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Want to get into Web Design - What do you think of this course?

  • 18-06-2008 04:14PM
    #1
    MistyCheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,006 ✭✭✭


    Hello, I really want to get into Web Design and I've found this course that seems to be pretty good. Most of the other courses I've seen cost €400 - €600 and they don't seem like ones that you could get a job from. More of a hobby thing. This one is more expensive but if I get a job and a career out of it then it will be worth it in the long run.

    I'm not going to give any details of where the course is being run or anything, in case that's not allowed, but I can tell you what the content is. Does this seem like a course that would give you the right qualifications to get your foot in the door of a web design job?

    It's a diploma course, by the way, which is the same kind of course I did last time, in Office Skills, Word, Excel etc, and I was able to get a job with the qualifications.

    Thanks for all replies. This is the course:

    Course Aims & Objectives

    This course aims to give participants the skills necessary to design a website. Windows skills are assumed but no previous web skills are required. On completion of this course, students will be able to:
    - Search for, evaluate, and use information from the Internet
    - Read and edit HTML
    - Use style sheets to maintain a consistent look to web pages
    - Integrate images into their web pages
    - Plan and design a complete website including content, page layouts, site map, user-friendly navigation and other features
    - Demonstrate good web design techniques
    - Discuss search engine marketing
    - Use other similar graphics editing software to create/edit and optimise graphics for the web
    - Create special effects with their own graphic images
    - Optimise images for export to the web and between tools
    - Understand different web graphic formats and their limitations.

    Course Content

    The Internet Technologies and Applications
    Internet, The World Wide Web; Client-Server Model; ISP, URLS, DNS, HTML; TCP/IP, HTTP and FTP; Browsers; Search Engines.



    Optimising Internet Usage from a User’s Perspective
    Customising Browsers; History and Favourites Folder; Search Engines; Effective Search Techniques, Directory and Keyword Searches.


    Evaluating Websites
    Criteria for Good Web Design; Accessibility, Content, Navigation, Audience, Authority, Objectivity, Currency and Coverage.


    Creating a Web Page
    Simple Tags; Changing Fonts, Colours and Sizes; General Layout of a Web Page; Using Text Editors to Create a Web Page; Using High Level Software to Produce Web Pages; Creating Tables and Layers; Adding Images and Image Maps; Incorporating JavaScript into Web Pages; Inserting Dynamic Elements such as RSS; Creating Interactive Forms and Using HTML.


    Creating a Website
    Create a Website using High Level Software such as Macromedia Dreamweaver; Site Structure, Linking; Navigation; Organising Resources; Site Management Facilities in Using Style Sheets and Templates; Frames and Framesets; Meta Data.


    Publishing the Website
    Publishing the Website using propriety software; FTP programs; Website Hosting.
    Image Processing
    Create/Edit Images using High Level Software such as Macromedia Fireworks; Working with the Document and the Canvas. Using Vector and Bitmap Mode Tools, Paths, Undoing Actions and Using the History Panel; Using Text in Fireworks; Working
    with Layers; Creating Animated Gifs; Introducing Behaviors and Slices; Optimising and Exporting.


Comments

  • #2
    EKRIUQ
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,393 ✭✭✭EKRIUQ


    Looks fairly comprehensive for a begineers course and should give a great grounding for future development as its covering all the main parts of web design.

    Personally if I was starting again I'd look more in the developer side of things as design isn't my strong point but I can pretty much build any type of website.

    Web design and building is pretty much like a sponge you just keep on taking in newer things and newer things at a rapid rate and there's always some new developemt out there. Best of luck


  • #3
    MistyCheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,006 ✭✭✭MistyCheese


    Thank you for your response. Do you think if I had this on my CV I would be able to secure a beginners (junior) role with a web design company?

    I'm asking because it's very expensive so I would hate to fork out for the course only for employers to say "Well, you'd need to be able to do A, B and C aswell..."

    I would be hoping that I wouldn't need another course on top of this one before I could start. I know that you have to constantly update your skills but I'm hoping this would be enough to get a starting position.


  • #4
    yeraulone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 597 ✭✭✭yeraulone


    To get a junior position in a web design company, you'd probably need a bit of a portfolio behind you.You could design and build your own site, and maybe ask people around you, if you could develop their sites to build up a bit of a portfolio. If thats not an option, maybe while you are doing the course, you could ask a few companies for a few weeks work experience and see what happens from there.


