Irish Open Discussion - originally: "Irish Poker Championship Starts on TV Tonight"

Samson · 11-02-2008 06:28PM

It appears so.

hotspur · 11-02-2008 06:35PM

|.Murderer.| wrote: »

Going back to the coverage of the IPC, I like Jesse as a commentator, but Fintan got on my nipples!

Agreed. Nothing personal against Fintan, but if you are going to spend all that money on a TV production then why devalue the viewing experience by grabbing in commentators who aren't going to do a good job. It seems like a tough gig, I imagine nerves are pretty bad for non-experienced TV commentators.

Make a note of that for the IO, no more random culchies who are just hanging around

To compliment Jesse they ought to be either very funny to keep it amusing (like Parkinson) or about 7 times as intelligent and articulate as him to keep it outta the muck. "Poker is like fishing...I caught a fish this big" does not qualify as funny, intelligent, or articulate

Goodluck2me · 11-02-2008 06:54PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Yo Samson, don't you realize that the IO is a tournament where the tds decision is FINAL?

FYP

I think it makes for a really good arguement, I think its ridiculous that you can put all the named pro`s together, yes it makes for good viewing but it makes for an unproffessional manner to run a tournament, if you sacrifce honesty and fairness for publicity then it will soon be found out and you may find yourself in a position where you have all the cameras and noone to film.

As for donal, im sure he is a nice guy with the charity work, but i certainly wouldnt work for him again, great to the players, horrible to staff, noone can be busy enough to warrant downright ignorance. Liam Flood im sure was every bit as busy as he was during the IO but was always a bit fo craic and approachable from my experience, but at the same time i wouldnt say donal was scum anyway, thats not fair either.

nickdundee · 11-02-2008 07:19PM

I got moved onto the TV table for about 6 hours on the Sat and i was on the BB at the time Donal came to the table. I was under the impression that the players were allocated to each table randomly as per normal but that they could then pick a table with a few names on it for the TV table. It's possible the TD might sometimes have looked around the room to see is there a name player on the BB at any table which would explain a higher than average amount of empty spaces being filled by a name player.

A different TV table was selected after about 6 hours although when the bubble broke myself and Keith McFadden were moved back to the TV table including Ciaran O'Leary. At the time i thought it was a bit of a coincidence that the TD picked the massive chip leader in Keith and myself(i think i was probably 3rd in chips at the table)to go back to the TV table.

Over the course of the 6 shows it should become clearer if the number of no names like myself moved to fill an empty seat at the TV table was overly low compared to name players moved.

PPP-Pit Boss · 12-02-2008 10:47AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

No - but the other players at the table with him have been drawn randomly. Don't you gettit?

Yes I beleive I do, its a bit like getting the ace of spades every hand with a different kicker. Kind of random but not really..

strewelpeter · 12-02-2008 11:10AM

PPP-Pit Boss wrote: »

5. Players general appearance and sponsors shirts must be neat and clean. These shirts must have sleeves and collars (polo shirts and t–shirts will not be permitted) and must not be white. Sponsors must be aware that their players will not be allowed play on the feature table in unsuitable clothing. Tournament Organiser’s decision will be final. Substitute shirts will be provided if available.

So if I wear a skanky looking (but clean) t-shirt I can avoid being put on the TV table or is that just sponsors clothes?
If we are going to have a dress code why can't go that extra bit and have a personal hygiene inspector - that would be a good thing.

PPP-Pit Boss · 12-02-2008 11:38AM

12. Players must be appropriately dressed at all times within the main arena and will not be permitted to play if dressed in a manner deemed distracting to other players. The tournament director & Paddy Power Poker reserve the right to refuse participation of any players that does not abide by this rule.

There is one I didnt list before, we were approached by a thrd party asking us permission to enter a certain player dressed in nothing other than body paint.. No doubt some would love it but It COULD be a little off-putting.

