Does anybody still play sng's?

max_power · 06-12-2007 01:46AM #1

Well? After playing solely cash for the last few months i've gone back to where i, and i'm sure a lot of other people started playing, the humble sng. It's proven to be quite profitable so far, just wondering if anyone else plays them? Atm i'm playing 6 max ones on ipoker from $20-$50. So does anyone else still play them? What stakes and sites? Do stars or any other sites spread 6 max sng's? I've been reading the stt forum on twoplustwo but pretty much everyone there is playing the full ring stars or ftp games. Are people using any specialist sng software or pokertracker or what? Bit of a ramble but any feedback would be interesting.

AKQJ10 · 06-12-2007 01:54AM

wats the worst thing about playiin sit n go's?

telling your parents ur a homo

max_power · 06-12-2007 02:04AM

Haha, thats probably the funniest thing i've ever heard you say.

sickpuppy · 06-12-2007 02:11AM

Great response akqj10.
In reply Max i play sngs on ipoker mostly 50 and 100 6handed for change and usually the turbos.
You should invest in sharkscope 41dollars for 3months subscribtion,this allows
you a150searches on players a day gives there win ratio and other usefull info.
Compared to the big sites like stars and full tilt the standard on ipoker is piss poor,which should then result in good results for you.
Both stars and fulltilt spread 6max games both turbos and regular games.
If you play on stars get sitand go wizard its free i think and useful also.
Sngs can bore the tits off ya but if your making money who cares.

Gillybean72 · 06-12-2007 01:16PM

I play 9 handed SnGs on stars, at low stakes. usually $5. I find them boring at times, but since I usually profit out them I still do it.

sickpuppy, tell me for about the wizard? cheers

CaptainNemo · 06-12-2007 01:33PM

SnG's: all the depression of a tournament with much smaller prizes.

DeadParrot · 06-12-2007 01:34PM

I'd usually play $50/$100 full ring STTs on ipoker if Im playing them.
I find them handier than 6pacs tbh

BIGMICKG · 06-12-2007 02:57PM

im surprised at everyone saying sngs are so boring, i think there a lot more interesting than cash games and i play them every day. at least in sngs u have have to change gears as the blinds increase and as players get knocked out. in cash u just have have a certain range from each position and play like a robot. also alot of the best online mtt players prefer sngs to cash

sickpuppy · 06-12-2007 03:12PM

Gillcarr if you just google sitngowizard youll get all the info you need.
Theres a 30day free trial so why not avail of it.

Ace2007 · 06-12-2007 03:17PM

BIGMICKG wrote: »

im surprised at everyone saying sngs are so boring, i think there a lot more interesting than cash games

Totally agreed, though i play very little online, i do find sng relatively good and do perfer them to cash, only ever played $10 or $20 6 player.

FutureGuy · 06-12-2007 03:23PM

I play $22+2 9 player SNG on FTP. Most of the time, the players are decent, but some can be shocking. Moving up to $33+3 soon if my BR hits 900 by the end of the week.

The_Chopper · 06-12-2007 03:23PM

DeadParrot wrote: »

I'd usually play $50/$100 full ring STTs on ipoker if Im playing them.
I find them handier than 6pacs tbh

.

Mainly 50's though

nicnicnic · 06-12-2007 03:26PM

BIGMICKG wrote: »

im surprised at everyone saying sngs are so boring, i think there a lot more interesting than cash games and i play them every day. at least in sngs u have have to change gears as the blinds increase and as players get knocked out. in cash u just have have a certain range from each position and play like a robot. also alot of the best online mtt players prefer sngs to cash

Pay no attention Mick there's many poker snobs about; I played stts for a solid 9 months last year into this year and always enjoyed them.

max_power · 06-12-2007 03:45PM

Yeah nic i agree, there's definitely a tendency for cash players to look down on sngs, don't wanna get into the cash -v- tourney debate but i think they can be very profitable. Btw what sort of bankroll management are you using? I've seen a lot of people on twoplustwo advocating having at least 100 buy ins for whatever level, surely this is a bit ott or can the swings actually be that big? Should your roll be smaller for playing 6 max?