  • #5
    MistyCheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,006 ✭✭✭MistyCheese


    Okay, well the portofoilio I could do but work experience I probably wouldn't. i have rent to pay!!

    Thank you for your response. I should probably speak to an employment agency and see what they think. I hope they'll help me even though I won't be looking for a job for a few months.


  • #6
    EKRIUQ
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,393 ✭✭✭EKRIUQ


    Unfortunately I don't think that course would be near enough, There thousands of people who can do everything in that course and much more and it's more in the website basics. But you can grow from there everyone has to start some where

    As said above an employer will judge you not only on your qualifications but on your portfolio which will tell much more about your capabilities.

    Here’s some more advanced aspects of the web building industry

    JavaScript 1.0-1.5,
    DHTML,
    DOM Levels 0-2,
    CSS 1-2.1,
    HTML & XHTML,
    web standards,
    PHP,
    Object-oriented programming,
    Cross-browser compatibility issues,
    Progressive enhancement,
    Optimization techniques (both in file weight and perceived/actual rendering speed), accessibility, device-portability techniques, and internationalization issues.

    Knowledge of XML, HTTP, Apache, MySQL, remote scripting, state management, working within a Unix environment, CVS, and bug tracking tools is would be highly desirable.

    So your course would be a good starting point but there's much more out there(Don't worry it melts my mind as well)


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  • #7
    heggie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,879 ✭✭✭heggie


    web design/dev courses tend to get outdated very fast as the industry moves quickly. Tables & Layers in that course stood out to me, It may be fine as a starting point, but you're going to have to learn to educate yourself constantly to keep up.


  • #8
    Axwell
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 10,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Axwell


    Namesco wrote: »

    JavaScript 1.0-1.5,
    DHTML,
    DOM Levels 0-2,
    CSS 1-2.1,
    HTML & XHTML,
    web standards,
    PHP,
    Object-oriented programming,
    Cross-browser compatibility issues,
    Progressive enhancement,
    Optimization techniques (both in file weight and perceived/actual rendering speed), accessibility, device-portability techniques, and internationalization issues.

    Knowledge of XML, HTTP, Apache, MySQL, remote scripting, state management, working within a Unix environment, CVS, and bug tracking tools is would be highly desirable.


    I think in fairness your list is a comprehensive list but covers design and development work, if the OP was hoping to get a job as a junior web designer they would be better focusing on some of that list and getting a portfolio together. Also they wont get all that from the course as you said and only the very basics, but probably outdated basics also.

    The course outline above seems to suggest hmtl and table layout is being used with an introduction to CSS and also using frames.

    This is a bit dated and you would be better focusing on XHtml,CSS, and Javascript to start with and from there picking up more as you go along.
    These courses tend to get dated very quickly and just get repeated each year and only glance over a lot of the content thats really important. You will learn how to design using tables etc but then when you finish the course and look on the web you find out tables are no longer the way to do things.

    Depending on how dedicated you are and willing to learn yourself you could have a look at tutorials online at w3schools.com and lynda.com (have to pay for this one but they are video tutorials and well done). You should consider saving your money and doing the tutorials online and maybe try put together your own site first. From there once you get up and running ask friends and family members about doing a site for them to get practice and build up a portfolio. Assuming your doing this as an extra thing along side your current job getting a portfolio together is your first step really so learn as you go and get that together cos thats what any company or client is going to want to see first.


  • #9
    MistyCheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,006 ✭✭✭MistyCheese


    Wow, thank you so much to everyone for your replies, I'm really glad I asked now. It doesn't sound like that course is worth €1,250.

    I am trying to teach myself as I go along but when I get stuck there's no-one to ask for help. :confused:

    I'll have to have a serious re-think. Thanks guys for helping me not waste over a grand on a course that's already out-of-date. I owe you each a drink!


  • #10
    Axwell
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 10,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Axwell


    MistyCheese wrote: »

    I am trying to teach myself as I go along but when I get stuck there's no-one to ask for help. :confused:

    Hi Misty,

    Id say have a look through the tutorials i mentioned above, you can look at some of the lynda.com ones before you subscribe to see if you like them. Also maybe pick up a good book on the basics of Xhtml and CSS.

    Also you can always ask on here, people will help answer any questions they can if you are stuck with something.


