Liverpool v Man Utd - Sunday 16th December

_blank_ · 17-12-2007 12:33PM

The_B_Man wrote: »

looks aside, he played a stormer.

The_B_Man wrote: »

after a slow start, hes really startin to settle and improve a lot. I jsut hope he can keep going.

He will, he'll continue to get better too. A scary prospect.

The skill and vision of Paul Scholes, and the tenacious tackling of Roy Keane.

Fergie has picked up a real gem there.

raven136 · 17-12-2007 12:36PM

Prufrock wrote: »

I think Giles is right to an extent. I mean what is Liverpools best team? Benitez chops and changes his team so much it's hard for any of them to settle. I think there is more to Liverpool than we see now in terms of winning silverware on a regular basis.

United look very good. Should be an interesting race between them and Arsenal. I think United might edge it. Just.

To get a proper picture of liverpool you need to steer away from giles,he has a set idea about rotation and sticks at it,just like dunphy and the ronaldo thing.Dion Fanning writes better about rafa better and makes the point that he has ten players who nearly always play the big games when fit:
reina,finnan,agger,carra,riise,
gerrard,alonso,masch,torres,kuyt.

So we can take it rafa knows his best team,he just changes formation.It isnt a two horse race yet,one or two loses and everything changes,should be a great 2nd half of the season

kida · 17-12-2007 12:40PM

The_B_Man wrote: »

There was that one yellow card incident but sky sports didnt seem to show it...

looks like Gerrard was a bit naughty

~Rebel~ · 17-12-2007 12:44PM

Prufrock wrote: »

I think Giles is right to an extent. I mean what is Liverpools best team? Benitez chops and changes his team so much it's hard for any of them to settle. I think there is more to Liverpool than we see now in terms of winning silverware on a regular basis.

United look very good. Should be an interesting race between them and Arsenal. I think United might edge it. Just.

The way the Liverpool team is going though, im optimistic that we will have a very settled 9 out of 11 within 6 months. Looking at the way its going, the number of automatic starters is growing whenever someone shines head and shoulders over the competition for that spot. E.g Torres has joined in leaving the other spot to be rotated between the other 3. I think Babel will join this soon enough, especially if he can start being as effective from the start as he has been from the bench.

So that would leave a fairly stable team of players who start nearly every game if fit.

Reina, Finnan, Agger, Carra, Arbeloa, Masch, Alonso, Gerrard, Babel, Torres

Those guys soon will probably be playing every game. The odd bit of rotating will be done for Babel and Kewell, which is ok, same with the fullbacks, arbeloa occasionally playing RB and Aurelio/rise playing LB, but overall we would have a fairly stable regular main 8 or 9 players which is exactly what United and arsenal have, especially if we got someone in like benzema, Carlos Eduardo or Mancini who are of the babel WF mould.

colster · 17-12-2007 01:04PM

PORNAPSTER wrote: »

Anyone of the same opinion?

Absolutely. Gerrard is a good player but he doesn't consistently hold a game together like a fabregas or alonso. He tries to do the spectacular too often. Some times you just need to play the simple pass and hold the game together, set the tempo.

~Rebel~ · 17-12-2007 01:07PM

colster wrote: »

Absolutely. Gerrard is a good player but he doesn't consistently hold a game together like a fabregas or alonso. He tries to do the spectacular too often. Some times you just need to play the simple pass and hold the game together, set the tempo.

the ideal scenario is to have gerrard making to runs to be Receiving these passes, rather then trying to make them. Alonsos return will be very welcome. Hopefully he can pick up the best form he's had in the past, which he was again threatening just before he got injured.

kida · 17-12-2007 01:11PM

~Rebel~ wrote: »

the ideal scenario is to have gerrard making to runs to be Receiving these passes, rather then trying to make them. Alonsos return will be very welcome. Hopefully he can pick up the best form he's had in the past, which he was again threatening just before he got injured.

from Central Midfield? Who do you drop? It boils down to he or Liverpool are not at their most effective with him as part of a 2 man midfield?

colster · 17-12-2007 01:19PM

~Rebel~ wrote: »

the ideal scenario is to have gerrard making to runs to be Receiving these passes, rather then trying to make them. Alonsos return will be very welcome. Hopefully he can pick up the best form he's had in the past, which he was again threatening just before he got injured.