FutureGuy · 06-12-2007 03:56PM

The figure I have heard most is about 20 buyins for what ever level of STT you are playing at. I prefer 25 buyins up to 33+3, and 30 buyins to play at 55+5.

The swings can be pretty severe. I was in the money for 14 stts in a row about 6 months ago. A month later, I didn't get in the money for 13 in a row which was devastating to my poker confidence at the time (I actually withdrew my money and quit for 6 weeks!).

The_Chopper · 06-12-2007 03:56PM

I go 20 buy ins
But I don't tend to go beyond 100s as there isn't much traffic on IPoker.

I think if you loose 20 buy ins in a row you should maybe think about giving up poker

DeadParrot · 06-12-2007 03:56PM

100 buyins?
Thats a vicious swing list imho
20-30 buyins would be normal enough, if you are somewhat competent.

*fully expects BR management types to tear me apart

nicnicnic · 06-12-2007 04:07PM

max_power wrote: »

Yeah nic i agree, there's definitely a tendency for cash players to look down on sngs, don't wanna get into the cash -v- tourney debate but i think they can be very profitable. Btw what sort of bankroll management are you using? I've seen a lot of people on twoplustwo advocating having at least 100 buy ins for whatever level, surely this is a bit ott or can the swings actually be that big? Should your roll be smaller for playing 6 max?

Max you have no idea how bad the variance can be in these and I firmly believe that a sample size of 1000 is nothing. I've run 500 games with a 33% roi and 1000 games with 1%.although I haven't played that much cash I think you can run worse in these then cash. I've seen winning players go on 100 buyin down swings. I also used to play with a guy who had a -6roi over 3000 games I knew he was one of the best I played with and couldn't understand the stats he also knew and was destroyed by it but was a winning mtt player and kept plugging away by 4000 games he had turned it around and had a slight positive roi

I really think 5000 games is needed to ascertain what your to get an Idea of what your true win rate is. Also your rakeback can be huge especially for an experienced multi tabler like your self.

I did a six months challenge type thing with stts that finished about this time last year ill dig out the link. Much of the stuff i it is very naive but you might get something from it

Gillybean72 · 06-12-2007 04:22PM

sickpuppy wrote: »

Gillcarr if you just google sitngowizard youll get all the info you need.
Theres a 30day free trial so why not avail of it.

Cheers

Gillian

Iago · 06-12-2007 04:25PM

The_Chopper wrote: »

I go 20 buy ins
But I don't tend to go beyond 100s as there isn't much traffic on IPoker.

I think if you loose 20 buy ins in a row you should maybe think about giving up poker

lol...so possible on a regular basis!

variance is a bitch

The_Chopper · 06-12-2007 04:30PM

IPoker is very soft though - loosing 20 buys in would be like loosing 20 buy ins playing against 9 blind dogs

max_power · 06-12-2007 05:04PM

nicnicnic wrote: »

Max you have no idea how bad the variance can be in these and I firmly believe that a sample size of 1000 is nothing. I've run 500 games with a 33% roi and 1000 games with 1%.although I haven't played that much cash I think you can run worse in these then cash. I've seen winning players go on 100 buyin down swings. I also used to play with a guy who had a -6roi over 3000 games I knew he was one of the best I played with and couldn't understand the stats he also knew and was destroyed by it but was a winning mtt player and kept plugging away by 4000 games he had turned it around and had a slight positive roi

I really think 5000 games is needed to ascertain what your to get an Idea of what your true win rate is. Also your rakeback can be huge especially for an experienced multi tabler like your self.

I did a six months challenge type thing with stts that finished about this time last year ill did out the link. Much of the stuff i it is very naive but you might get something from it

Cheers nic, it would be interesting to see your challenge alright, i know what you mean about the downswings, although i haven't played near as many sngs as you it can get disheartening, atm i've got about 70bi's and i'm 5 tabling usually. Any idea how the rakeback works on sng's? presume it's a percentage of the reg fee, how much? I really have to get sharkscope too as im still only using the 5 free searches and after your first one in a day its useless. I actually sharkscoped 5 players at a 200 sng the other night, all 5 were losing players, one down 10k, and most of their average stake was in and around 20 lol. Pretty sick run that guy was on you mentioned.