  • #11
    DonkeyStyle \o/
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,144 ✭✭✭DonkeyStyle \o/


    Just on the tables and frames thing, there are still sites out there using them, so learning about them isn't completely redundant... particularly if your first job involves updating content on such a site... or even to strip and rebuild it.
    Similar to a networking course teaching you about token ring I suppose :)


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  • #12
    p
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭p


    Misty - if it's design you're after then that course sounds very poor, since it doens't actually teach any design, it's just basic internet stuff. Also, most night courses and the like are all outdated and teach you many things wrong. It might provide a good grounding to start further learning, but generally speaking it's not going to be very good and you're not going to land a job right out of the course.

    What's your background & experience at the moment?

    Also, one thing to consider is if you want to become a designer or developer. Design is all about colour theory, user psychology, usability, layout, typography and creating a visual experience that works well for a client and their customers. Technical aptitude is a must and you do need the HTML/CSS skills to actually build the sites too. If you don't have that aptitude and still want to design, then perhaps Graphic Design is a better choice.

    Web development is all about programming a site. Using server-side languages like PHP, Java, ASP and learning about databases and generally writing custom programs for your clients. This is a highly technical role and will involve no design work, though an appreciation for good design would be useful.


  • #13
    heggie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,879 ✭✭✭heggie


    spot on p, you really need to choose, design or development


  • #14
    MistyCheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,006 ✭✭✭MistyCheese


    Well, I always thought design more than development even though development would probably be the better choice in terms of being able to find a job, I imagine more developers are needed than designers.

    At the moment I have a very basic knowledge of designing a site, all self-taught through web tutorials and a HTML book. I can't seem to fit everything into the middle, you know how a lot of sites have like a background, and then a more centered middle part where all of the contect is? I probably didn't explain that very well. :o

    It seems that my best option is to continue trying to learn on my own and just keep working on building websites for practise and for an eventual portfolio. I think I should try to learn as much of the development side as possible because it seems to be the most important and just consider design to be secondary. Although I'd like to be able to do that aswell so I'll continue to concentrate on design, just put development first.

    I'm a bit worried about trying to learn PHP and Java and Flash on my own but, like p said, if I don't have the aptitude for it then it's not really the career for me. I don't want to go to work every day for 40 years and have to figure out "How do I do this again?"

    I'll see how it goes. Usually when I figure out how to work a new program I find it (relatively) easy so hopefully I will be able to figure out these programs too. If not, I'll have to find a career better suited to my skills.

    Thanks again for your replies. I'm going to book myself a holiday with some of the money I saved, and use the rest to buy some of these programs for my PC.


  • #15
    colly10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭colly10


    As the above have said it's not a bad course but it's too basic to get a job out of. There are many other areas each of which could easily make up a course in themselves. If you were to do this course, you would probably need another one about database design/sql and then another course about some scripting language. When you've learnt one scripting language then you would take the concepts you learned from that to learn others yourself.
    Theres no real quick fix to get a job in web development that I know of and unless you were willing to put in alot of time yourself and also do a number of courses then your probably better off giving this one a miss


  • #16
    p
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭p


    Thanks for the reply. That clarifies things a bit. Could I ask again though, what's your current background. If we know where you're coming from it'll give us a better idea what advice to give.

    Secondly. I'm just going to point out one slight misconception:
    "I think I should try to learn as much of the development side as possible because it seems to be the most important and just consider design to be secondary."
    If you're interesting in being a designer, then that is 100% incorrect. A web designer doesn't need to learn learn PHP or programming. They'll know HTML & CSS but they don't need to know server-side stuff like PHP. Having a basic understanding helps, but In the last 4 years I've been working as a web designer I've never written any PHP code, just worked with developers who did, and we'd work together to integrate my HTML into their stuff. PHP is a developers job, it's not a designers. And there's no point trying to learn two different careers, it won't help you at all.


    There's actually a very easy way to get into the web design industry, but it's not sexy or glamorus. In a lot of web companies there's a role for 'junior web designer' or sometimes 'HTML/CSS coder' or 'frontend developer'. That role is for someone who knows HTML/CSS well, and can take the designs done by the senior designer and will convert them to HTML/CSS before they then get handed over to the developers. Some companies will also be open to taking on someone who knows a good bit and train them in a bit too.


