Fidel Castro is retiring - what did he achieve?

19-02-2008 11:55pm #1

The title says it all!

Things that spring to mind are:

One of the best health services in the world along with low infant mortality.

Probably the only country to get near to acheiving the "ideal communist state", i.e. all being equal, except for the communist leaders of course.

Sticking two fingers up to the USA!

Staying in power!

kreuzberger · 20-02-2008 5:51am

In order to answer that question its only necessary to look at the islands carribean neighbours such as Haiti , Dominican Republic , Jamaica and the standards of living for the ordianry people there . Quite fankly they are poverty stricken , illiterate crapholes suffering all sorts of political instability , coups , murderous dictators like the Duvalier dynasty and the Ton Ton Mavoute , chronic poverty , social ills and an infrastructural inability to cope with the natural diasters that plague the region during tropicl storms

Cuba has managed to maintain a dignified way of life for its citizens . Educated , cultured , excellent health service , the storms that caused disaster in the rest of the Carribean and particularly New Orleans were taken by Cuba in its stride with the correct infrastructure put in place and forward planning to ensure the populaces welfare .
The economy is a mess , undoubtedly . But 40 years of an economic blockade by the worlds pre-eminent superpower on your doorstep and punitive sanctions against anyone considering entering into trade with you is pretty much guaranteed to do that .

The Cuban people now face some tough decisions , and I wish them well for the future .

20-02-2008 10:21am

kreuzberger wrote: »

The economy is a mess , undoubtedly . But 40 years of an economic blockade by the worlds pre-eminent superpower on your doorstep and punitive sanctions against anyone considering entering into trade with you is pretty much guaranteed to do that .

Does make you wonder what shape their economy would have been if there had been no sanctions.

brianthebard · 20-02-2008 3:03pm

Good stuff KB, all excellent points. I also wonder what the cuban economy would look like, I imagine that if they managed to survive at all without trading with the US they would be very rich indeed. As well as first class health care they also have 100% literacy (or as close as you can actually be to 100%). Obviously the ruling party is not popular with everyone in Cuba, but at the time of the revolution there was widespread support for what the rebels achieved. They managed to kick the US out of Cuba (with the exception of Gitmo) after the US had stuck its oar in for more than 50 years. Finally there are the 600+ attempts on Fidels life which he escaped-how many leaders can say that??

Riddle101 · 20-02-2008 3:48pm

I think Fidel Castro is one of the greatest Dictators of his times, and if memory serves me the longest as well. Compared to all the other dictators he was one you could idealise. A national hero, a good leader and he kept the country intact ever since coming into power. Not to mention all the stuff mentioned above.

Snickers Man · 20-02-2008 4:10pm

George Galloway was in good form yesterday on one of the news programs when asked for a comment.

He made much the same points made here, comparing Cuba with its nearest island neighbours, and then when asked "what about all the people who try to get out and go to the US?" he replied that even in his constituency in a deprived part of London, if you were to land a plane and say "Everybody can climb aboard and get a green card, we're going to America", you'd pack it out.

Poor people always want to go where they think they have a chance of making it rich. Not all of them do but the lure, however illusory, is there.

Cuba''s main indicators of health care, eg infant mortality rates and average life expectancy are on a par with most Western Democracies. Check them out on that purveyor of socialist propaganda the CIA World Factbook rather than take my word for it.

Compare the figures for Cuba with those of various random western democracies eg, France, Britain, Germany, US and then compare them with some African countries.

The difference is a little stark.

Whether his successors can resist the lure of a market economy will be an interesting question. Here's wishing them well as they move towards a rapprochement with the US and other western countries.

Red Hand · 20-02-2008 4:32pm

Well, it has been one of the few countries in the world to have managed to stay afloat after encountering the state sponsored terrorism of the US Government dirty tricks campaign.

kreuzberger · 20-02-2008 10:12pm

the same hurricane that hit new orleans passed over Cuba . Go figure . And the cubans are a well educated people , they know how he reat of the world works. People should not underestimate how proud they are of what they have acheived or the manner in which they believe selflessness is a duty and how that has improved their society. I believe theyll be very reluctant to give that up .

Irish_Nomad · 22-02-2008 6:28pm

Snickers Man wrote: »

Here's wishing them well as they move towards a rapprochement with the US and other western countries.

Forgive my ignorance but I thought it was only the USA that applies sanctions against Cuba. What is the problem with other western countries ?

