really. Not something/one who is avaialbe on a personal level.

    It is central aspect Christianity. Sometimes this relationship can be extraordinary.

    For example, I been fortunate enough to hear wonderfully moving testimonies from a number of people who, in their past, were violent criminals (and I mean brutally violent). The common thread running through each of their stories is that that it was the personal relationship with Jesus that gave them the strength to turn their life around.


  • #28
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    It is central aspect Christianity. Sometimes this relationship can be extraordinary.

    For example, I been fortunate enough to hear wonderfully moving testimonies from a number of people who, in their past, were violent criminals (and I mean brutally violent). The common thread running through each of their stories is that that it was the personal relationship with Jesus that gave them the strength to turn their life around.
    Have there been no cases of bad criminals having the strength, themselves, to turn their lives around? I am not expecting you to find example, by the way, just throwing the question out there, I would not even know where to look. I know people, not criminals mind you, that have turned their lives around without god or jesus. People who have been through bad times or in a bad place.

    So what is the difference between someone who can turn their life around by themselves, compared to someone who needs god to do it?

    MrP


  • #29
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Phototoxin wrote: »
    I never got the personal relationship thing... it seemed to abstact and foreign... God/creator thing yes but after that not really. Not something/one who is avaialbe on a personal level.

    I seem to remember feeling the same way about marriage when I was a child.


  • #30
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    In this regard, I would assume you are inclined to believe that a smile or a scowl is simply a set of electrical impulses directing the movement of muscles associated with this particular form of communication?
    Yes and then visual colours are of course on the electro maganetic wave specturm.


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  • #31
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    PDN wrote: »
    Maybe you should find someone who makes such an argument before you go setting up strawmen.
    It's not a strawman it's an example of circular reasoning.
    'Exceedingly Difficult' means nothing when applied to God.
    Well then there's absolutely no point entering a debate about God, if you treat that as axiomatic, in which case you cannot give out about circular reasoing because treating something which has no evidence as axiomatic is as ridiculous as circular reasoning.
    Who mentioned souls? Your OP was about Jesus Christ, who most definitely has a body.
    You brought the conversation that way with your post
    I don't necessarily agree that heaven is outside of space - time. I would think of it more as another dimension, or even a parallel universe. CS Lewis hinted at this in his Narnia books.
    Also, only an extremely arrogant (or illogical) person would claim that our knowledge today is so advanced as to mean that anything that we cannot currently detect must therefore involve bending the laws of the universe.
    An extremly arrogant (or illogical) person would claim Einstein's Laws of Mass and Energy are wrong just becase it forces them to think about their religion a bit more. There is absolutely no evidence for Mass Energy relationship being wrong, and there is absolute tonnes for it being correct. Nuclear power being the most obvious.


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