The Mahon Tribunal-discussion (please read this threads first post before replying)

Akrasia · 23-03-2008 12:31PM

mike65 wrote: »

Noel Ahern was just on Newstalk making a show of himself (only he thought he was being intelligent).

Mike.

The utter cheek of him to blame the tribunal for unfair treatment of Mrs Carruth when it was his brothers decision to leave her hanging out to dry.

The opposition really needs to go on the offensive on this issue. It looks like they're trying to use Carruth as a weapon in the war of public opinion by intentionally setting her up for a fall so they can claim the Tribunal is a vicious device that is out to get ordinary people.

partholon · 23-03-2008 12:45PM

i was insulted by that assertation too. its blatently obvious to everyone that ahern left her twisting in the wind for HIS actions. if the twat could explain what the hell was going on the woman wouldnt be put through this. simple as.

very poor showing by the host to allow him away with so much with out countering the argument in any effective manner.

in fact ALOT of the radio this morning has been either completly dismissive of ms carruths testimony or unashamedly pro ahern. marian finucane for instance was a disgrace. im PAYING for this crap. if FF want a half hour propaganda campaign let em pay for it out of their media budget, not my liscence fee and taxes.

another ahern there too, i think it was dermot this time though im open to correction as i had to turn it off. theres only so much insulting of my intelligence i can take.

Sponge Bob · 23-03-2008 02:54PM

what connection has there been between carruth and bertie/ff for the past 10 years bar the solicitor she shared with bertie a few years back ( and sacked since )

in other words why would she bother lying for him ??

mike65 · 23-03-2008 02:58PM

Old loyalties? Pressure that we know nothing of? A word in her ear? In FF you don't make enemies.

Mike.

Mr.Micro · 23-03-2008 08:30PM

Radio presenters IMO are part of the establishment and will not go in the main against the status quo or risk offending the likes of the FF grandees. If one looks back at the Ahern/Dobson interview in 2006 it was almost reverential, done in soft focus. I think RTE has in recent times been sympathetic to FF. Its like being polite to FF big noises as one of them may be the next Taoiseach and my career and all that.

murphaph · 23-03-2008 08:41PM

Don't get mad. Get even. Remember all this at the next election and remind everyone you know of it. FF need a good hard kicking to remind them they are NOT the "natural party of government".

David Cameron (not even PM!) was followed by a journalist and photographed breaking traffic laws on his bike this week and a big hoo-hah was made of it which required him to make an apology.

We are so far away from that sort of holding our politicians to account it's not even funny! We have a current Taoiseach defending dodgy actions and he's left in situ. THIS WOULD BE THE HEADLINE EVERY DAY if it were over the water. The public would not be allowed to forget/ignore it and they'd retaliate to it by ousting the politician at the next election. We are so bloody apathetic here.

partholon · 24-03-2008 01:03PM

Sponge Bob wrote: »

what connection has there been between carruth and bertie/ff for the past 10 years bar the solicitor she shared with bertie a few years back ( and sacked since )

in other words why would she bother lying for him ??

word on politics.ie is that ms carruth is noel aherns niece.

ive NO proof of this but its whats being maintained there. still no word on whether berts brother in law is STILL the head of the revenue appeals comissioner or not.

DancesWithChimp · 24-03-2008 01:32PM

Noel Ahern is making out that £15,000stg is no big deal!

Wow, the arrogance of these people and the contempt they have for our intelligence knows no bounds.

This is HUGE money back in 94.
Its larger than the average industrial yearly wage!

Nice spin too from FF too considering we are not talking about just 15,000.

We are talking about unaccounted for lodgements of over £70,000stg...and that's just the sterling!
Forget the unaccounted for £100,000 odd punts or the unaccounted for $45,000.

All this money floating around and yet poor old Bertie needs dig-outs because he's fallen on hard times.

It's all just a simple misunderstanding, I'm sure.

Rock Climber · 24-03-2008 03:36PM

partholon wrote:

edit -psi.

[edit - psi]

Some other Gems in the preceding pages read like a whats what of post what you want to believe rather than what is factual or accurate ; including

mike65 wrote:

Old loyalties? Pressure that we know nothing of? A word in her ear? In FF you don't make enemies.