HoLLLLLaments · 06-12-2007 05:10PM

The reason most people start with sngs is because they offer a fun and quick way to build your bankroll against a usually weak pool of opponents. They can be very profitable if you employ the right strategy, especially at lower stakes. As your rise up the stakes and come towards the end of the levels sites offer ($500s/1ks) they become alot harder to beat and alot of people are just multitabling them to beat the rake. Although i hear some betfair affilates are offering a pretty sick propping deal where you can get 110% rb as long as you are starting up new games. People used to be able to 12 table the 200$s on party maintaing a 20% roi but those days are gone. the pool of players at the higher stake sngs are of a really good quality now so they arent as profitable anymore. There are some very good players who can maintain high Rois at these stakes but most people cant and thats why people move to cash because playing 1knl cash will be far more profitable then playing 1ksngs, its just that you can get to the 1k sngs faster if you put the same amount of work into your game.

re bankroll mangement for sngs i think 40bis is around the right amount. 20bis is a very small number and if your multi tabling,say 4 tables, and dont cash in 4sngs then your down to 16bis and will have to step down right way which can be frustrating.40bis will give you that extra bit of leeway. i reccomend moving up when you have 40bis at the next level up and moving down if you drop below 40bi at whatever level your playing at.

this thread on two plus two has a great collection of some of the better posts from the STT forum there
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=singletable&Number=1918735

flopturnriver has some good aricles on sngs, heres a link to one, you should be able to find the rest from here http://www.flopturnriver.com/Sit-n-Go-Strategy-Guide.html

this site has a really good downloadble heads up trainer programme which should help you define pushing and calling ranges in the head up stages of sit and gos.
http://www.sngegt.com/

this link has a collection of "curtains" (sick good sng player) articles on sngs
http://www.gogol.co.uk/curtains/

this pocket fives link has a basic intro to sngs
http://www.pocketfives.com/BCA6D444-A5E4-4839-9849-9D90D4AC7658.aspx
this link to pocketfives has some advice on sng bubble play/ICM http://www.pocketfives.com/D91C4382-EF81-404F-A47E-32F4BECA917C.aspx

heres a link to an ICM calculator although i think theres one at sngegt

http://www.chillin411.com/icmcalc.php

also ive heard good things about www.sngicons.com as a training site for sngs but havnt tried it. WPT champ jonathan little is chief instructor there and hes pretty sick good at sngs. If you are a cardrunners member watch actionjeffs sng vids. they are a must. Id join up for cardrunners just to watch these vids actually.

hope that helped, i wasnt expecting my first post to be this long

nicnicnic · 06-12-2007 05:13PM

nicnicnic wrote: »

Max you have no idea how bad the variance can be in these and I firmly believe that a sample size of 1000 is nothing. I've run 500 games with a 33% roi and 1000 games with 1%.although I haven't played that much cash I think you can run worse in these then cash. I've seen winning players go on 100 buyin down swings. I also used to play with a guy who had a -6roi over 3000 games I knew he was one of the best I played with and couldn't understand the stats he also knew and was destroyed by it but was a winning mtt player and kept plugging away by 4000 games he had turned it around and had a slight positive roi

I really think 5000 games is needed to ascertain what your to get an Idea of what your true win rate is. Also your rakeback can be huge especially for an experienced multi tabler like your self.

I did a six months challenge type thing with stts that finished about this time last year ill dig out the link. Much of the stuff i it is very naive but you might get something from it

here the link . Just a warning on scope, you can only read so much in to results someone could be running bad over a smallish sample , someone with a bigger that seems a looser may have improved lately so look at recent part of there graphs. while it will definitely identify the biggest fish I think your notes will be more important. Knowing who fights back and who dosent from the blinds is the most important info you can have in an stt IMO

Flushdraw · 06-12-2007 05:15PM

You could always try what this guy tried and play 4000 sit and go's in 4 months. You'll get an idea of variance over the course of the experiment..

