Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

estebancambias · 19-08-2008 09:05AM

he was a journeyman up until around the age of 23, his only move of any note was to Galatasary.

pesireland · 19-08-2008 09:12AM

PHB wrote: »

Downing is only a bit better than Babel and not likely to improve massively. You're better off letting Babel play and develop because he can be better than Downing will ever be.

I wouldn't have downing down (pardon the pun

) as a better player than babel, babel is far more dangerous i think.

raven136 · 19-08-2008 09:38AM

am i the only one thinking that Babel has bags of potential but has been awful when starting games but great coming off the bench.
As previously pointed out he has scored when the game was over,like the 3 he got against Besikats when he came on after 65 minutes or so.
I like him as a player but he hasnt been that great in most games.Stats can fool you sometimes.

missingtime · 19-08-2008 09:41AM

raven136 wrote: »

am i the only one thinking that Babel has bags of potential but has been awful when starting games but great coming off the bench.

I've always thought that too. Its weird.

PHB · 19-08-2008 09:43AM

Cyrus wrote: »

how do you know? he could improve massively, he could not but you dont know any better than anyone else.

I don't know, but every single time you make an opinion on a player, unless you say something along the lines of imo, I'm going to quote this post. Jesus christ like.

---

I wouldn't have downing down (pardon the pun ) as a better player than babel, babel is far more dangerous i think.

:P I would think the same of Babel cause he looks so threatening all the time, but so far he has yet to produce to the levels of downing, but hes close.
Stats:
Babel - 1400 3 goals 2 assists
Downing- 3415 9 goals 6 assists

Now techincally if Babel played 3 times as much he'd (in theory) be the same, but Babel played in easier games last year (at the end of them mostly), has trouble starting games and plays with better players. It's not huge, but I think Downings just a bit better currently.

Personally I do think Liverpool need a top class left winger instead of Babel if they want to seriously challenge, making a front four of Torres, Keane, Gerrard, new person.

But if the new person is Downing, I don't think its a huge boost from Babel, and Babel imo [just in case you don't realise this is an opinion] has the potential to be so much more.

pesireland · 19-08-2008 09:51AM

raven136 wrote: »

am i the only one thinking that Babel has bags of potential but has been awful when starting games but great coming off the bench.
As previously pointed out he has scored when the game was over,like the 3 he got against Besikats when he came on after 65 minutes or so.
I like him as a player but he hasnt been that great in most games.Stats can fool you sometimes.

I think you'll find it was 2 he scored

, Benayoun scored 3

PHB wrote: »

Now techincally if Babel played 3 times as much he'd (in theory) be the same, but Babel played in easier games last year (at the end of them mostly), has trouble starting games and plays with better players. It's not huge, but I think Downings just a bit better currently.

Personally I do think Liverpool need a top class left winger instead of Babel if they want to seriously challenge, making a front four of Torres, Keane, Gerrard, new person.

But if the new person is Downing, I don't think its a huge boost from Babel, and Babel imo [just in case you don't realise this is an opinion] has the potential to be so much more.

couldn't agree more with you on that one

Karmafaerie · 19-08-2008 09:57AM

raven136 wrote: »

am i the only one thinking that Babel has bags of potential but has been awful when starting games but great coming off the bench.
As previously pointed out he has scored when the game was over,like the 3 he got against Besikats when he came on after 65 minutes or so.
I like him as a player but he hasnt been that great in most games.Stats can fool you sometimes.

I followed his carrer in Holland.
Believe me when I say that he's so much more.
In Holland he actually played as a wing-forward as apposed to a winger, and so had less defensive responsibilities.
When he first came to Liverpool he was deployed as a winger, and it was having to learn to be defensive that stiffled him more than anything else.
The reason he's been so effective when coming on as a sub late in the game (IMO), is not that he's attacking tired defenders, but more that the opposition aren't attacking as much so he was free to be himself.

The guy is special.

If he gets reagular starts in the wing forward role, with Masch Alonso/Barry to cover and Dossena to assist on the flanks, you'll see a lot more out of him, all the way through the game.