Why is that so? Gerrard should be controlling games. Gerrard has most of the qualities to be much better than he is now. He can pass, tackle and shoot but does not have the nous to control a game. Gerrard should be a central midfielder yet Pool play him up front and on the wing. Why is this?

PHB · 17-12-2007 01:20PM

Necromomicon wrote: »

Putting on my neutral hat, I'd have to pick some holes in the Liverpool starting 11 as well.

I said this at the start of the season, Liverpool new 5 new top class players. New CB, New LB, 2 New wingers, New Striker.

--

Mr Alan wrote: »

Ronaldo was muck the whole time

Mr Alan wrote: »

Gerrard,Reina,carra and torres dont deserve stick for their performance today, sure Torres had a quiet second half but that happens sometimes, no big deal.

Funny difference of attitudes there.

--

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

I thought Liverpool controlled the midfield for most of the game, Anderson and Hargreaves did a good job of protecting their back four and little else.

Very poor game, neither team deserved to win really.

I agree with most of that, although I think United deserved to win it really. They created two very good goal scoring chances and took one of them. Liverpool created one and missed it.

I think if you look at all the attacking players in the game, you'll find all of them underperformed. Torres was poor, as was Kewell. Kuyt and Yossi were very poor. Ronaldo was poor, as was Rooney. Giggs and Tevez were very poor. What's the answer to this?
Two excellent defensive performances by both teams central midfield. Anderson and Hargreaves did a great job stopping Liverpools attack. Gerrard and Mascherano did a great job stopping United's attack.

p.s. Mascherano was utterly unreal, did to Ronaldo what he did to Kaka in the CL final. Exact same thing happened to, the second Mascherano was no longer watching him, he did much better for the last 5 minutes, creating that chance for Rooney.
17 million for him is a drop in the ocean for his talent. If Fergie doesn't put in a cheeky bid after January 1 I'll be annoyed.

Happy with the result, but I must say Liverpool surprised me a lot. They came out 4-4-2 and took the game to United, was quite surprised by this.
That said, the reason this worked is because imo Gerrard played one of his best central midfield performances I've ever seen from him. I thought he was immense, and I think everyone by now knows my opinion of him. Won the ball back, got stuck in, played the quick smart pass. The amount of times he found somebody out wide in space was incredible. Problem was the people he was giving the ball to couldn't do crap with it. Liverpool dominated the midfield and it was because of him. If Liverpool had won the game, it would have been because of him. He can't be blamed because the rest of the team wasn't up to it.

Ferdinand and Vidic played fantastically, Torres pace couldn't do much against Rio. Evra was fantastic. Brown was poor. VDS had a mare of a game, very bad, but that happens to all of them. Either way, still think Foster would be 1st choice or at least challenging it by now.

United going forward were very poor, but how they approached the game was very weird. Very deep performance. I think Fergie's game plan was simply that the main threat was from Gerrard and Torres. Because Rafa played a 4-4-2 Gerrard had to be very disciplined and sit back. Then when you play deep, you take away Torres main talent. As such, the game needs to be streched wide, and Liverpool just don't have the talent out there. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think Fergie won a tactical victory here today.

Either way, fantastic fantastic result. Roll of Christmas.

An Citeog · 17-12-2007 01:22PM

kida wrote: »

looks like Gerrard was a bit naughty

Anybody got a video clip of that or did Gerrard manage to find the blind spot of all those Sky cameras? :rolleyes:

It's hard to tell what really happened from a single picture but it's nice to see Anderson can hold his own in the physical stakes.

Paul Tergat · 17-12-2007 01:27PM

PHB wrote: »

Giggs and Tevez were very poor

don'y agree with that at all!

PHB wrote: »

p.s. Mascherano was utterly unreal, did to Ronaldo what he did to Kaka in the CL final. Exact same thing happened to, the second Mascherano was no longer watching him, he did much better for the last 5 minutes, creating that chance for Rooney.
17 million for him is a drop in the ocean for his talent. If Fergie doesn't put in a cheeky bid after January 1 I'll be annoyed.

well where would he play? him or hargreaves won't be happy being rotated/on the bench!