    I think at the stage you're at, the best thing would be to get a book, since that will give you some structrued learning. Create a few sites for yourself, friends and family, learn your HTML & CSS very well, and start applying for jobs.

    Here's a few key books I'd recommend. (In order of beginner to more advanced)
    http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596101978/ (very good all rounder book for beginners)
    http://www.maxdesign.com.au/book/ (despite it's name, this is a great book)
    http://www.friendsofed.com/book.html?isbn=1590593812 (More CSS)
    http://www.cssmastery.com/ (More Advanced CSS)



    Oh. Just to add. You can do a paid FÁS course in web design. Again, like the above course it's nothing special but will give you a good starting point. Doing a course, even if it's not perfect will probably help you get started. You'll just need to be aware that it won't teach you any actual _design_ skills, but will help you get started. You could consider doing a Masters in Multimedia in DCU or Trinity.


  • #17
    colly10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭colly10


    MistyCheese wrote: »
    Thanks again for your replies. I'm going to book myself a holiday with some of the money I saved, and use the rest to buy some of these programs for my PC.

    The likes of sql, javascript, php, apache, mysql are not like programs that you are familiar with (such as dreamweaver etc). Most of these things (anything around development) are languages that you'll be learning. The programs needed to interpret these scripts etc... are mainly free (or at least you can use free programs to get a feel for them).

    If you would like to get a general idea of whats involved so you can learn further id advise you to buy a book called php and mysql for dummies and download the latest versions of the programs that come on the cd in the book. You will probably be able to pick this up quite quickly yourself and it will at least give you a good start and idea of what it's all about


  • #18
    Trojan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,415 ✭✭✭✭Trojan


    One thing I'd recommend is buy a domain name (.com $9) related to one of your hobbies/passions, buy yourself a cheap hosting solution (e.g. Blacknight SOHO €35/year), and go install a couple of CMS's on there. Maybe Drupal, Joomla and/or Wordpress. Start blogging and find a good theme you like and start hacking it up. Add Analytics, Hittail, 103Bees, Crazy Egg etc and figure what's good & what's bad. Then start all over again with another site.

    In 2-3 years time when you're more experienced you might have some sites you're interested in & can monetise :)

    Edit: before you go spending cash on software check out http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=231147

    🎙️ The Recognized Authority Podcast



  • #19
    herya
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭herya


    p wrote: »
    Secondly. I'm just going to point out one slight misconception:
    "I think I should try to learn as much of the development side as possible because it seems to be the most important and just consider design to be secondary."
    If you're interesting in being a designer, then that is 100% incorrect. A web designer doesn't need to learn learn PHP or programming. They'll know HTML & CSS but they don't need to know server-side stuff like PHP. Having a basic understanding helps, but In the last 4 years I've been working as a web designer I've never written any PHP code, just worked with developers who did, and we'd work together to integrate my HTML into their stuff. PHP is a developers job, it's not a designers. And there's no point trying to learn two different careers, it won't help you at all.

    Good point, I think a lot of advice given to the OP here does not differentiate between design/development angles. I guess for you it's better to concentrate on the design side first - if you want to be a web designer - and possibly move on from there.

    Firts, you need to have an understanding of how the internet works and if you need any further education on this one of these simple courses might be just fine. It's not enough to know where the Put button is in Dreamweaver, you need to know about FTP protocol that is behind it. Internet protocols, web hosting, domains, file/multimedia formats that can be used and which is good for what, you need to know all that.

    I'm not sure if you can find any class on the actual design process. This is the tricky part. If you don't have any formal background you need to read on design, get yourself some good books, get interested in art maybe. Typography and colour theory included. Having innate good taste helps. Read feedback on the designs posted by other folks, learn from it.

    If I was to get one book only I'd recommend this one:
    http://www.amazon.com/Design-Elements-Graphic-Style-Manual/dp/1592532616/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214137829&sr=8-1
    There is also a series for "non-designers" out there, concentrates on beating good design habits into you and eliminating common mistakes using loads and loads of examples. Might be useful.
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0321534042
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0321441761
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0321303369

    For the actual design you should know your Photoshop in and out (possibly accompanied by Illustrator, possibly replaced by Fireworks depending on the kind of work you do). Loads of good books on Photoshop but for me personally - apart from a live class with a specialist - Lynda.com tutorials cannot be beaten, they are absolutely worth the price. If I was to choose one book to accompany them it would be the current "Photoshop Bible" where you have every single little option explained. Same for Fireworks, Illustrator, etc.