Mr.micro wrote:

Radio presenters IMO are part of the establishment and will not go in the main against the status quo or risk offending the likes of the FF grandees. If one looks back at the Ahern/Dobson interview in 2006 it was almost reverential, done in soft focus. I think RTE has in recent times been sympathetic to FF. Its like being polite to FF big noises as one of them may be the next Taoiseach and my career and all that.

and the piéce de resistance of conspiracy theories..

partholon wrote:

word on politics.ie is that ms carruth is noel aherns niece.

ive NO proof of this but its whats being maintained there. still no word on whether berts brother in law is STILL the head of the revenue appeals comissioner or not.

As I said...since I last read this thread,we've the same players posting the same un backed up anti bertie posts for no other reason than being anti bertie to start out with.
Honestly lads it's like being in a republican or loyalist forum,like them you are preaching among your converted selves.
the only thing is,it's belittled when ye go on with the conspiracy nonsense.

What ye need is proof that monies are from a corrupt source in relation to Ahern.
Ye have shown none of that in the last 15 pages other than examples of the tribunals frustrations with Aherns inability to do what he had never expected to do ie account for what he considered his personal monies.

As for bemoaning the fact that he had a lot of money compared to some of ye back in '94 (some of ye probably were children like myself then) ; since when is having a lot of money against the law? May I remind ye that no law has been shown to be broken yet in the case of Ahern.
While I'm at it,I love the kangeroo court that the "on aherns case people" are wallowing in both through this thread and through out sections of the media.

The fact of the matter is,that when this tribunal reports,allegations peddled here will either stand or they won't.
If they don't then those peddling the hate will be shown for what they have been doing.

Danceswithchimps wrote:

All this money floating around and yet poor old Bertie needs dig-outs because he's fallen on hard times.

Notwithstanding the fact that these are unanswered questions in an unfinished(by a long shot) process ; would you like your peers to investigate you and declare your guilt prior to the ending of a trial process?
I doubt it.
But hey don't let me stop you venting whatever it is thats chipping away at your shoulder.If this thread helps you and others with such tribulations,I'm all for that.
I shan't be taking the speculation too seriously untill the process is over though and I certainly won't be subscribing to the wild conspiracy theories.

murphaph · 24-03-2008 05:01PM

Rock Climber wrote: »

What ye need is proof that monies are from a corrupt source in relation to Ahern.

No we don't. In the UK you and I both know the PM would have been forced by his party by this stage to resign. FF have such brass necks that they think they can ride this one out. The leader of our country should be squeaky clean and beyond reproach. Even a whiff of dodginess is enough to warrant his resignation, or at least would be across the water. Why should we accept any less in our standards in public life?

IT IS EMBARRASING FOR OUR COUNTRY THAT THIS GOMBEEN MAN WON'T STEP DOWN. Peter Hain was MADE to step down for less.

Rock Climber wrote: »

But hey don't let me stop you venting whatever it is thats chipping away at your shoulder.If this thread helps you and others with such tribulations,I'm all for that.

See above. If you are happy that he is making our country look amateur and unprofessional, then fine. I am not and I want him to resign. I want people to remember the FF TDs who sat on their hands come net election and remove them from office.

Rock Climber wrote: »

I shan't be taking the speculation too seriously untill the process is over though and I certainly won't be subscribing to the wild conspiracy theories.

and if the tribunal finds against Ahern? Will you then call for his resignation?

Honestly. This man is supposed to be qualified in accountancy (of some description, though nobody seems to know exactly what) yet you happily accept that he kept such bad records of his own finances that he can't answer questions about them, and you believe this man should be in charge of our entire economy? sheesh. :rolleyes:

GuanYin · 24-03-2008 05:05PM

murphaph wrote: »

IT IS EMBARRASING FOR OUR COUNTRY THAT THIS GOMBEEN MAN WON'T STEP DOWN.

Lets keep it civil and intelligent please.

In fact, lets all go back and read the thread rules?

Rock Climber · 24-03-2008 05:13PM

murphaph wrote: »

No we don't. In the UK you and I both know the PM would have been forced by his party by this stage to resign. FF have such brass necks that they think they can ride this one out. The leader of our country should be squeaky clean and beyond reproach. Even a whiff of dodginess is enough to warrant his resignation, or at least would be across the water. Why should we accept any less in our standards in public life?

