dtt switch off

big_moe · 19-05-2008 08:09PM #1

adrian weckler, journalist with the sunday business post.

techno "expert"

for ages he has been writing poorly researched and incorrect articles.

as somebody in the technology (home AV) business, I find it increasingly frustrating as I have a losing battle to fight to try explain to punters why "yer man in the paper" is wrong. just because its printed, doesnt make it true!!

the straw that broke was last sunday (may 18th) about how DTT will be crap.

here is the article,
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2008/05/18/story32892.asp

stupidest quote:
"Does digital tv mean better tv quality??

No, just switch between your analogue and digital and see for yourself, no difference"

[i dont have the article in front of me, so im paraphrasing]

tosser. how can nobody be monitoring what he saying??

/rant over

If he reads this forum; Adrian, i'd love to speak to you and see where you get your "facts" from.

adam

byte · 19-05-2008 08:24PM

Hm, not much of an article to be fair. An opinion piece is probably the best way of describing it. I get the feeling he's not looking forward to DTT! :pac:

Sam Russell · 19-05-2008 11:54PM

What a load of junk, his article has no merit whatsoever.

1. He does not understand 'compression' and what it achieves.
2. He does not understand 'digital' and how it improves transmission.
3. He does not understand the delivery system for television - satellite vs terrestial vs cable.
4. He does not understand why anyone needs a set top box, the tuner of the particular TV is old technology. A new V will have the correct tuner.
5. He does not understand much does he. And he writes for the Post?

big_moe · 20-05-2008 12:12AM

Sam Russell wrote: »

What a load of junk, his article has no merit whatsoever.

1. He does not understand 'compression' and what it achieves.
2. He does not understand 'digital' and how it improves transmission.
3. He does not understand the delivery system for television - satellite vs terrestial vs cable.
4. He does not understand why anyone needs a set top box, the tuner of the particular TV is old technology. A new V will have the correct tuner.
5. He does not understand much does he. And he writes for the Post?

THANK YOU!!!

I read most of his articles, and the majority of them are way off. He has a few bits of correct info (sometimes) but for the most part his articles are totally incorrect.

It's terrible because he is greatly misleading the general public. I'm not looking for perfection in anybody's articles, but errors of this magnitude are unacceptable.

He is either doing zero research, or else just researching in the wrong places. Or maybe he is just the face, and somebody else is feeding him this §hite. There was a thread in the Mac forum here a while back about the same stuff and he was way off about them as well (another subject which I am quite knowledgeable on) I don't know..

The reason I posted this is because it needs to be dealt with. I've overlooked it for a long time now but this is just ridiculous. A very credible paper like The Post shouldn't have crap like this printed in it.

Adam

Sam Russell · 20-05-2008 08:45AM

I have been into TV retailers looking for a TV with MPEG4 - none of the ones I talked to knew anything about the DTT trials, about the impending decision to go MPEG4, and even less about which TV has MPEG4 (none as far as I know).

The media does not cover this subject atall, even PC Live has had no coverage, and they pride themselves as being 'Irish Technology'.

RTE should be pushing this now, but they are not.

big_moe · 20-05-2008 09:24AM

there are still are few places that do know what they are talking about!

at the moment there is no word on a tv with mpeg4 built in, and the irish service hasnt been finalised. a very reputable source told me that they are having trouble deciding on the format to use for ppv, but mheg5 is looking to be the choice. when this is decided then we will see tvs with the right tuners built in. panasonic will defo have one as they are a partner of the dtt group in ireland.

adam

Sam Russell · 20-05-2008 10:04AM

Can the CI slot in my TV provide MPEG4 decoding? I've seen CI CAM cards available for this but do not know if they will work.

byte · 20-05-2008 07:49PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Can the CI slot in my TV provide MPEG4 decoding? I've seen CI CAM cards available for this but do not know if they will work.

I believe there is a module that you can plug into the CI slot that will allow MPEG4 channels to work, though no HD channels.

maxg · 21-05-2008 02:44AM

Why should the software of a stb/lcd bring a CI modul into the game if a channel is flagged as not scrambled.
Btw all the newer sony lcd's have a mpeg4 decoder. X3000, X3500, W3000, W4000.

L1011 · 21-05-2008 09:25AM

The Neotion units are mainly used in France where the MPEG4 channels are encrypted to begin with so I dunno if FTA channels will be sent to the CAS.

big_moe · 21-05-2008 09:56AM

maxg wrote: »

Btw all the newer sony lcd's have a mpeg4 decoder. X3000, X3500, W3000, W4000.

i was almost 100% sure they didnt. so.. i've double checked the specs and they dont. they all only have an mpeg2 decoder.

watty · 21-05-2008 10:11AM

The Neotion Module / CAM can do MPEG4 to MPEG2 (though not as good picture as a real MPEG4 direct decoder) and / or do CAM functions with a viewing card.

