Irish Open Discussion - originally: "Irish Poker Championship Starts on TV Tonight"

nickdundee · 12-02-2008 04:06PM

PPP-Pit Boss wrote: »

Everyone here. This of course does not include the 100K+ viewers and the broadcasters of the event.

When the sponsors of an event state the above it shows without doubt that the players are classed as unimportant in the whole scheme of things.

Should this be the case? I have a few questions which I'll also answer that might clarify where the players rights and views should be placed. If i'm wrong i don't mind being corrected.

1) Can Paddy Power have an Irish Open Poker Tournament without players? No.
2) Can RTE show a poker Tournament without players? No.
3) Can players have a €4200+€300 reg Tournament without either a sponsor or TV coverage? Yes

I played in the well run and great structured main event in Drogehda last week. This had no sponsor or TV.
Some might say GJP were the sponsor the same as PP are in the IO but i don't agree. They organized it but in most online reports i've seen the event was branded as the European Deepstack Tournament with no mention of GJP.

The organizers GJP used the reg fee to run the event and the rest for the prize pool. The same will happen in the IO but what exactly do the players get from the sponsors PP? At least the players at the final table might get a sponsorship deal of some sort form the TV coverage but either I'm missing something or PP don't bring much to the party.

In horse racing for instance the owners pay an entry fee to enter there horse in a race. The total of the entry fees might only make up about half of the prize pool. The rest is made up by the sponsors, the racecourse and levy contributions. All of these people gain from the races taking place so they pay for the privilege and it is the owner who gains form the added money.

What exactly do the players in the IO gain from PP involvement? Free tea and coffee? It's OK i can bring my flask.

eoghan104 · 12-02-2008 04:07PM

rag2gar wrote: »

Why don't they just do the table draw random and then just make the most interesting table, the TV table

Thats what the WSOP do and that IMO is the correct way to do it. PPP doesnt see how this is different tho.

strewelpeter · 12-02-2008 04:12PM

rag2gar wrote: »

Why don't they just do the table draw random and then just make the most interesting table, the TV table

.

And it would more than likely be easier for them to organise and manage their branding.
The assumption that in order to get value from their TV coverage they are going to need to have rigged tables with three or four big name pros and a bit of eye candy is moronic.

nicnicnic · 12-02-2008 04:34PM

the feature table at the ipc and io were 8 handed while the reat of the tournament were 10 to begin and then 9, this is a bigger factor imo then who plays on it

LuckyLloyd · 12-02-2008 04:46PM

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mewso · 12-02-2008 04:50PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Kind of pisses me off, because we're not all donating for the fun of it.

They can think what they like as long as they don't see me as a threat. (mind I'm probably not one anyway).

nicnicnic · 12-02-2008 04:52PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

DING DING DING. Another thing ESPN get right.

As an aside, was anybody slightly irritated with the way in which Irish poker was presented at the weekend? Interviews with Mike Sexton in which he basically passed us all off as dead money lunatics.

If someone without a clue watched the event they would get the impression that there was no - one in Ireland that could play a lick and the savy foreigners have a nice time coming over here to take our foolish money (Nicky being hyped as a "dangerous player with good form" and then doing his dough with the bottom two vs set to Sexton within two minutes hardly helped ). The PPP ad campaigns do a similair job of stereotyping us as happy, stupid losers.

Kind of pisses me off, because we're not all donating for the fun of it.

yeah i agree I really didn't like sextons comments and I'm gonna own the fcuker the next time we cross paths. As for my quick exit sure I was playing FTW

carrigeen · 12-02-2008 05:03PM

Yeah I agree with you on Sextons comments was really surprised by them I think he was trying to be funny and came across as really patronising. (that siad wait til you see the hand that knocks him out I believe its unreal), Overall though he seemed a very nice guy and was great crack in the bar.

As for the production company I dont think we can blame them for Sextons views

Overall though lets be happy we can get 6 weeks coverage on rte which I believe will be followed by coverage of the IO can only be good for the game and I say fair fecks to the production companys who put them on.

As for the poker companies running them, Fintan is a buddy of mine but I know for a fact he or pokerevents gets nothing from the tv production except the hope that next years event is even bigger from the advertising that a large tourny can be held outside Dublin. As for Paddy Power yes they get big brand recognition etc but I say fair fecks to them they had the balls to g'tee €3m and deserve the advertising they will get imho

dannydiamond · 12-02-2008 05:07PM

PPP-Pit Boss wrote: »

If you are playing at the €3,000,000 Guaranteed Irish Open this year, While you are enjoying your free unlimited supply of teas coffees, merchandise, entertainment, meals etc you could conclude that this is another form of added money for the players or you could not.