22-02-2008 8:04pm

Irish_Nomad wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance but I thought it was only the USA that applies sanctions against Cuba. What is the problem with other western countries ?

Guilt by association probably, I believe that any nation that traded with Cuba would have been shunned by the US, when they wanted to trade with the US.

kreuzberger · 22-02-2008 8:10pm

Irish_Nomad wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance but I thought it was only the USA that applies sanctions against Cuba. What is the problem with other western countries ?

the problem lies with the nature of the sanctions . If your business has a subsidiary in the US then your company may be fined by the US if it does business with cuba . Example here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2004/dec/09/abbey.spain

This naturally is a strong disincentive towards doing business with Cuba

However the international popularity of the sanctions is evident here

Countries voting to keep the US blockade in place

1992 3 United States, Israel, Romania
1993 4 United States, Israel, Albania, Paraguay
1994 2 United States, Israel
1995 3 United States, Israel, Uzbekistan
1996 2 United States, Israel
1997 3 United States, Israel, Uzbekistan
1998 3 United States, Israel, Marshall Islands
1999 2 United States, Israel
2000 3 United States, Israel, Marshall Islands
2001 3 United States, Israel, Marshall Islands
2002 3 United States, Israel, Marshall Islands
2003 3 United States, Israel, Marshall Islands

In the same years the number of countries voting to demand the US ends its blockade

1992 59
1993 88
1994 101
1995 117
1996 137
1997 147
1998 157
1999 155
2000 167
2001 167
2002 173
2003 179

Riddle101 · 22-02-2008 9:15pm

kreuzberger wrote: »

the problem lies with the nature of the sanctions . If your business has a subsidiary in the US then your company may be fined by the US if it does business with cuba . Example here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2004/dec/09/abbey.spain

This naturally is a strong disincentive towards doing business with Cuba

However the international popularity of the sanctions is evident here

Countries voting to keep the US blockade in place

1992 3 United States, Israel, Romania
1993 4 United States, Israel, Albania, Paraguay
1994 2 United States, Israel
1995 3 United States, Israel, Uzbekistan
1996 2 United States, Israel
1997 3 United States, Israel, Uzbekistan
1998 3 United States, Israel, Marshall Islands
1999 2 United States, Israel
2000 3 United States, Israel, Marshall Islands
2001 3 United States, Israel, Marshall Islands
2002 3 United States, Israel, Marshall Islands
2003 3 United States, Israel, Marshall Islands

In the same years the number of countries voting to demand the US ends its blockade

1992 59
1993 88
1994 101
1995 117
1996 137
1997 147
1998 157
1999 155
2000 167
2001 167
2002 173
2003 179

I wonder why Romania and Uzbekistan wanted to keep the sanctions in place

Red Hand · 22-02-2008 9:38pm

To get into the US's good books?

"We supported you here, here, and here in these UN votes...give us aid/money!"

We support the War on Terror...give us aid/money!"

Riddle101 · 22-02-2008 11:32pm

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

To get into the US's good books?

"We supported you here, here, and here in these UN votes...give us aid/money!"

We support the War on Terror...give us aid/money!"

I guess that's why Romania is on that list once then, they must be still waiting for that aid/money

Capt'n Midnight · 22-02-2008 11:50pm

I nearly laughed when Bush gave his speach on free elections / democracy was thinking about the brother. I don't mean Castro's brother , but Jeb and the whole Flordia thing.

kreuzberger · 23-02-2008 9:36am

Riddle101 wrote: »

I wonder why Romania and Uzbekistan wanted to keep the sanctions in place

apart from aid it was a case of former soviet republics asserting the fact they werent soviet republics anymore . Bit childish . The suden influx of coca cola and cowboy hats went to their heads

Shutuplaura · 24-02-2008 3:38am

How popular is Fidel with ordinary Cubans? - I'm not playing devils advocate I honestly don't know. I heard andecdotally that he's both hated and loved. For instance, the only Cuban I ever met hated him but I work with a guy who's spent time there and reckons that he's loved by the people. News outlets trying to promote an agenda can imply either. It interests me becasue I'd be more comfortable making a judgement on his government if I knew what the people who lived under it thought.

kreuzberger · 24-02-2008 8:36am

Shutuplaura wrote: »

How popular is Fidel with ordinary Cubans? - I'm not playing devils advocate I honestly don't know. I heard andecdotally that he's both hated and loved. For instance, the only Cuban I ever met hated him but I work with a guy who's spent time there and reckons that he's loved by the people. News outlets trying to promote an agenda can imply either. It interests me becasue I'd be more comfortable making a judgement on his government if I knew what the people who lived under it thought.