But a basic CAM on an MPEG4 enabled TV would be cheaper.

On the SD MPEG4 test channel and on my own test transmissions (don't ask) the Neotion + technisat DTT has slight artifacts not on the Lyngbox DTT MPEG4 reception.

The Neotion card does work with clear/FTA MPEG4 channels on an MPEG2 setbox or TV.

Only for 16:9 or HD is digital better than a good analogue signal. Digital is more about fitting more channels in the same spectrum at acceptable quality. It needs about 9Mbps MPEG2 or 4Mbps MPEG4 to be really better quality than Analogue. Typical broadcast bitrates for good channels are similar quality to good reception Analogue, but not Y/C or RGB studio feed analogue at 4:3. Since 16:9 is butchered and resampled for analogue transmission, Digital is generally better than Analogue for Widescreen content.

Because only about 70% of people (or less) with aerial have a good analogue signal, many people will either have no signal or better picture after Analogue switch off.

Cable analogue & MMDS analogue doesn't come close to quality even of lower bitrate Terrestrial /Satellite Digital channels.

Sam Russell · 21-05-2008 10:16AM

I think that Sony do not say if they have MPEG4 decoders, because it will affect sales of non MPEG4 sets. No mention of MPEG4 is made in their specs - and I do think some of their top models do have it.

Is the MPEG decoding done in software, and if so, could a firmware upgrade add MPEG4 decoding to existing sets?

I think that if a CI card is installed, the signal is passed through it for decoding or unscrambling. Little technical info is available on any of these products. I am not sure if it comercial secrets or to confuse/hoodwink the customer.

big_moe · 21-05-2008 10:23AM

watty wrote: »

The Neotion Module / CAM can do MPEG4 to MPEG2 (though not as good picture as a real MPEG4 direct decoder) and / or do CAM functions with a viewing card.

yes i am aware of those, its not like maxg said though. he said the newer ones have an mpeg4 decoder. if that was the case i'd thought they'd advertise that!

sam russell wrote:

i think that Sony do not say if they have MPEG4 decoders, because it will affect sales of non MPEG4 sets.

i doubt it. the X & W are the most expensive tvs they make. people arent going to spend an extra few hundred quid on them just to have an mpeg4 decoder. people that buy the X & W arent buying just for the mpeg4 side of things.

PauloMN · 21-05-2008 10:50AM

What a crap article. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

He is also completely confusing readers by mixing a discussion on the delivery platforms (analogue v digital) with content discussions.

L1011 · 21-05-2008 12:12PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Is the MPEG decoding done in software, and if so, could a firmware upgrade add MPEG4 decoding to existing sets?

Possibly. Unlikely.

maxg · 21-05-2008 12:23PM

big_moe wrote: »

i was almost 100% sure they didnt. so.. i've double checked the specs and they dont. they all only have an mpeg2 decoder.

You should check the specs at sony europe, the advertisements in central europe and the reports of owners in central europe.
Sony doesn't mention an hd tuner for dtt in UK/Ireland for that lcd's because the tuner is not dvb-t2 compatible and the planed standard is dvb-t2 for hd via freeview in the UK.

maxg · 21-05-2008 12:37PM

watty wrote: »

The Neotion Module / CAM can do MPEG4 to MPEG2 (though not as good picture as a real MPEG4 direct decoder) and / or do CAM functions with a viewing card.

But a basic CAM on an MPEG4 enabled TV would be cheaper.

On the SD MPEG4 test channel and on my own test transmissions (don't ask) the Neotion + technisat DTT has slight artifacts not on the Lyngbox DTT MPEG4 reception.

The Neotion card does work with clear/FTA MPEG4 channels on an MPEG2 setbox or TV.

The sd mpeg4 test channel is or better was marked as scrambled and got conax as scrambling system in the conditional access table.
A neotion viacess mpeg4 modul wouldn't had worked. Same for a channel which got no scrambled flag and no scrambling system attached in the CAT.

l

watty · 21-05-2008 01:03PM

Firmware updates don't add MPEG4. You need more powerfull HW/different chip set.

maxg, your last post is incoherent!

My neotion module has no CAM feature enabled. Only SD MPEG4 to MPEG2. It has a SIM sized card reader and ethernet port.