IT IS EMBARRASING FOR OUR COUNTRY THAT THIS GOMBEEN MAN WON'T STEP DOWN. Peter Hain was MADE to step down for less.

With all due respect,we are an independent country , we do things differently here.

See above. If you are happy that he is making our country look amateur and unprofessional, then fine. I am not and I want him to resign. I want people to remember the FF TDs who sat on their hands come net election and remove them from office.

You'd have said the same thing at the last election probably.
I respect your view but accept other peoples would you?
You don't always get what you want in a democracy because well..people weigh things up in ways that suit themselves.They are not uniform.

and if the tribunal finds against Ahern? Will you then call for his resignation?

Of course,if he has not gone by then.
But really your question betrays your mind made up attitude.

It's not a prerequisite for office in this country that you should keep your personal financial affairs in an order that you know what is what.
It is a prerequisite(now) that you register your interests and declare your donations.
How that equates to a situation where a man has been exposed as having his financial affairs recorded in such a way as to make it difficult to know what is what,I don't know.
Is it now a criminal offence to have had a blazé attitude to keeping personal records when starting at the preface of not needing to account for them?

Honestly. This man is supposed to be qualified in accountancy (of some description, though nobody seems to know exactly what) yet you happily accept that he kept such bad records of his own finances that he can't answer questions about them, and you believe this man should be in charge of our entire economy? sheesh. :rolleyes:

Why did he have to record the wheres and whyfores of his own finances? He wasn't employed by anybody to do that and at the time it didn't matter.

Honestly this is yet another Bertie rant.

mike65 · 24-03-2008 05:55PM

Rock Climber wrote: »

With all due respect,we are an independent country , we do things differently here.

So true.

Mike.

is_that_so · 24-03-2008 06:11PM

Rock Climber wrote: »

With all due respect,we are an independent country , we do things differently here.
You'd have said the same thing at the last election probably.
I respect your view but accept other peoples would you?
You don't always get what you want in a democracy because well..people weigh things up in ways that suit themselves.They are not uniform.
Of course,if he has not gone by then.
But really your question betrays your mind made up attitude.

It's not a prerequisite for office in this country that you should keep your personal financial affairs in an order that you know what is what.
It is a prerequisite(now) that you register your interests and declare your donations.
How that equates to a situation where a man has been exposed as having his financial affairs recorded in such a way as to make it difficult to know what is what,I don't know.
Is it now a criminal offence to have had a blazé attitude to keeping personal records when starting at the preface of not needing to account for them?

Why did he have to record the wheres and whyfores of his own finances? He wasn't employed by anybody to do that and at the time it didn't matter.

Honestly this is yet another Bertie rant.

For now I see no criminality in what he has done but I do have serious questions over fitness for office. While Mahon may exonerate him, sometime in the distant future, I believe that there are enough doubts about his judgement and attitude to the tribunal never mind the apparent shambles of his finances to challenge what he did and didn't do. As an individual yes he has his rights to privacy but as a public representative we need higher standards.

The rants as you call them , some rightly so, imo have come about as a result of his own inability to deliver meaningful and credible explanations as to what was going on with his finances. It is not just the "mejia witch hunt". Mahon itself is at a loss to clarify some of the issues.

His separation difficulties, his mother, even his "granny" merely serve as distractions. At the very least there is something embarrassing ,to my mind, in the Minister for Finance not knowing what was going on with his own finances. Surely he could be expected to know whether he had zero, 1, 10 or 23 bank accounts.

If he really was as distracted as he has claimed he should have stood aside and resolved his private life.

murphaph · 24-03-2008 06:12PM

Rock Climber wrote: »

But really your question betrays your mind made up attitude.

I make no apologies for having convicted this man in my own mind. He's hiding something or at the very least has acted in an unco-operative way. That's enough for me. He should resign.

Interesting that you think it's ok that we should accept lower standards in public life than our nearest neighbours.

partholon · 24-03-2008 06:24PM

murphaph wrote: »

I make no apologies for having convicted this man in my own mind. He's hiding something or at the very least has acted in an unco-operative way. That's enough for me. He should resign.

Interesting that you think it's ok that we should accept lower standards in public life than our nearest neighbours.

feck the UK . callely went over a paint job! by FFs own standards he should go.

murphaph · 24-03-2008 06:34PM

partholon wrote: »

feck the UK . callely went over a paint job! by FFs own standards he should go.