If Fidel Castro was not massively popular with the Cuban people then its a very simple fact , a certainty , that with the biggest superpower on earth on his doorstep trying to get rid of him for the past 60 years hed have been gone long ago . The collapse of the soviet union did not even remotely affect Castros popularity at home and he was never under pressure despite acute economic problems in cuba .

Capt'n Midnight · 24-02-2008 2:32pm

Shutuplaura wrote:

For instance, the only Cuban I ever met hated him but I work with a guy who's spent time there and reckons that he's loved by the people.

In most countries you have a large section of the population who hate the other side. Look at FF here or "democrats" Vs. Republicans.

AckwelFoley · 24-02-2008 2:44pm

Yea, tell the thousands of cubans that risk their life crossing the sea in makeshift boats trying to get into america that he was a great leader :rolleyes:

24-02-2008 4:16pm

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence! As it was personal freedom of choice of the type taken for granted in democratic nations were largely unavailable to most Cubans.

PDN · 24-02-2008 8:46pm

He helped turn the island into the largest museum of classic American automobiles. That should count for something on a History & Heritage forum.

brianthebard · 25-02-2008 9:39pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

I nearly laughed when Bush gave his speach on free elections / democracy was thinking about the brother. I don't mean Castro's brother , but Jeb and the whole Flordia thing.

Hearing anyone in a two party system talking about democracy is fairly laughable imo.

Gobán Saor · 03-03-2008 4:39pm

I never cease to be amazed at the soft spot that most Irish liberal left types have for Cuba. And the continuous references to the wonderful, amazing, truly worldclass healthcare system. Hmmmm:rolleyes: It's a dictatorship, folks, wake up and smell the coffee!!! They've got the full works, all-pervasive secret police, brutality, political prisoners, a one-party state, emigration forbidden, no freedom of speech, repression of gays etc, etc. Don't believe me? Take a look at Amnesty's report on Cuba http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Regions/Americas/Cuba which reports that "political dissidents, independent journalists and human rights activists continued to be harassed, intimidated and detained, some without charge or trial." Of course you couldn't just look that up if you were living in Cuba. Cos you're not allowed own a computer. And anyway, if you were, there's only one ISP. Owned by the Government of course. Who monitor your email and restrict web access from the few existing public access points. Amnesty even report that "Journalist Guillermo Fariñas staged a seven-month hunger strike to obtain access to the Internet, without success." All radio, television and newspapers are state controlled too. Why, anyone would think the Cuban Government was trying to suppress unhappy Cubans from expressing their discontent with life.:rolleyes::rolleyes: When in reality they're all perfectly happy living in an idyllic socialist paradise overdosing on all the worldclass healthcare they can soak up.

:D

As for Kreuzberger who posted:

People should not underestimate how proud they are of what they have acheived or the manner in which they believe selflessness is a duty and how that has improved their society. I believe theyll be very reluctant to give that up

I'm somewhat sceptical. There is no www.boards.cu where that proposition could be freely debated by Cubans themselves. Suspicious that, huh? After all, it could be tested very easily by allowing people basic democracy and a free vote. If the Cuban authorities really, really believed their system produced a happy population, they wouldn't be afraid of that, would they? Or better still, allow democracy AND freedom to emigrate. Imagine the triumph for the Revolution if the Cuban people spurned the tawdry attractions of emigration to the USA and re-elected the Brothers Castro in a free and fair election monitored by an independent and free media. Ho hum. Can't see it happening any time soon.

The only conclusion I can draw is that Castro has grimly held onto power by the normal methods of oppression and denial of human rights favoured by dictators the world over.

But of course none of that matters if you've got a good healthcare system. Right?

Fratton Fred · 03-03-2008 5:01pm

I heard Manic Street Preachers say the other day, whilst they admire Cuba, the irony is that they would not be allowed to be so politically vocal if they lived there.

He has done a lot of good, but do we see the full picture? comparisons to Haiti, Jamaica and the dominican Republic are fine, but are they a fair comparison?

Capt'n Midnight · 04-03-2008 12:25am

Maslow's hierarchy of needs would suggest that freedom of speech is something you worry about on a full stomach.