And as for skanky etc, say you had a T-shirt with something particularly derogatory on it. We have two choices, give you one of our sleek black numbers which we keep in reserve for the feature table, or not put you on the feature table.

Not sure how to answer the personal hygiene comment. How about "not allowed to pick nose, scratch arse or make lewd flirty gestures toward Mr Flood?"

Glowingmind · 12-02-2008 11:42AM

PPP-Pit Boss wrote: »

Not sure how to answer the personal hygiene comment. How about "not allowed to pick nose, scratch arse or make lewd flirty gestures toward Mr Flood?"

So, you're not going to the Open this year Nikki?

PPP-Pit Boss · 12-02-2008 11:44AM

Well I am but I have to adhere to the rules to so it will be a fairly stilted affair for me.

Oooh just because I cant turn around and throw a stapler at you......

LuckyLloyd · 12-02-2008 11:54AM

This post has been deleted.

PPP-Pit Boss · 12-02-2008 12:19PM

I understand your opinion Llyod just not the ferocity of ithe delivery and I do not agree with it in principal.

No I am not a stupid person.
The WSOP feature table is not randomly drawn, unless my information is flawed.
Choosing a "random" table is not a true representation of randomly picking players for a table.
What we do is to randomise the featured table as much as possible outside having to police clothing and keep the tournament running smoothly and to try to ensure that the TV is interesting by selecting well known or players with interesting personalities in ADDITION to the random selectees at the table.

If you are playing at the €3,000,000 Guaranteed Irish Open this year, While you are enjoying your free unlimited supply of teas coffees, merchandise, entertainment, meals etc you could conclude that this is another form of added money for the players or you could not.

In this case I feel we would have to agree to differ. Lets not fall out about it.

eoin-dubh · 12-02-2008 12:20PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm going to assume you're not a stupid person and know all of this, but I'll write out the following anyway.

The WSOP is 100% randomly drawn and the make up of every single table in the tournament is initially decided by virtue of random draw; and players get moved around as normal. This means that there is no special treatment of the feature table and players are not deliuberately moved there by the tournament director for the purposes of TV.

ESPN get the lists of the randomly drawn tables and choose the one they find most interesting for the cameras. However, when a player gets knocked out at the feature table - the replacement is random. As such, a table selected at the start of the days play as a feature table may not be considered TV worthy after a couple of hours of play due to the replacement of star player with random player. Fine. Switch that table with one you deem more interesting from elsewhere in the arena. So yes, ESPN choose which table to view. But they do not impinge upon the fairness and transparency of the tournament as a whole.

What the IPC and the IO did was meddle with the random luck of where players are dispersed following the break up of tables and deliberately pick people to move to a contrived tv table for the purposes of television. When you do that, you are damaging the integrity of your event and sending a clear message that the players come second. Which is bollox when they are the ones putting up the money.

If PPP or PE added money to these events or paid the reg or added extra value in some way then they could defend interference of this nature. But that is not the case and is why players have such a problem with non random player movement.

So, do you understand now?

A very interesting post in a very interesting thread.............transparency will help me see more clearly....

mewso · 12-02-2008 12:23PM

I don't understand the logic of this cherry picking tv tables at all. Consider the possible viewers.

1. Clueless - know nothing about poker, wouldn't know a Brunson from a Branson.

2. Mildly knowledgable - might know the odd poker name but will assume while watching that just because they don't know somebody it doesn't mean they are not a famous player.

3. Knowledgable - will know most poker names, will, like alot of posters here, not have any real priority in seeing Brenes wave a shark from out of his ass and more often appreciate seeing a mixture of good unknows/donks/names.

So by fixing tv tables we are catering for...? Something was said about building a fanbase. Presumably from categories 1/2. These are the guys that will either stick with poker and move onto category 3, stop watching or end up drooling maniacly at a CPT event every week. Pretty hard fanbase to build. I assume this show explains the rules at the start (missed it the other night). Another strange move. Lets show the viewers, who will know all the big poker names, how to play the game????

delanec8 · 12-02-2008 12:30PM

PPP-Pit Boss wrote: »

What we do is to randomise the featured table as much as possible outside having to police clothing and keep the tournament running smoothly and to try to ensure that the TV is interesting by selecting well known or players with interesting personalities in ADDITION to the random selectees at the table.