FF have standards?

You're right of course. Ivor the engine went for very little in comparison to what de Bert is going though now. One rule for a junior member and another for the "man of the people" Ahern.

tech77 · 24-03-2008 07:16PM

Rock Climber wrote: »

With all due respect,we are an independent country , we do things differently here.

Aw, thanks for that. That gave me a good laugh.

Rock Climber · 24-03-2008 08:46PM

partholon wrote: »

tax evasions a crime. so's fraud. you know when you funnel massive amounts of money through your birds account? BOTH are admited to under oath in the tribunal

Lol,theres a lot of poetic licence in that rant but then what else is new in this thread.
For a start.He's not being investigated for tax evasion as far as I'm aware.
He's certainly not guilty of it untill we see for certain that the Revenue commissioners do not give him a clearance cert.
Ergo you are posting an opinionated folly.

Edit - Psi

Rubbish.

nice try rock climber but berts fcuked, and its NOT the tribunal he should be worried about

Well he's certainly unlikely to get your vote anyhow which would probably be a fairer assessment of things.

murphaph wrote: »

I make no apologies for having convicted this man in my own mind. He's hiding something or at the very least has acted in an unco-operative way. That's enough for me. He should resign.

Lol show me what he's hiding and then I might see your point.You can't because it's all speculation.

Interesting that you think it's ok that we should accept lower standards in public life than our nearest neighbours.

In fairness now,a messy financial life is not a crime,even for a politician.
Secondly if the original accusation against Ahern was treated in the same way as the UK treats accusations,the police would have been involved and the public wouldnt know about the details.
For example Blair was interviewed twice over the cah for honours issue iirc.

is_that_so wrote: »

For now I see no criminality in what he has done but I do have serious questions over fitness for office. While Mahon may exonerate him, sometime in the distant future, I believe that there are enough doubts about his judgement and attitude to the tribunal never mind the apparent shambles of his finances to challenge what he did and didn't do. As an individual yes he has his rights to privacy but as a public representative we need higher standards.

The rants as you call them , some rightly so, imo have come about as a result of his own inability to deliver meaningful and credible explanations as to what was going on with his finances. It is not just the "mejia witch hunt". Mahon itself is at a loss to clarify some of the issues.

His separation difficulties, his mother, even his "granny" merely serve as distractions. At the very least there is something embarrassing ,to my mind, in the Minister for Finance not knowing what was going on with his own finances. Surely he could be expected to know whether he had zero, 1, 10 or 23 bank accounts.

If he really was as distracted as he has claimed he should have stood aside and resolved his private life.

Whilst I go along with a lot of what you say there,I'd have to draw the line at convicting a man simply because he didn't order his personal financial affairs such that they could be easily investigated later.
There was no onus on him to do so and if we use the innocent untill proven guilty principle here as many posters are so hypocritically fast to abandon when they don't like someone,then we'd have to give him the fact that he didn't see the need as he knew himself he wasn't doing anything corrupt.

GuanYin · 24-03-2008 08:51PM

From this point on, having sought external advice. Any suggestions of CAB are off limits until such an event actually occurs.

murphaph · 24-03-2008 08:57PM

Rock Climber wrote: »

In fairness now,a messy financial life is not a crime,even for a politician.

but it doesn't inspire confidence in a minister of finance, does it Rock Climber?

Rock Climber · 24-03-2008 09:00PM

murphaph wrote: »

but it doesn't inspire confidence in a minister of finance, does it Rock Climber?

Is that a crime too?

Routledge · 24-03-2008 09:03PM

DancesWithChimp wrote: »

Noel Ahern is making out that £15,000stg is no big deal!

Wow, the arrogance of these people and the contempt they have for our intelligence knows no bounds.

This is HUGE money back in 94.
Its larger than the average industrial yearly wage!

Nice spin too from FF too considering we are not talking about just 15,000.

We are talking about unaccounted for lodgements of over £70,000stg...and that's just the sterling!
Forget the unaccounted for £100,000 odd punts or the unaccounted for $45,000.

All this money floating around and yet poor old Bertie needs dig-outs because he's fallen on hard times.

It's all just a simple misunderstanding, I'm sure.

Im so annoyed over this.

I despair that people havent taken to the streets over this or at least made their feelings known down at Dublin Castle whenever Bert appears.