Bottom line, if you are poor in Libya or Cuba you may loose some human rights, but poor people in Nigeria or most of Latin America starve to death every day.

Gobán Saor · 04-03-2008 2:16am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Maslow's hierarchy of needs would suggest that freedom of speech is something you worry about on a full stomach.

That is true. But it's not the full picture. Generally if you live in a country that denies freedom of speech, your chances of having a full stomach are not good. Try it. First, compile a list of countries that allow fairly liberal freedom of speech and freedom of political activity. Second, compile a list of countries that don't. Then compare average living standards among the two lists. Notice anything?

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Bottom line, if you are poor in Libya or Cuba you may loose some human rights, but poor people in Nigeria or most of Latin America starve to death every day.

OK, I see. It's fine to deny human rights to the Cuban people because poor people in Nigeria or the rest of Latin America are much worse off

kreuzberger · 09-03-2008 5:40pm

Just the opther day Mr Bush insisted that America should still be able to torture people , particularly in Cuba . The worlds biggest and most aggressive superpower that has traditionally regarded Cuba as a US colony sits right on its doorstep , adopting an aggressive and warlike pose and attitude towards Cuban dignity and freedom since the 1960s . This is precisely what has caused a society which needs to defend itself to introduce draconian legislation . Any time the US and Britian were threatened by a superpower they also resorted to war time censorship , internment , internal surveillance . Cuba has had the misfortune of being under constant threat and constant embargo .

That is true. But it's not the full picture. Generally if you live in a country that denies freedom of speech, your chances of having a full stomach are not good. Try it. First, compile a list of countries that allow fairly liberal freedom of speech and freedom of political activity. Second, compile a list of countries that don't. Then compare average living standards among the two lists. Notice anything?

yes , most have or result from regimes and dictators supported by the USA and Britian . Everything from the Taleban to Saudi Arabia ,East Timorese genocide , Papa Doc Duvalier to Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge and Pinochet has had US and British support and encouragement .
Cuba cannot be compared remotely to any of them .
Only a few years ago in the aftermath of hurricane Katrina Cuban citizens hit by the same hurricane were fine and didnt suffer any repression or ill effects . New Orleans poor citizens were left to starve and were still being shot down like dogs in the streets while foraging for food weeks later .
Cuba was the forst country to send them aid while their own president was still strolling round a golf course doing sweet feck all . Except refusing entry to Cuban aid .
Its obvious which country has more regard for the welfare of its citizens , and which is the more dignified society .

Fratton Fred · 09-03-2008 7:19pm

The thread is about Cuba, I can understand the US, but why are you bringing Britain into this?

kreuzberger · 09-03-2008 8:47pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Maslow's hierarchy of needs would suggest that freedom of speech is something you worry about on a full stomach.

Bottom line, if you are poor in Libya or Cuba you may loose some human rights, but poor people in Nigeria or most of Latin America starve to death every day.

many of them are shot jailed and tortured simply for pointing out theyre hungry .
Cubas ally Hugo Chavez is denounced by the west for giving free food to poor people and setting a bad example . Apparently thats dictatorship . He visted Britian last year and despite being a visiting national president Tony Blair refused to meet him . Wouldnt do to upset the special relationship I suppose .

Neamhshuntasach · 30-03-2008 1:09am

I've spent a total of 7 months in Cuba over 5 years and went to college with Americans of Cuban background and had an ex girlfriend that was Cuban. And believe me the resentment of a lot of them is the sanctions imposed by the United States rather than the leadership of Fidel. Even though they live and work in the US and will eventually become citizens, most of the ones i talked to had nothing bad to say about Fidel. The only reason they fled was to escape poverty. The poverty brought upon them by blockades and sanctions. A lot of Cubans know they don't have some of the freedoms that other countries have. But they believe in and are so proud of their socialist state and how it was brought about in '59. And Cuba has a voter turnout percentage of around 95% or higher compared with about 45% before the revolution and also in comparison to how Bush was elected with around 40%. Counting is done in public and children guard the ballot boxes in the stations. Military aren't allowed on the street on voting days so it's not as if people are intimidated to vote.

And for how miserable a lot of people think the lives of Cubans are in Cuba i reckon you would quickly change your mind if you ever get there. I have never met a more friendlier or happier looking race in my life. The people are amazing.

Fidel Castro is retiring - what did he achieve?

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