In this case I feel we would have to agree to differ. Lets not fall out about it.

Is there no reg fee this year then?

AdMMM · 12-02-2008 05:41PM

dannydiamond wrote: »

Is there no reg fee this year then?

There is, but they've hired the most expensive administration/registration staff available (I actually believe they had to pry them away from some publically floated German accountancy firm). Therefore 100% of the registration fee will be going towards making sure all the paperwork is in order and you can rest assured that you'll be able to play without the worry of the potential consequences of spelling your name incorrectly or smudging the forms if you're left handed. I've also heard suggestions of everyone getting their own name badge (possibly gold-plated) so they can get to know each other on the tables whilst drinking pint after pint of Guinness - after all, that's what us Irish do!

I hope that clears up any reservations you have regarding the registration fee

dannydiamond · 12-02-2008 05:47PM

Dammit i was planning on drinking 299.75s' worth of coffee and gettin a new mousemat

hotspur · 12-02-2008 06:33PM

I'm ambivalent about the rigging TV tables thing. It's obviously negative for the players involved in the featured tables (which are few), positive for the viewers on TV (I will turn off a table of local randomers), and positive for the sponsor with greater media coverage and interest in the TV broadcast.

If I were PaddyPower I would rig the tables, it makes good marketing sense. This is a plc and the Irish Open is a marketing tool for them, their fundamental goal is not to please the players, if they can and it is congruent with their marketing goal then great, if not then the marketing goal has primacy.

We have to accept that on some matters the players and sponsor / organiser have different goals. Then it becomes a matter of power. Players playing in the IO have no power. In the WSOP the pro players have formed a committee to negotiate the rules to redress the lack of player power.

Only in particularly egregious ethical violations would PP feel compelled to succumb to the players protestations because it might be bad publicity and affect future participation, but this issue ain't big or bad enough. Nikki pwns you. That's the nature of power. So good Paddy took it as his name.

OT but for some reason this reminds me of a fantastic article by the neo-con Robert Kagan a few years ago about power, if you wanna understand the American neo-con view of global political power and consequent policy:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/kagan-20020520.htm

LuckyLloyd · 12-02-2008 06:49PM

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carrigeen · 12-02-2008 06:56PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Sensible post Hotspur. Meh, I shall be voting with my feet.

Lloyd

you seriously wont be playing the IO because there might be a few names at the tv table? Seriously with your recent results I would suggest maybe not being so principled and get in and play Id have no doubt you could sell a % here if you didnt want to cough up the entry fee

5starpool · 12-02-2008 07:18PM

Hawk Eye wrote: »

It not a coincidence that Nicky Power was next in, yer man Donal (scum IMO) just had a look quick glance round a few tables and picked out Nicky cause he's known around the circuit.

I have only seen this now. Banned for a few days. Please try to be more constructive in future when you post.

thechamp87 · 12-02-2008 07:22PM

5starpool wrote: »

I have only seen this now. Banned for a few days. Please try to be more constructive in future when you post.

in fairness he retracted his statement almost immediately...

5starpool · 12-02-2008 07:34PM

Well I'll withdraw the ban soon then, tomorrow or some such time.

/mod hat off

As for the rest of this thread, there is the same stuff being posted as regards tv tables that we all know. Sponsors, organisers etc, don't care what we think, and mostly we don't like it.

Personally I think TV poker is rubbish anyhow on several levels, especially the 15 hands in an hour coverage that we see in these 'highlights' shows, so apart from tempting the occasional players into playing slightly more, it is not going to affect the poker scene around ireland in any tangible beneficial way imo.

The fact that you might have a clean, white or any colour even, polo shirt on and not be allowed to be on the feature table at the IO because of it stinks I think. If I am playing this year (unlkely it looks) I won't mind that this might rule me out, as it is a disadvantage playing there with less players and slower hands etc. However, when the FT comes and players are told what to wear that is ridiculous. If Andy Black was told to put on a PPP generic shirt instead of his old faded Eminem tshirt I would be amazed, but because someone else is an unknown it is a different rule, the same a the whole cap thing last year although Dan Harrington was of course exempt.

dannydiamond · 12-02-2008 08:00PM

I'd love to see someone try and take Doyles hat.
Odds on him to be on the tv table,100000-1 on?

Ste05 · 12-02-2008 08:23PM

PPP-Pit Boss wrote: »

Everyone here. This of course does not include the 100K+ viewers and the broadcasters of the event.

This is such a terrible statement for so many reasons as outlined above. It appears the IO and IPC have Zero integrity.

Not even ESPN or the WSOP (which I thought was about as commercialised and TV based as was possible) go this far for TV, so as to damage the integrity of the entire tournament.