PHB · 17-12-2007 01:30PM

Don't know, but he's gona be a top class player for the future, can't have too many of them

Tevez was very poor. He scored the goal but little else. He was caught in possession way way too much and didn't move the ball anywhere near quick enough. He was the reason we couldn't attack properly imo.

kida · 17-12-2007 01:30PM

An Citeog wrote: »

Anybody got a video clip of that or did Gerrard manage to find the blind spot of all those Sky cameras? :rolleyes:

It's hard to tell what really happened from a single picture but it's nice to see Anderson can hold his own in the physical stakes.

like JT - interesting to see it on video - from stills not any different from Ronaldos red card earlier this season

Paul Tergat · 17-12-2007 01:35PM

PHB wrote: »

Don't know, but he's gona be a top class player for the future, can't have too many of them

dont get me wrong, from a utd point of view it would be great to have him but the chances of it happening are so slim, would annoy pool though if we got a bidding war going

would be very foolish of them not to sign him!

PHB wrote: »

Tevez was very poor. He scored the goal but little else. He was caught in possession way way too much and didn't move the ball anywhere near quick enough. He was the reason we couldn't attack properly imo.

he worked his arse off in a game where he didnt get that much of the ball IMO. he really defended from the front well in a game where for some reason defending seemed to be our game plan.

~Rebel~ · 17-12-2007 01:38PM

colster wrote: »

Why is that so? Gerrard should be controlling games. Gerrard has most of the qualities to be much better than he is now. He can pass, tackle and shoot but does not have the nous to control a game. Gerrard should be a central midfielder yet Pool play him up front and on the wing. Why is this?

Gerrard Can do those things, but as Rafa said, why make him do those, when other people can do them just as well if not better (Masch at covering/tackling, Alonso at controlling play) leaving him to do what the others Can't do, charging forward, linking with an attacking trio, running into space, creating space, harrying from the front, scoring goals, creating etc.

I've said it before, and Zapp and a few others have said the same, that what would suit liverpool best with their current personnel +1 new player would be;

Reina

Back 4

Masch---Alonso

Gerrard
---Babel

NEW.WF

Torres

If the right player was brought in, Mancini, Benzema, Ben Arfa, Carlos Eduardo (yes i am mildly obsessed with that enigma of a player) type player then imo that would be an awesome team. As PHB said, other players are also needed for the squad, new CB, would like a top notch evra/clichy level LB if possible but Arbeloa and Aruelio are decent for the mo.

Juan Pablo · 17-12-2007 01:53PM

bucks73 wrote: »

Sky Sports threw up a mini table of games/points for matches between the top four since August 2004 and it read:

United 38pts
Chelsea 37pts
Arsenal 27pts
Pool 15pts

Unitil that trend changes, and it certainly doesnt appear to be happening this season, Liverpool will never win the league.

Interesting table that. And with Liverpool still having to play each of the top 4 away this season I cant see the trend changing in the near future.

Jazzy · 17-12-2007 02:44PM

liverpool lose cos of their inability to be creative in wide areas and generally floundering in the final third of the pitch but were quite solid defensively and all ppl can do is harp on about how crap gerrard is.
i think these ppl just want gerrard to be crap and will find the first bit of mud possible to fling at him rather then actually analyse the team / match in an unbiased fashion.

yes gerrard is a muppet, but he is also an extremely highly regarded player in the world and is constantly applauded by his peers. they aren't doing that cos they have some sort of hidden agenda, they are saying it because that is actually wat they think.
sure, hate the player as much as you want - but dont deny the fact that yes, he is one of the best midfielders in the PL.
its like ashley cole - wat a little toe rag of a nonce... hes still deadly tho

sweetie · 17-12-2007 02:57PM

Juan Pablo wrote: »

Interesting table that. And with Liverpool still having to play each of the top 4 away this season I cant see the trend changing in the near future.

wonder what it would be like for cup games (i know not everyone has played the same number of games)

Chardee MacDennis · 17-12-2007 03:09PM

PHB wrote: »

I agree with most of that, although I think United deserved to win it really. They created two very good goal scoring chances and took one of them. Liverpool created one and missed it.

.
.
.