All of this screws up the outcome of the tournament, whereas the way it is done at the WSOP, afaik, doesnt.

Im sure ESPN would have loved to have a feature table full of known pros at the beginning of the main event. But, last year it was Jamie Gold and 9 randomers on one of the day 1s. Anytime hellmuth is on its usually with another load of randomers.

eoghan104 · 12-02-2008 12:34PM

PPP-Pit Boss wrote: »

I understand your opinion Llyod just not the ferocity of ithe delivery and I do not agree with it in principal.

If you are playing at the €3,000,000 Guaranteed Irish Open this year, While you are enjoying your free unlimited supply of teas coffees, merchandise, entertainment, meals etc you could conclude that this is another form of added money for the players or you could not.

I dont think you quite understand what Llyod is saying here PPP. The way Llyod described is totally different to how the IO feature table is picked. It does not effect who a player plays against in their time in the tournament and the IO does. That is changing the possibe outcome of the tourney and that is wrong. Its not hard to understand this.

As per your second paragraph, is there no reg fee at the IO? if there is surley all this "added money" is what the reg fee pays for?

Your not doing a fantastic job of defending the IO here really. Not being harsh its just the way you have come across.

Van Dice · 12-02-2008 12:56PM

PPP-Pit Boss wrote: »

If you are playing at the €3,000,000 Guaranteed Irish Open this year, While you are enjoying your free unlimited supply of teas coffees, merchandise, entertainment, meals etc you could conclude that this is another form of added money for the players or you could not.

what? the 300 reg fee should go a long way towards the cost of a few cups of tea IMO.

People are paying over 4k to enter a tournament. They are NOT paying for entertainment or merchandise, whatever they might be,

And when the TV table players are cherry-picked, it is extremely unfair and damaging to the credibility of the tournament. It means that the better players who end up playing against each other are at a big disadvantage compared to other good players who are left alone to play the other donks throughout the room.

That is just not fair, as the organisers are directly affecting the chances of each player, costing some players thousands of euro in EV. I cannot see how that can be defended.

Down to the last 8 in a World Cup, can you imagine FIFA saying 'screw the draw, can you imagine the tv ratings if we had Argentina v Brazil now, instead of Argentina v Togo and Brazil v Nepal'. Actually FIFA may be a bad example but you get the point

FIFA would be putting both South American countries at a big disadvantage and if there were a prize money structure, FIFA would be costing both countries lots of money in EV.

The players are not being paid to play, it's their own money that they're putting up. It's not an exhibition game, and therefore the players deserve a lot more respect and better treatment than selecting a good TV table

LuckyLloyd · 12-02-2008 01:19PM

This post has been deleted.

nickdundee · 12-02-2008 01:44PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The WSOP is 100% randomly drawn and the make up of every single table in the tournament is initially decided by virtue of random draw; and players get moved around as normal. This means that there is no special treatment of the feature table and players are not deliuberately moved there by the tournament director for the purposes of TV.

ESPN get the lists of the randomly drawn tables and choose the one they find most interesting for the cameras. However, when a player gets knocked out at the feature table - the replacement is random.

I think everyone would agree the above is the way all tournaments should be run. It seems the TV table at the IO and IPC aren't quite this random but does anyone know if the EPT and WPT also cherry pick players for the TV table or do they follow the WSOP example?

delanec8 · 12-02-2008 01:54PM

nickdundee wrote: »

I think everyone would agree the above is the way all tournaments should be run. It seems the TV table at the IO and IPC aren't quite this random but does anyone know if the EPT and WPT also cherry pick players for the TV table or do they follow the WSOP example?