I hope you understood Lloyd's explanation for why the hand picking players is bad and not only unfair but completely ruins the randomness of the tournament, and puts certain players at a disadvantage and it means these events are not working on a completely level playing field for all players.

PPP make millions on the back off this tournament and on the backs and money of the players who play in it.

If you want to start comparing yourself with Golf or other similar sports (even though those analogies are completely wrong) maybe you should start paying the players the same way those Golfers are paid.

At the PGA, do you think Tiger Woods and all the players puts up the Prize Pool from their own pockets and then let all the Television companies and sponsors make millions off their back??

hotspur wrote: »

Only in particularly egregious ethical violations would PP feel compelled to succumb to the players protestations because it might be bad publicity and affect future participation, but this issue ain't big or bad enough. Nikki pwns you. That's the nature of power. So good Paddy took it as his name.

This sums it up nicely, but the attitude shown here is absolutely disgraceful IMO. Do you realise you are effectively spitting in the face of the people who make you all the money you make from this tournament. (And pay a bloody reg. fee so you don't even have to stump up the price of a cup of Coffee or the meals the players eat.

If you add €1m to the prize pool or put up the Prize Pool and invite the named players you want and run cheap qualifiers and freeroll tournaments for the plebs, then you can do whatever the fcuk you want with the players and structure.

But as Hotspur says unless you could get negative publicity from the situation nothing will happen because to your 100k+ viewers they won't understand what you are doing. But the players who make you all this money do, and if they weren't mostly degenerate gamblers they wouldn't put up with it.

BTW all your terms and conditions can be easily met without hand picking players. I see one of them you say is only 3 shirts from the one sponsor can be at the table. So if Full Tilt have 5 players, ask a representative of them which 3 players they want to advertise for them and then give the other 2, a plain black shirt or if they have it, they can wear their own clothes. This would take about 30 seconds and wouldn't delay anything.

TL;DR - another rant from me.... :rolleyes:

Ste05 · 12-02-2008 08:24PM

dannydiamond wrote: »

Odds on him NOT to be on the tv table at all times,100000-1 on?

A slightly more probable FYP.

LuckyLloyd · 12-02-2008 08:40PM

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phantom_lord · 12-02-2008 08:42PM

PPP-Pit Boss wrote: »

If you are playing at the €3,000,000 Guaranteed Irish Open this year, While you are enjoying your free unlimited supply of teas coffees, merchandise, entertainment, meals etc you could conclude that this is another form of added money for the players or you could not.

In this case I feel we would have to agree to differ. Lets not fall out about it.

In fairness if i'm playing the Irish Open I would have payed 300 in reg, plus possibly some exorbitant rake in the cash games. And you can hardly claim credit for the 3m prize pool.

edit: is the tea and coffee really going to be "free", I thought last year we had to pay 3x the normal price of everything?

Ollieboy · 12-02-2008 08:56PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Pat,

I don't play professionally; I don't derive the majority of my income from tournament poker; I'm not getting a sponsorship deal anytime soon; and there are plenty of better structured / better run / better value events going on in this country this year. As such, I don't have to play this event.

And if it's just a big branding event for a company that I have no business with - and they even admit that they aren't going to run it 100% above board - then **** it, I'm not playing.

value = dead money in event. As such this event as about 1/3 dead moeny in it, so its great value. If your view was correct, there would be no professional players at this event, but nearly every professional player in Europe will be there.

I agree in relation to structure and will say nothing about the running of the event, as I agree with most people's views on that subject, but poker is also a business, so I think people need to take that into realisation. If we dont advertise the game on telly, we dont get the much need to fish.

If any player is used on the TV table, they should get the reg fee back as fee at least.

So Lloyd, what I'm trying to say, is you should play.

phantom_lord · 12-02-2008 09:00PM

Ollieboy wrote: »

So Lloyd, what I'm trying to say, is you should play.

+1

DeVore · 12-02-2008 09:58PM

dinjo99 wrote: »

I agree of course that it should be random. However calling anyone scum should not be tolerated on a public forum.

Am I correct Mods?

Very much correct. If Hawkeye hadnt publically apologised by the time i read this, I would have banned him.

As it is I'm issuing a warning, and everyone should take note as Hawkeye just used everyone's one and only...

Donal and I have had our arguments, he may rub people the wrong way but I do respect his TD-ing ability and no one should be called such names in public.

Apologies but I was being operated on today so I was unconscious for most of the day and the theatre didnt have wifi either, tsk tsk....

DeV.

Ollieboy · 12-02-2008 10:03PM

DeVore wrote: »

Very much correct. If Hawkeye hadnt publically apologised by the time i read this, I would have banned him.

As it is I'm issuing a warning, and everyone should take note as Hawkeye just used everyone's one and only...