Karmafaerie · 19-08-2008 09:58AM

Even though the half-time introduction of the out of favour Alonso in replacement for Damien Plessis was a fairly obvious one to make, Benitez still deserves credit for putting the issues he has with his fellow Spaniard to one side for the good of the team.
Similarly, he should also be praised for the far more unlikely substitutions which also played a part in Liverpool's victory.
When the electronic board displaying the number seven went up no-one in the away end will have been particularly surprised as £20m man Keane had struggled and looked far from his best.
But there won't have been many who expected his replacement to be young Moroccan Nabil El Zhar, who regular reserve team watchers will know did not even set Gary Ablett's second string alight last season.
Benitez followed that up by bringing on Fabio Aurelio for the wholly ineffective Yossi Benayoun, leaving many wondering how replacing an attacking midfielder with a left back could help Liverpool's bid to turn a draw into a win, even if the Israeli had again been well off the pace.
As changes go, these were far from obvious. But whereas he may not always have the final say in the transfer market, Benitez is always able to back his own judgement during games and in this case it most definitely paid off.
The Reds boss's detractors may not like it, and many of them will choose to ignore it, but these unlikely substitutions might just have been key to Liverpool's victory.
All of a sudden, the narrowness which had stymied their attacking effectiveness was replaced with genuine width and the Sunderland full backs could no longer tuck in and suffocate Liverpool's forays forward through sheer numbers.
It was in the space that this created that Torres was able to do what he does best and with such simplicity an opening day victory was secured.
If there is a lesson for Benitez's critics to learn from the tactical adjustments that led up to that decisive goal, there is also one for the manager himself.
Even with a full back playing on one flank and a totally unheralded and largely untested reserve player on the other Liverpool still managed to be more effective than they had been beforehand.
Genuine width stretches even the most organised sides and opens up space for strikers who can otherwise be smothered far too easily.
Far too often, Liverpool lack this basic quality and only if it is added to their attributes will the Reds be able to mount a truly sustainable title charge, an achievement which Rafa Benitez would gladly take responsibility for.

Interesting exerpt from the Echo.

Handsome Bob · 19-08-2008 10:03AM

My frustration with Babel is simple; he does well, gets past one or two players. But instead of passing it to a player in space, he keeps on going trying to dribble his way past another 3 players into a clear shot on goal for himself. He's a dangerous player with bags of potential, but he's selfish. But he can only improve his game, just needs to become a team player.

missingtime · 19-08-2008 10:08AM

LZ5by5 wrote: »

My frustration with Babel is simple; he does well, gets past one or two players. But instead of passing it to a player in space, he keeps on going trying to dribble his way past another 3 players into a clear shot on goal for himself. He's a dangerous player with bags of potential, but he's selfish. But he can only improve his game, just needs to become a team player.

I wouldn't say selfish as such, just a little eager to impress. He needs a little more time.

To be honest we need more players like him, players who are not affraid to take people on and have a shot.

pesireland · 19-08-2008 10:10AM

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Interesting exerpt from the Echo.

thanks nice read.;)

LZ5by5 wrote: »

My frustration with Babel is simple; he does well, gets past one or two players. But instead of passing it to a player in space, he keeps on going trying to dribble his way past another 3 players into a clear shot on goal for himself. He's a dangerous player with bags of potential, but he's selfish. But he can only improve his game, just needs to become a team player.

Don't agree with that, i think he looks for the player its just his final ball on occasions lets him down.

Handsome Bob · 19-08-2008 10:12AM

pesireland wrote: »

thanks nice read.;)

Don't agree with that, i think he looks for the player its just his final ball on occasions lets him down.

I can only judge on what I have seen, and on many occasions, he keeps running and dribbling until he runs into a brick wall.

Handsome Bob · 19-08-2008 10:14AM

missingtime wrote: »

I wouldn't say selfish as such, just a little eager to impress. He needs a little more time.

To be honest we need more players like him, players who are not affraid to take people on and have a shot.