As such, the game needs to be streched wide, and Liverpool just don't have the talent out there. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think Fergie won a tactical victory here today.

i'd have to agree with that review of the game. upsettingly....

players like Riise, Kuyt, Benny and Kewell let us down yesterday, lets hope we get some width in January.

Mitch Connor · 17-12-2007 03:19PM

Is Pennant injured at the moment?

I am not his biggest fan, but he can, on occasion, whip a nice cross in and does offer genuine width when he is on the pitch.

~Rebel~ · 17-12-2007 03:23PM

Tauren wrote:

Is Pennant injured at the moment?

I am not his biggest fan, but he can, on occasion, whip a nice cross in and does offer genuine width when he is on the pitch.

yeah he picked up a serious long term injury, broken leg i believe, out till next year anyway. January at the earliest i'd say. He's a loss alright, seriously limits our options for the right, Yossi can be grand against middling teams, but not one to get to the byline and put in a cross.

Mitch Connor · 17-12-2007 03:24PM

fair enough.

Liverpool really do need width, but i'm personally not sure who they should go for.

I don't think Babel or Yossi were the right buys at any rate - neither are wingers.

~Rebel~ · 17-12-2007 03:33PM

Tauren wrote: »

fair enough.

Liverpool really do need width, but i'm personally not sure who they should go for.

I don't think Babel or Yossi were the right buys at any rate - neither are wingers.

Babel im happy with as he's young enough to incorporate a lot more to his game. Its a gamble of 11mill to get a potential top class winger/wingforward in the next few years, rather then 11mill for a good but not unbelieveable winger now.

Yossi i agree with. It's just an odd one. We had Pennant who was decent, what we needed was someone steller, who Pennant would be the backup for. Instead we got another middling player. He's good, not great. Shines at times, but no consistency and very lightweight at times (looks like a strong breeze would carry him away). I think maybe this was another one of Rafa's temporary stopgap/profit moves. This immediately asks questions of the money offered to him over the summer. I get the feeling maybe Babel was being bought regardless, and Malouda would have been the other acquisition, but as Malouda said Rafa wanted him but the board didn't. So instead we got the temp of Yossi. I saw Bellamy as the same, decent player, keep him for a year, sell him for profit. Yossi and Voronin could well be the same.

Hopefully in January and next summer the money will be available for proper replacements.

Mitch Connor · 17-12-2007 03:43PM

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Babel im happy with as he's young enough to incorporate a lot more to his game. Its a gamble of 11mill to get a potential top class winger/wingforward in the next few years, rather then 11mill for a good but not unbelieveable winger now.

I do like Babel - but i simply don't think he is a winger - no more so then someone like Henry or Rooney (players who like to take on a man, drift out side/deep etc.

Babel is a forward player imo, and as such won't fit into a 442 formation, and will not do his best work in a 433/451 formation either. IMO he is a player that will play best off a lead-the-line striker. Putting him out wide left because he has skill/pace/a-left-foot is very English.

As you say, he has the potential to be a top class winger/forward, but not in the Liverpool side - to mature into a top winger style forward, he would need to play for a side like Barcelona - in a position like Ronaldinho or Messi's; a free role type of position.

Sure, he can certainly do a job for you out there on the wing in your current style/formation but i don't think you will get the best out of him.

All just my opinion, of course, and i'm certainly no premiership manager, so it is (i suppose) at least possible that Rafa has more chance of being right than i do.

whatawaster · 17-12-2007 03:53PM

I'm hopeful that the days of us buying squad players is over - we have the basis of a very good squad - we just need quality additions in the right areas.

Goalkeepers - Reina, Itandje (Reina never gets injured, so we're fine there)

Right Backs - Finnan, Arbeloa (Fine here for a couple of years anyway)
Left Backs - New Signing, Aurelio (Get Riise out, get Riise out. It'd be nice to sign a LB who can fill in at CB too.
Centre Backs - Carragher, Agger, New Signing, Hobbs.

Centre Midfield - Mascherano, Alonso, Gerrard, Lucas, New Signing (not a priority). I think we need at least a fifth CM to cover injuries, especially as we sometimes play 3 in the middle away from home. Perhaps Guthrie could do this job.