We deserve so, so much more than this. We stand for more, so much than this.

Rock Climber · 24-03-2008 09:09PM

All this money floating around and yet poor old Bertie needs dig-outs because he's fallen on hard times.

Well again to be fair and I am aware that you are using hyperbole there but it's not really Berties fault that his cry for help may have been oversubscribed.
The hyperbole might be more justified if the tribunal dug up stuff from today rather than 14 years ago to show he was still requesting dig outs

Routledge · 24-03-2008 09:11PM

Rock Climber wrote: »

Well again to be fair and I am aware that you are using hyperbole there but it's not really Berties fault that his cry for help may have been oversubscribed.
The hyperbole might be more justified if the tribunal dug up stuff from today rather than 14 years ago to show he was still requesting dig outs

Whow

gandalf · 24-03-2008 09:22PM

It is beyond me how FF have let this go on for so long. Are they so devoid of leadership talent that they have to let this tainted man continue to lead them and to disgrace the office of taoiseach just like one of their leaders did previously.

One or two transgression's are fine but this is now a whole series, with the first ones explained away with the performance on RTE1 complete with crocodile tears, hiding behind his family problems. Quite pathetic and disgusting.

Akrasia · 25-03-2008 12:00PM

Rock Climber wrote: »

Well again to be fair and I am aware that you are using hyperbole there but it's not really Berties fault that his cry for help may have been oversubscribed.
The hyperbole might be more justified if the tribunal dug up stuff from today rather than 14 years ago to show he was still requesting dig outs

Oh come off it. Ahern claimed he was destitute, living in a bedsit over his office until his 'best friends' (some of whom claim they were never friends) came and rescued him with a little dig out that he considered a 'debt of honour'

All the while, he had 'savings' floating around the place of several times the average industrial wage, he had access to FF funds that were enough to buy a house for his girlfriend.

if your friends offer you a rescue loan that you don't need, you don't accept it. it's as simple as that. If you're offered a loan that you do need, then you repay it as soon as you get back on your feet. Ahern never needed a loan, and when given the 'digout, never paid back a single cent until more than a decade later despite him being amongst the best paid heads of state in Europe for the last 10 years.

Nothing that he has said is credible, and every time he opens his mouth he just drifts farther and farther away from the threshold of believability.

The facts are established. Ahern was dealing in large sums of cash, much of it in foreign currencies, at the same time as he was alleged to have received corrupt payments

The patronising 'Lols' from you rock climber as you laugh at your perceived gaps in other people's arguments while you're defending ahern using the WMD defence* are very galling.
(*you can't prove absolutely that Saddam didn't have WMD, therefore you're an idiot to make that claim and the war was justified)

You mightn't think a case is proven, but to any right thinking person, the evidence is overwhelming that Ahern has been doing things he should not have been doing.

Seth Brundle · 25-03-2008 12:17PM

Rock Climber wrote: »

Well again to be fair and I am aware that you are using hyperbole there but it's not really Berties fault that his cry for help may have been oversubscribed.
The hyperbole might be more justified if the tribunal dug up stuff from today rather than 14 years ago to show he was still requesting dig outs

He allegedly did not make a cry for help. His version of events was that people took pity on him and handed over wads of cash as long term interest free loans. IIRC the only money paid to him by cheque was by the former head of EBS who didn't really know him!
Also IIRC no trace of the funds given to him by his mates has been found nor were the refunds cashed!

juuge · 25-03-2008 01:02PM

Routledge wrote: »

Im so annoyed over this.

I despair that people havent taken to the streets over this or at least made their feelings known down at Dublin Castle whenever Bert appears.

We deserve so, so much more than this. We stand for more, so much than this.

Why RTE chose to quote Bertie's brother is amazing. What else would a guy say about his own brother?
The overwhelming evidence of shady dealings and deceit that now exists in the public domain is a national shame, and yet no one in government has the balls to say so. Shame on them all and I'm sure their families are really proud of them. It's essential that we all remember these gutless creeps at the next election.

ballooba · 25-03-2008 01:30PM

juuge wrote: »

Why RTE chose to quote Bertie's brother is amazing. What else would a guy say about his own brother?

Because there's no one else left to quote. Except maybe Noel O'Flynn. Nobody believes his fairytales anymore.

The Mahon Tribunal-discussion (please read this threads first post before replying)

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