Sat4Free/Freesat in Ireland

I made no such implication and if thats the tone you wish to take in the debate I will leave you to it.

copacetic wrote: »

I'm sure you will have another cryptic one liner that implies no-one else knows what they are talking about without actually saying anything of substance. Can't wait.

Moonbaby wrote: »

So is a freeview box different than a freesat box?

Yes, FreeView is Digitial Terrestrial television, broadcase from a series of transmitters around the country, basically a digital version of the current anaolgue tv service, which it will replace eventually.

FreeSat is digital television broadcast via satellite.

In theory it is possible to get a box which does both services, such a box needs a satellite connection and connection to a root top aerial.

GerardKeating wrote: »

Yes, FreeView is Digitial Terrestrial television, broadcase from a series of transmitters around the country, basically a digital version of the current anaolgue tv service, which it will replace eventually.

FreeSat is digital television broadcast via satellite.

In theory it is possible to get a box which does both services, such a box needs a satellite connection and connection to a root top aerial.

You need to keep in mind that FreeView is the UK digital terrestrial service. 'FreeView' tuners will not work with the forthcoming irish digital terrestrial service. This is also worth noting in relation to TV's, dvd recorders etc.

redout wrote: »

You can purchase official freesat boxes here from satellite stores but they are more expensive. Power city are selling sat4free boxes, more or lesss the same except with a Northern Ireland postcode locked in.

If I buy one can i just enter in any postcode from the north, say Newry?

Thanks Redout. That clarifies it for me. It is off to Newry I go!

Good morning,

I thought that with the Bush you could add in non freesat channels and that they went to the end of the epg... Is that not the case?

I am thinking of picking up a HD Bush, but only if that was the case as some of the channels I watch are not on freesat.

mj

smccarrick wrote: »

They are added to the end of the EPG- I think starting with number 3000. You can't modify the EPG order (like you can with some software versions on the Humax). It works fine otherwise though.

Bit of miss information here. You cannot modify the channel order with the humax foxsat in freesat mode. This would be against freesat rules. The only channels you can edit are the BBC1 and BBC 2 regions. For example you can set up freesat box with a london post code but have BBC1 AND BBC 2 NI as your default channels at 101 and 102 and itv london as 103. You cannot change the positions of any other channels.

You can delete channels as you can with a bush, goodmans or grundig.

@jaykell

I think I would be rather upset at not being able to tune in ITV HD. Not because I would miss the content (although HD footie is always good), but because it clearly says it on the website and in store that you can get BBC HD and ITV HD.

mj

lafors wrote: »

Is there still no date for the Humax HD PVR box?
.

Apparaently there is a fault in the chipset which has delayed it so far.

Kensington wrote: »

RTE going FTA isn't going to happen. Rights issues are a big stopper for them being able to broadcast in the clear to what is potentially 50million+ people , in the strong ROI/UK footprint of 2D, when they currently buy in programmes for a market of approx. 5million people. Besides, under the current agreements, Sky pay for the annual transponder leasing costs for both RTEs, TV3 and TG4 aswell as giving them prime EPG slots on SkyGuide (101-104). In turn, they encrypt the four channels using NDS Videoguard and make you have to subscribe to a sky package in order to get access to these channels. In order for RTE to appear on freesat boxes, or go FTA, they would have to pay the annual transponder leasing costs for Astra themselves (thousands per year) and in all likelihood pay for a Sky Guide listing for each channel (tens of thousands per slot, per year), in order to appear on the SkyGuide, something RTE quite simply can't really afford or justify right now. Even to get a FTV type system, they would probably have to pay sky for encryption of the channels (again, tens of thousands, per channel, per year) on top of transponder and EPG carriage fees. At the moment, the current setup suits them both very nicely - RTE essentially get free carriage on 2D and Sky get subscription revenues from the fact RTE are tied into a subscription package.

Yes, they are all very valid reason why RTÉ can't simply go FTA, but I wasn't suggesting that or that they should alter the existing agreement with Sky. They would have to come to some arrangement to restrict viewing in order to satisfy rights holders while maintaining the existing agreement with Sky. But the whole issue of copyright is a grey area.

For example, the notion that transmission of the UK channels from 2D limits their reception to the UK and Ireland is, frankly, a joke. The actual footprint is significantly wider than the official footprint. There is a similar situation with the FTA channels on Badr 4 which have a far higher American film and series content (in English) than RTÉ or the UK terrestrials. The published footprint suggests reception is limited to the Middle East and North Africa but in reality, the channels can be received in the UK and Ireland with 90cm dishes or less. Plus we have the idiotic situation where some of the programming is blocked out by C4 on Sky "for copyright reasons", yet the same programmes can be easily watched via add channels.

So the threshold for copyright holders seems to be that the broadcaster makes a reasonable effort to limit reception or can provide some legal evidence (e.g. footprints) to argue their case.

In the case of Freesat, the interesting channel is ITV-HD. ITV-HD is not transmitted from 2D but from Eurobird 1 whose footprint is focussed on central Europe. In order to avoid any rights issues, and to limit the channel to the UK, the video PIDs are stripped from the PAT and instead transmitted in the EPG stream. So a digibox or a FTA receiver cannot directly tune in ITV-HD. Neither can a Freesat receiver, but it can pull in the approriate PIDs from the EPG data stream. So you have a form of pseudo-encryption which limits the channel to Freesat receivers and effectively to the UK. And you can limit reception further to specific boxes - the example being that the "red button" only appears on ITV but not on UTV. So far this approach seems to have satisfied the rights holders, who might be more worried than usual given that the content is soccer and American films in HD.

One possibility for RTÉ is to transmit the 3 channels in a similar manner with the PIDs stripped from the PAT/PMT and instead sent along with the EPG. With the Sat4Free boxes, you can have a customised EPG with placeholders for the 3 channels inserted - this EPG would not be available on a Freesat box because there would be no corresponding postcode.

There is an issue of cost, with RTÉ having to hire transponder space for the 3 channels. However, they could just as easily hire space on Eurobird as Astra - no need for the "premium" space on 2D after all. You're looking at ~3.7Mbps x3 or 11Mbps in MPEG2 DVB-S currently. Using MPEG4 you could knock off close on 50%. And with DVB-S2 you could save another 30%. So you're down to under 4Mbps. You could bring that to close on 3Mbps with a 544x576 resolution and slight reduction in image quality - the Irish channels have some headroom there anyway.

When you compare the cost of satellite bandwidth with the cost of achieving 95%+ DTT coverage, the economics of the former quickly win out. Or simply drop "Diaspora TV" and use the funds from that.

There is a second approach which requires RTÉ to work in conjunction with Grundig but would entail hardly any additional running costs for RTÉ. Firstly, Grundig would need to modify the firmware on the Sat4Free boxes to incorporate the appropriate encryption software - this would be in their own interests as they would ultimately sell more boxes. Something like BISS would be sufficient as it is cheap to licence from the EBU and doesn't require a smartcard to work. Then you piggyback the second encryption layer on top of the current stream on 10744. As most consumer receiver do not have BISS encryption, you've limited reception to the Sat4Free boxes.

Sky may well bitch and moan at either of the above, but what are they going to do? They might refuse to carry the Irish channels on their platform or pay for the uplink costs, but no RTÉ on your Sky subscription would give a very strong competitive advantage to UPC. Sky need RTÉ more than RTÉ need Sky.