The Lyngbox does native MPEG4 SD and HD on DTT and Sat (DVB-s and DVb-s2)

maxg · 21-05-2008 01:55PM

It looks like you don't understand how a stb/lcd and CI modul are working together.
At startup the ci modul reports to the box which scrambling systems are supported and the firmware send only the streams of the channels to the ci modul which are marked scrambled and are marked to use a supported scrambling system.

dgently · 21-05-2008 02:17PM

Both Sony and Panasonic have announced TVs that are marketed as supporting Freeview HD which should, on paper, work here.

I do not know whether they feature a CI slot.

maxg · 21-05-2008 02:43PM

The dvb-t2 standard is not finalized till now and nobody can support anything which is not ready.
DVB-T2 is a new modulation method and there are plans in the uk to start HD via freeview with DVB-T2 at the end of 2009.
The new standard for HD in the UK is than mpeg4 transported via the modulation method DVB-T2.

pbirney · 21-05-2008 10:02PM

big_moe wrote: »

i was almost 100% sure they didnt. so.. i've double checked the specs and they dont. they all only have an mpeg2 decoder.

I can confirm that the Sony 46X3000 does decode MPEG4.

dgently · 22-05-2008 08:44AM

maxg wrote: »

The dvb-t2 standard is not finalized till now and nobody can support anything which is not ready.

You're right maxg, my post is misleading. While it's true that we've seen announcements of "HD Terrestrial" tvs, it is not yet clear that they will support the UK or Irish implementations, nor whether they could be upgraded via software to do so.

UK situation is nicely summarised here http://hdtvorg.co.uk/news/articles/2008041001.htm

watty · 22-05-2008 09:53AM

Most HD Terrestrial TVs are as misleading as a 32" 1366 x768 TV claiming to be HD.

many don't even do MPEG4. What they often mean is that it will receive Digital Terrestrial MPEG2 and that if you have an external HD set box with MPEG4 & HDMI, you can display a 1080i picture (though it may be resampling 1920x1080i down to 1366 x 768p)

Note that a 1920x1080p native resolution TV will give poorer broadcast reception (great for progressive DVDs) than a native 1920x1080i TV as ALL 1080 line broadcast are i not p because "p" needs twice the bandwidth. It's possible to perfectly convert 1920x1080 @ 24p to 1920x1080 @25i with no loss of sharpness. It's impossible to convert 25i to 25p without losing some sharpness on movement. Sadly many of the cheaper 1366x 768p sets don't de-interlace at all. They take half the lines which automatically gives 540p and rescale the 1920x540p to 1366x768p

A really top end farudja de-interlacing chip http://www.av-outlet.com/en-us/dept_335.html will only lose slight sharpness, and only on rapid motion, which LCDs & Plasmas blur anyway, no matter response time.

reslfj · 23-05-2008 03:59PM

dgently wrote: »

You're right maxg, my post is misleading. While it's true that we've seen announcements of "HD Terrestrial" tvs, it is not yet clear that they will support the UK or Irish implementations, nor whether they could be upgraded via software to do so.

UK situation is nicely summarised here http://hdtvorg.co.uk/news/articles/2008041001.htm

It it NOT nicely summarised - a large part of the text is WRONG!

"Consumers will need new equipment to pick up HD Freeview signals - namely set-top boxes which can decode the more advanced MPEG-4 codec, rather than the existing MPEG-2."

But in the UK, consumers will need a new box to receive DVB-T2 signals, too. The Ofcom plan is by regulation to force both changes ( MPEG-2->4 and DVB-T->T2) into the same box at the start of HD DTT transmissions i.e. at DSO ( 2009-2012).

This will save DTT viewers a very large sum.

"You may be aware that some TV's - namely the new Sony Bravia W4000 range of LCD TV's have an integrated HD TV Tuner and AVC-HD decoder which sits beside the DVB-T digital tuners. This eliminates the need for set-top box to access terrestrial HDTV programming."

All current TV's including all Sony models will need an external STB to receive UK HDTV via DTT. I France the Sony larger models will work, as France will for now transmits MPEG-4 encoded TV over DVB-T. Norway transmits MPEG-4 encoded SDTV over DVB-T.

"A word of caution however, while Ofcom has been suggesting ...
The problem is that UK H.264 HD looks likely to use the DVB-T2 standard, which is not compatible with the new tuners in Sony's W4000 series for example"

H.264 (= MPEG-4 part10) is a video compression standard and has nothing to do with the DVB-T2 digital transmission standard - DVB-T2 is 'radio-waves'.