I don't mind him going for the shot when he has a good opportunity. I'm talking about him taking on players. He gets past two now that's great pass the ball to the guy who's wide open and who has a clear chance on goal. Instead he tries to beat another two players on his own.

missingtime · 19-08-2008 10:15AM

LZ5by5 wrote: »

he keeps running and dribbling until he runs into a brick wall.

Flashback of Baros

Karmafaerie · 19-08-2008 10:15AM

LZ5by5 wrote: »

My frustration with Babel is simple; he does well, gets past one or two players. But instead of passing it to a player in space, he keeps on going trying to dribble his way past another 3 players into a clear shot on goal for himself. He's a dangerous player with bags of potential, but he's selfish. But he can only improve his game, just needs to become a team player.

Wanna take a look back through all the previous Liverpool superthreads where everyone talked about how we need a selfish player?

Babel is learning his trade, and it's only by going past two players and having the confidence to take on the third - even if you fail - that you develop the ability to beat three players.

Ronaldo had a stuttering start to his carrer at Utd, with moments of brilliance, followed by him giving the ball away.

Now he's (supposedly) the best player in the world.

Players aren't born that way, they work at it.

Boggles · 19-08-2008 10:22AM

Babel will turn 22 this year, so it is due time that potential has to be realised. Big season for the lad, he did cost a packet, he has everything going for him thou, big, strong, fast, with a shot on him, attributes that see the new breed of wingers flourish.

This season he should get more starts, if Rafa doesn't sign an alternative, we should get a better idea of what level he is at and can achieve.

Handsome Bob · 19-08-2008 10:22AM

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Wanna take a look back through all the previous Liverpool superthreads where everyone talked about how we need a selfish player?

Babel is learning his trade, and it's only by going past two players and having the confidence to take on the third - even if you fail - that you develop the ability to beat three players.

Ronaldo had a stuttering start to his carrer at Utd, with moments of brilliance, followed by him giving the ball away.

Now he's (supposedly) the best player in the world.

Players aren't born that way, they work at it.

How many players are going to turn out like Ronaldo? As I said it's fantastic seeing him beat players, but he needs to improve his vision of the game, instead of trying to beat the 3rd player he should see the player wide open, already with a clear chance on goal. He does the hard work, but often he ignores the easier solution after that.

pesireland · 19-08-2008 10:23AM

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Wanna take a look back through all the previous Liverpool superthreads where everyone talked about how we need a selfish player?

Babel is learning his trade, and it's only by going past two players and having the confidence to take on the third - even if you fail - that you develop the ability to beat three players.

Ronaldo had a stuttering start to his carrer at Utd, with moments of brilliance, followed by him giving the ball away.

Now he's (supposedly) the best player in the world.
Players aren't born that way, they work at it.

Glad you said supposedly, i always thought i was the best in the world

5starpool · 19-08-2008 10:38AM

I agree with those who says Babel has been frustrating a lot but seems to have loads of potential. Some of the games he played last year though he was dreadful, like the defeat at old trafford. I don't think I have seen a more anaemic display in a long time by an attacker of ours.

Hopefully this is the season he starts to add a bit of consistency to his starting displays as we really need someone that can make penetrating explosive runs down the flanks and cutting in. I think though that if he doesn't make an impact this season he may well not get another chance.

Karmafaerie · 19-08-2008 10:39AM

LZ5by5 wrote: »

How many players are going to turn out like Ronaldo? As I said it's fantastic seeing him beat players, but he needs to improve his vision of the game, instead of trying to beat the 3rd player he should see the player wide open, already with a clear chance on goal. He does the hard work, but often he ignores the easier solution after that.

But we need a selfish player!
Every top team has one.
If you have a selfish player, with a touch of genius, all it takes is one moment to win a game.

Players like Ronaldo, Robben, Queresma, Figo back in the day, and IMO Babel, are game changers.
We have a great team of unselfish passers, especially now with Keane.
We need somebody who's willing to step up, and try and do the un-doable.

If nothing else, when Babel is running at three players, that's three players out of position, and creates tonnes of space for the others.