    Plus subscribe to some online resources, there are so many design and tutorial websites it's mind-boggling. Read design articles daily (RSS!), choose the best and the most informative web layout tutorials and work through them patiently, that's how you learn new techniques and tips.
    This site should keep you busy for a while:
    http://www.adobetutorialz.com/categories/Adobe-Photoshop/Web-Layout/
    There are gazillions of tutorials for smaller elements or tips too, this site springs to mind, brilliant stuff:
    http://psdtuts.com/

    HTML/CSS is another step, while Dreamweaver is your friend you should not rely on it too much, again you need to understand what you're doing and be able to hand code if needed (Dreamweaver is good especially used in split view mode - code plus preview, TopStyle is another great text editor).

    Many good XHTML/CSS books around plus search online to find tutorials on how to translate your design to a working website. It's like building a bridge between your design skills and your coding skills and is a skill in itself.
    Here is an example of a very good tutorial of this kind:
    http://nettuts.com/site-builds/from-psd-to-html-building-a-set-of-website-designs-step-by-step/
    If you need guidance re: Dreamweaver or other apps Lynda.com has them covered too.

    JavaScript, at least basic understanding should also be part of your learning. As a web designer you should at least be able to use ready made scripts and to tweak them slightly when needed.

    That's usually where web designer's job ends and web developer takes over to add the backend, programming, databases etc. What you produce must be clean and clear enough for them to know where and how to put their stuff in, and sometimes you'll be working along with them to put the whole structure together.

    Hope it helps a little. V interesting thread BTW!

    Edited to add: I'm in similar situation, returning to this line of work after a couple of years of doing something else entirely & therefore refreshing all I know. From my experience if only you are genuinely interested, like learning this stuff for yourself, have a good taste and love this feeling of looking at the finished design - you should be fine!


  • #20
    MistyCheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,006 ✭✭✭MistyCheese


    Yes, :D I, for one, really appreciate all the advice on what I should concentrate on next and what I should be focussing on. And also the correcting of some things that I had generally wrong.

    The original question was the course because they sent me out a letter asking me to pay and I got suspicious because they were asking for all of the money upfront now and it doesn't start until October! I wrote to clarify if they were asking for the entire fee or could I arrange a deposit but I haven't heard back from them. Doesn't matter now anyway, I won't be doing it, it sounds like the money will be better spent on books and on hosting. If it weren't so expensive I would do it because as DonkeyStyle pointed out, I could end up in the position of having to edit ann old site.

    To answer your question p, I don't really have a lot of background to tell you about, I'm really only starting out. I haven't made any websites that are live, I'm just practising basic HTML codes using Notepad and IE or Firefox. I have a really long way to go. But I want to make sure I don't rush into anything stupid (like I was about to). I'd rather take my time and be really comfortable that I'm learning everything I can before moving on. If it takes me a long time to get to grips with the technology then I'm probably not suited to web design because I know that things do move very quickly and new processes and methods are constantly being brought out.

    At the moment I don't have Internet at home because I just moved and it hasn't been installed yet. As soon as it is I'll be visiting all of those links that everyone has kindly provided and will get stuck in. It's a tiny bit frustrating but as soon as it's in I'll be working at it as much as I can.


  • #21
    p
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭p


    MistyCheese wrote: »
    To answer your question p, I don't really have a lot of background to tell you about, I'm really only starting out. I haven't made any websites that are live, I'm just practising basic HTML codes using Notepad and IE or Firefox. I have a really long way to go. But I want to make sure I don't rush into anything stupid (like I was about to). I'd rather take my time and be really comfortable that I'm learning everything I can before moving on. If it takes me a long time to get to grips with the technology then I'm probably not suited to web design because I know that things do move very quickly and new processes and methods are constantly being brought out.
    You have TONS of background. How old are you, what do you work at now, do you have any 3rd level education etc...
    The reason that I ask is that it may be possible to leverage assets you don't realise you have depending on your background.

    I'd definitely look at FÁS as they offered courses that you actually get paid to do.

    All the best though, sounds like a good idea to dip your toes in the water and see how you get on. If you get a feeling that you like it then there'll be plenty of folks here to offer their advice & help! :)


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