Well the WPT only shows the final 6 and from watching some EPT shows i would be shocked if they did.

LuckyLloyd · 12-02-2008 01:57PM

This post has been deleted.

robinblinds · 12-02-2008 01:58PM

|.Murderer.| wrote: »

Going back to the coverage of the IPC, I like Jesse as a commentator, but Fintan got on my nipples! Also, for an event that had plenty of time for post-production, there wasn't enough hole cards being shown. There were several occassions where we were treated to a lovely split screen of the two players staring at one another but we didn't have a clue what the hole cards were!

Basically the problem was/is that the camera was too far away from the table. Not enough zoom and the angles were atrocious. You'd get one player and the camera would be swapping over and back and then a pan shot and then an overhead which from the roof! The split is a good idea and worked pretty well apart from, as you say, no cards.

But hey, thats what made Late Night Poker so good in 1999....hardly any cards.

However, back then all they (the cameras) had to concentrate on was the players. Nothing else.

PPP-Pit Boss · 12-02-2008 01:58PM

nickdundee wrote: »

I think everyone would agree the above is the way all tournaments should be run.

Everyone here. This of course does not include the 100K+ viewers and the broadcasters of the event.

LuckyLloyd · 12-02-2008 01:59PM

This post has been deleted.

robinblinds · 12-02-2008 02:01PM

hotspur wrote: »

Agreed. Nothing personal against Fintan, but if you are going to spend all that money on a TV production then why devalue the viewing experience by grabbing in commentators who aren't going to do a good job. It seems like a tough gig, I imagine nerves are pretty bad for non-experienced TV commentators.

Make a note of that for the IO, no more random culchies who are just hanging around To compliment Jesse they ought to be either very funny to keep it amusing (like Parkinson) or about 7 times as intelligent and articulate as him to keep it outta the muck. "Poker is like fishing...I caught a fish this big" does not qualify as funny, intelligent, or articulate

Name me 3 poker commentators that don't annoy you?

Tough job.

eoghan104 · 12-02-2008 02:03PM

PPP-Pit Boss wrote: »

Everyone here. This of course does not include the 100K+ viewers and the broadcasters of the event.

Still digging..........

Van Dice · 12-02-2008 02:06PM

PPP-Pit Boss wrote: »

Everyone here. This of course does not include the 100K+ viewers and the broadcasters of the event.

Have to say I'm very surprised a company is willing to both admit that they rig the table draw for their flagship tournament, and then deem it acceptable because of tv considerations.

eagle eye · 12-02-2008 02:08PM

The EPT do it as well, maybe not just to the same extent as it was done at the IPC.

But i agree with Lloyd here, and some others. It does affect the outcome of the tournament.
Its not really fair to really top class pro's either. You put them all on the one table and theres not a fish in sight, in the early stages, its lessens their chances of building a healthy stack.

Totally agree that if there was added money in the prizepool then by all means go ahead and pick your feature table.

Like Nicky Power at the IPC, he gets put on the feature table in the 'seat of death' as i nicknamed it shortly before his exit. I think he was the third player seated there and the other two had been knocked out before him.

But as i said to him after his exit, it was not fair, he was put on a table of world class players, and while he is still improving he is still only international class at best, so he had no hope.

rag2gar · 12-02-2008 03:03PM

Why don't they just do the table draw random and then just make the most interesting table, the TV table

cuterob · 12-02-2008 03:07PM

in the ept or wsop if they have a big name pro at the feature table and he has to be moved cause he's on the big blind or whatever then they move everyone on the table he's going to to the feature table to keep his face on it

delanec8 · 12-02-2008 03:22PM

cuterob wrote: »

in the ept or wsop if they have a big name pro at the feature table and he has to be moved cause he's on the big blind or whatever then they move everyone on the table he's going to to the feature table to keep his face on it

It still doesnt affect the outcome of the tournament

Irish Open Discussion - originally: "Irish Poker Championship Starts on TV Tonight"

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