So MPEG-4 wil not use DVB-T2, but MPEG-4 encoded video will be carried from the TV-tower to you aerial and TV set by DVB-T2 modulated radio-waves.

dgently wrote:

..it is not yet clear that they will support the UK .... implementation, nor whether they could be upgraded via software to do so.

It is 100% clear that there cannot be any 'software upgrade' to DVB-T2 .

The DVB-T2 reciever needs much more processing power and memory in the reciever 'chip' than the DVB-T standard. The new DVB-T2 chips will, however, be able to receive the old DVB-T signals.

Please note that some of the less expensive TV's - even HD Ready models - may have MPEG-4 decoders, but these can only decode SDTV signals.

Check all specs. - get it in writing.

Lars

PS! I hope it is NOT "dtt switch off" , but ASO (analogue switch off) or DSO (digital switch over).

Sam Russell · 23-05-2008 04:21PM

Does anyone have a Neotion MPEG4 CI card I could try? I do not fancy paying out for one on the off chance it might work. The current two MPEG4 channels on test would either work (SD or HD) or not.

I have a Sony with a CI slot in Dublin.

reslfj · 23-05-2008 04:57PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Does anyone have a Neotion MPEG4 CI card I could try? I do not fancy paying out for one on the off chance it might work. The current two MPEG4 channels on test would either work (SD or HD) or not.

I have a Sony with a CI slot in Dublin.

Neotion does NOT work with HD signals nor does your TV's MPEG-2 decompressor.

Lars

The Cush · 23-05-2008 11:34PM

The new Sony KDL-xxE4000 range probably includes an DVB-T MPEG-4 tuner but you would not know this by checking the specs on their Irish or UK websites.
According to komplett.ie and komplett.co.uk this range of TV's includes Digital TV Tuner: DVB-T, MPEG Profiles and Levels: MPEG4 AVC/H.264 HP@L4.
Checking out Sonys websites in Europe also indicates that this range of TVs include an MPEG-4 tuner.

Also the new Sony Bravia 26" LCD-TV KDL-26V4500 listed on komplett but not on Sony UK and Ireland websites yet, may also include an MPEG-4 tuner as it does in Germany and France for example.

But as Sony indicates on their website Technical Specifications - Please be aware that the features/specifications can differ from country to country.

big_moe wrote: »

at the moment there is no word on a tv with mpeg4 built in, and the irish service hasnt been finalised. a very reputable source told me that they are having trouble deciding on the format to use for ppv, but mheg5 is looking to be the choice. when this is decided then we will see tvs with the right tuners built in. panasonic will defo have one as they are a partner of the dtt group in ireland.
adam

According to Minimum Receiver Requirements for DTT in Ireland, (v1.0, 6 Feb 2008) "If the Receiver supports middleware, the ability to receive and output Data Broadcast Services presented in accordance with the "MHEG-5 UK Profile, version 1.06[17]" is a minimum requirement".

maxg · 24-05-2008 06:56AM

There is no "HD Tuner". Its like digital aerial.
The job of a tuner is to demodulate the signal and convert the signal to bits and bytes and do the error correction. Currently there are only tuners on the market which can handle dvb-t. The specs for DVB-T2 are not ready till now.
Mpeg decoding is the job of the mpeg decoder behind and the mpeg decoder can be on a extra chip or be part of the cpu. The newer sony X and W series have an mpeg2/mpeg4 decoder on board and an combined dvb-t/dvb-c/analogue tuner.

watty · 24-05-2008 09:17AM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Does anyone have a Neotion MPEG4 CI card I could try? I do not fancy paying out for one on the off chance it might work. The current two MPEG4 channels on test would either work (SD or HD) or not.

I have a Sony with a CI slot in Dublin.

It will never work for HD.
1) The bit rate is too high even for HD Sets
2) Non-HD sets can't take MPEG2 HD

The Neotion Pocket Duo is a poorer solution than a Set box for MPEG4:
1) Much poorer quality due to real time MPEG2 encoding
2) Poorer quality because signal is re-encoded
3) HD not possible
4) Substantial part of cost of a set box.

It is worth while if the CAM and a viewing card is used. Hence it is supplied by PayTV operators in France and you don't care about quality and don't ever want HD on DTT.

It was /is a stop gap solution till MPEG4 set boxes came out. The MPEG4 boxes now exist and getting cheaper.

Few TVs have HDD for PVR function. Push VOD and PVR is the future for flexible TV. TVs are becoming HiRes video monitors for the Digital Media Centre / PVR / Gaming system etc.

Go the set box route.

dtt switch off

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