I remember Torres, Bennayoun and I think Gerrard, all scoring tap ins after Babel rounded a few fired a rocket of a shot that the keeper could just deflect, and then because all the defenders were surrounding Babel, we had players free in the six yard box.

Selfish players are neccesary.

Karmafaerie · 19-08-2008 10:40AM

pesireland wrote: »

Glad you said supposedly, i always thought i was the best in the world

I'm the best player in my own head!:D
(Somebody should tell me feet though!:p)

NabyLadistheman · 19-08-2008 11:01AM

Does anyone know what the story with Stevie Finnan is?? He has come pot and said he is in Limbo as he is fit and has totally been over-looked by Rafa. I would still rate Finnan and am amused to say the least

mike65 · 19-08-2008 11:01AM

Andy Hunter in the Grauniad seems obsessed with Rafa/Barry saga

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/aug/19/astonvilla.liverpool

Mike.

missingtime · 19-08-2008 11:04AM

Parry should be taken out and shot.

Handsome Bob · 19-08-2008 11:08AM

Karmafaerie wrote: »

But we need a selfish player!
Every top team has one.
If you have a selfish player, with a touch of genius, all it takes is one moment to win a game.

Players like Ronaldo, Robben, Queresma, Figo back in the day, and IMO Babel, are game changers.
We have a great team of unselfish passers, especially now with Keane.
We need somebody who's willing to step up, and try and do the un-doable.

If nothing else, when Babel is running at three players, that's three players out of position, and creates tonnes of space for the others.

I remember Torres, Bennayoun and I think Gerrard, all scoring tap ins after Babel rounded a few fired a rocket of a shot that the keeper could just deflect, and then because all the defenders were surrounding Babel, we had players free in the six yard box.

Selfish players are neccesary.

That may be true, and as I said I have no issue with Babel taking a shot. But when he has options, a choice of trying to skin a player or putting another player clean through on goal, he trys to skin a player. That is not productive at all and he needs to realise when to bring someone else into the game when it's the better option.

Selfish players are necessary. But even selfish players need to learn when to go with the blatantly easier option, sometimes they just can't do it all on their own. Look at the partnership between Villa and Torres for Spain. Two top class players, two selfish players at times. But both knew when to put the other through on goal when it was the safer option.

slingerz · 19-08-2008 11:16AM

Someone like Arjen Robben would be the ideal player for Liverpool's wide attacking problems

Karmafaerie · 19-08-2008 11:25AM

LZ5by5 wrote: »

That may be true, and as I said I have no issue with Babel taking a shot. But when he has options, a choice of trying to skin a player or putting another player clean through on goal, he trys to skin a player. That is not productive at all and he needs to realise when to bring someone else into the game when it's the better option.

Selfish players are necessary. But even selfish players need to learn when to go with the blatantly easier option, sometimes they just can't do it all on their own. Look at the partnership between Villa and Torres for Spain. Two top class players, two selfish players at times. But both knew when to put the other through on goal when it was the safer option.

True, but look at last seson.
One of the most promising aspects for me was Gerrard and Torres helping Babel.
If you look back ove rhte games, you can see when Babel makes a game, nearly always either Torres or mainly Gerrard (due to the language barrier I bet!:P) were going over to him and talking to him.
That's what I love to see in a club.

pesireland · 19-08-2008 11:40AM

slingerz wrote: »

Someone like Arjen Robben would be the ideal player for Liverpool's wide attacking problems

OMG you just made me wet myself

Handsome Bob · 19-08-2008 11:41AM

Karmafaerie wrote: »

True, but look at last seson.
One of the most promising aspects for me was Gerrard and Torres helping Babel.
If you look back ove rhte games, you can see when Babel makes a game, nearly always either Torres or mainly Gerrard (due to the language barrier I bet!:P) were going over to him and talking to him.
That's what I love to see in a club.

There's no doubt that last season Babel provided performances of great menace, and did improve playing alongside Torres, Gerrard and Kuyt at the end of last season. Just one or two little improvements and he could be phenomenal this season.

PHB · 19-08-2008 11:48AM

Robben's injury problems make Kewell look fit.

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

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