Donal and I have had our arguments, he may rub people the wrong way but I do respect his TD-ing ability and no one should be called such names in public.

Apologies but I was being operated on today so I was unconscious for most of the day and the theatre didnt have wifi either, tsk tsk....

DeV.

You let a operation stop you from been on the net, I dont believe it. You must be ill....lol

DeVore · 12-02-2008 10:30PM

only for a while Ollie...

I think everyone knows my opinion on the involvment of TV in poker tournaments reasonably well.

Rigging the TV table is so wrong it hurts. Its just wrong wrong wrong. Even ESPN don't do it in the WSOP, they pick the best table from those that the random seating throws up. And God knows they are the worlds greatest ****s.

I'd refuse to go to the TV table in the IO (if chosen to

) for two reasons.:

1. Its rigged and I don't see why I should have to sit on a table of well known (and consequently generally excellent) poker players.

2. The speed of hands is about 1/2 of that of a normal table. (at the PP 6 Nations, Dave Colclough nearly went bananas when he was short stacked and the TV table got 17 hands in one hour.)

Its stunning that a company like PPP would openly admit that they rig this to benefit themselves and their TV promotional program.

If you are asked to move, simply politely refuse.

Finally the rule about not allowing poloshirts is nuts. The vast majority of poker shirts are poloshirts. PPP are going to give out alternatives..... will they be PPP branded?

DeV.

Fatboydim · 12-02-2008 11:06PM

Get well soon Tom.

On the whole I agree with most posters here. I'm no longer associated with PPP but I still think that we have to be realistic about what the IO means to PPP.

PPP is a business as such it needs to advertise. The IO is part of this, and fair play to them but they have really upped the profile of the Irish Open. Even though PPP cannot recruit players from the Americas a simple fact of the poker economy is that most of the top notch players are from that continent. As a result any time players like Dan Harrington or Doyle Brunson bother to leave American soil to play a tournament it is worthy of note. So how do you get these players over? Well guarantee a prizepool and TV coverage. But a 100 thousand viewers on RTE is neither here nor there. What counts is international sales. You won't sell the IO to many countries if the tables aren't interesting. The IPC even less. So the practice of creative randomization is understandable if morally unacceptable. But there is a trade off.

As for how it affects most of the players here... Surely it gives you an edge. Because unless you are drawn on a CRT [Creatively Randomized Table] you are seeing good players on the CRT at a disadvantage. I'm happy to not be on the TV table and happy that Andy Black might knock out Dan Harrington - or whatever.

Also as many of the posters on here do not play on PPP you're not exactly the people they are trying to keep happy.

And if you are going to play the IO at least you know what the score is.

Regarding the WSOP the main reason they can operate with a little more leeway is because of the size of their viewing audience. IE: Americans are going to be happy watching fellow Americans playing.

So to sum up I think the trade off is this... allow the TV people some leeway so that PPP can grow the IO into the premier tournament outside of the WSOP. Or play it 100% fair and see the IO become a parochial affair that o one outside of Dublin and Cork cares about?

I suspect there is a middle way.

Ste05 · 12-02-2008 11:16PM

Here's a good question that would be very interesting to know the answer to, but for obvious reasons we'll never know for definite. But do you think Doyle Brunson is coming over to play and pay into the IO because he thinks it's a fun tournament?

**puts on conspiracy theory hat **

No he wouldn't. Why would he bother? I would think he is either getting paid into the tournament or has worked out some sort of image rights deal and the likes. Why would a man of his age come over to play in this tournament just to help PPP build their profile in the US and increase the profile of the IO??

**removes conspiracy theory hat**

BIG-SLICK-POKER · 12-02-2008 11:22PM

PPP-Pit Boss wrote: »

12. Players must be appropriately dressed at all times within the main arena and will not be permitted to play if dressed in a manner deemed distracting to other players. The tournament director & Paddy Power Poker reserve the right to refuse participation of any players that does not abide by this rule.

There is one I didnt list before, we were approached by a thrd party asking us permission to enter a certain player dressed in nothing other than body paint.. No doubt some would love it but It COULD be a little off-putting.

And as for skanky etc, say you had a T-shirt with something particularly derogatory on it. We have two choices, give you one of our sleek black numbers which we keep in reserve for the feature table, or not put you on the feature table.

1. Is Elvis allowed in then ?

2. Bet u wont make Andy Black change him mank Eminen TShrt ?

3. I disagree with any Aid being made to any table in a Buy in of this amount , Dont think PP should state it wheter they do it or not , In my opinion i would have said its just random and left it at that.

Irish Open Discussion - originally: "Irish Poker Championship Starts on TV Tonight"

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