Right Wing - New Signing, Pennant. Pennant will do fine as second choice, but we need a top class option here. I can't think of many though, Quaresma perhaps, at least he would offer a threat, unlike Benayoun.

Left Wing - New Signing, Kewell. Again, a top class signing is needed. Mancini would be great, I think, or Navas from Sevilla.

Strikers - Torres, New Signing, Babel, Crouch/Kuyt. Sell Voronin for a couple of Mill profit, sell either crouch or Kuyt. I'm leaning towards Crouch as he'd bring in more funds. I'd like to see Babel given a run in the side with Torres to see how that goes. He really impressed me when he came on yesterday. If I were rafa, I would beg and grovel until the owners agreed to sign Benzema, he looks class. Sell Crouch, Riise, Sissoko, Voronin and Benayoun to fund him if necessary.

The priority is a Centre Back, and i'm sure this will be addressed in the Jan window - someone youngish probably like Garay costing 10m wouldn't break the bank since much of those funds were there for Heinze already. I'd sell Momo in january and recall Guthrie as backup. Then i'd hope for a striker (please Benzema) and at least one of the wingers in the summer.

Chardee MacDennis · 17-12-2007 03:53PM

Tauren wrote: »

Babel is a forward player imo, and as such won't fit into a 442 formation, and will not do his best work in a 433/451 formation either. IMO he is a player that will play best off a lead-the-line striker. Putting him out wide left because he has skill/pace/a-left-foot is very English.

well they must have had a lot of English at Ajax as he was playing LW in a 4-3-3 system, from what I have seen of him at Ajax this was his best position. Now it may be as a forward, but i still think he is adjusting to the EPL and he will learn his winger role again.

also he looked like our biggest threat when he came on. also does anyone else think Auriello should have taken out free in the last few minutes, his left peg is amazing at set pieces.

whatawaster · 17-12-2007 03:55PM

Tauren wrote: »

I do like Babel - but i simply don't think he is a winger - no more so then someone like Henry or Rooney (players who like to take on a man, drift out side/deep etc.

Babel is a forward player imo, and as such won't fit into a 442 formation, and will not do his best work in a 433/451 formation either. IMO he is a player that will play best off a lead-the-line striker. Putting him out wide left because he has skill/pace/a-left-foot is very English.

As you say, he has the potential to be a top class winger/forward, but not in the Liverpool side - to mature into a top winger style forward, he would need to play for a side like Barcelona - in a position like Ronaldinho or Messi's; a free role type of position.

Sure, he can certainly do a job for you out there on the wing in your current style/formation but i don't think you will get the best out of him.

All just my opinion, of course, and i'm certainly no premiership manager, so it is (i suppose) at least possible that Rafa has more chance of being right than i do.

I disagree, i think he'd be best as a wing forward, but not as a winger in a 442, as he cut's inside too much. He has No left foot, but he looks more comfortable on the left. I think he'll be a terrific player.

Xavi6 · 17-12-2007 04:03PM

whatawaster wrote: »

Left Wing - New Signing, Kewell. Again, a top class signing is needed. Mancini would be great, I think, or Navas from Sevilla.

Navas won't be going anywhere. From Wiki -

Navas suffers from chronic homesickness, to the extent that he has walked out of training camps within Spain because they were too far away from Seville. He also suffers from anxiety attacks and seizures. Navas initially refused to travel with Sevilla during pre-season to the United States due to his acute homesickness, later deciding that he would travel in a bid to rid himself of this condition.

And last time I checked he was a right winger.

~Rebel~ · 17-12-2007 04:06PM

Call_me_al wrote: »

also he looked like our biggest threat when he came on. also does anyone else think Auriello should have taken out free in the last few minutes, his left peg is amazing at set pieces.

I know what you mean, he does usually come very very close with his free's, but at the same time, has yet to score one for pool (i think!). I think under the high pressure situation, having seen what happened against Villa under similar circumstances, Gerrard was probably the logical option.

whatawaster · 17-12-2007 04:08PM

Xavi6 wrote: »

Navas won't be going anywhere. From Wiki -

And last time I checked he was a right winger.

Steer well clear then so.

Liverpool v Man Utd - Sunday 16th December

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