4000 STTs in 4 months thread
4000 STTs in 4 months diary

nicnicnic · 06-12-2007 05:16PM

as for the rakeback when I was playing them on crypto I had 35% so i just got $35 for every $100 I payed but you should check this out as some sites dont give rakeback on tournaments

nicnicnic · 06-12-2007 05:26PM

HoLLLLLaments wrote: »

The reason most people start with sngs is because they offer a fun and quick way to build your bankroll against a usually weak pool of opponents. They can be very profitable if you employ the right strategy, especially at lower stakes. As your rise up the stakes and come towards the end of the levels sites offer ($500s/1ks) they become alot harder to beat and alot of people are just multitabling them to beat the rake. Although i hear some betfair affilates are offering a pretty sick propping deal where you can get 110% rb as long as you are starting up new games. People used to be able to 12 table the 200$s on party maintaing a 20% roi but those days are gone. the pool of players at the higher stake sngs are of a really good quality now so they arent as profitable anymore. There are some very good players who can maintain high Rois at these stakes but most people cant and thats why people move to cash because playing 1knl cash will be far more profitable then playing 1ksngs, its just that you can get to the 1k sngs faster if you put the same amount of work into your game.

re bankroll mangement for sngs i think 40bis is around the right amount. 20bis is a very small number and if your multi tabling,say 4 tables, and dont cash in 4sngs then your down to 16bis and will have to step down right way which can be frustrating.40bis will give you that extra bit of leeway. i reccomend moving up when you have 40bis at the next level up and moving down if you drop below 40bi at whatever level your playing at.

this thread on two plus two has a great collection of some of the better posts from the STT forum there
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=singletable&Number=1918735

flopturnriver has some good aricles on sngs, heres a link to one, you should be able to find the rest from here http://www.flopturnriver.com/Sit-n-Go-Strategy-Guide.html

this site has a really good downloadble heads up trainer programme which should help you define pushing and calling ranges in the head up stages of sit and gos.
http://www.sngegt.com/

this link has a collection of "curtains" (sick good sng player) articles on sngs
http://www.gogol.co.uk/curtains/

this pocket fives link has a basic intro to sngs
http://www.pocketfives.com/BCA6D444-A5E4-4839-9849-9D90D4AC7658.aspx
this link to pocketfives has some advice on sng bubble play/ICM http://www.pocketfives.com/D91C4382-EF81-404F-A47E-32F4BECA917C.aspx

heres a link to an ICM calculator although i think theres one at sngegt

http://www.chillin411.com/icmcalc.php

also ive heard good things about www.sngicons.com as a training site for sngs but havnt tried it. WPT champ jonathan little is chief instructor there and hes pretty sick good at sngs. If you are a cardrunners member watch actionjeffs sng vids. they are a must. Id join up for cardrunners just to watch these vids actually.

hope that helped, i wasnt expecting my first post to be this long

great post and welcome, that betfair 110% sounds good and I kind of see what there at ie a traffic push anymore details. starting playing these with a + 11 roi could get my juices flowing for them again

max_power · 06-12-2007 05:28PM

Nice first post Hollllaments.. i've been looking at the stt forum on twoplustwo, tbh a lot of the stuff there is ridiculously standard especially comapred to the more in depth stuff on cash games ie http://http://forums.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=74245, pretty much all of it is geared toward full ring too. Some other useful links there though cheers.

cooker3 · 06-12-2007 05:39PM

If I only could play SnG's then I would quit poker.

But if you can handle it then they are a nice easy way of building your bankroll to a fairly decent amount but like Nic said the higher you play the harder it gets and the more likely you switch to cash but for a Noob they are probably the best and safest starting point into online poker

The Istanbul · 06-12-2007 05:44PM

HoLLLLLaments wrote: »

The reason most people start with sngs is because they offer a fun and quick way to build your bankroll against a usually weak pool of opponents. They can be very profitable if you employ the right strategy, especially at lower stakes. As your rise up the stakes and come towards the end of the levels sites offer ($500s/1ks) they become alot harder to beat and alot of people are just multitabling them to beat the rake. Although i hear some betfair affilates are offering a pretty sick propping deal where you can get 110% rb as long as you are starting up new games. People used to be able to 12 table the 200$s on party maintaing a 20% roi but those days are gone. the pool of players at the higher stake sngs are of a really good quality now so they arent as profitable anymore. There are some very good players who can maintain high Rois at these stakes but most people cant and thats why people move to cash because playing 1knl cash will be far more profitable then playing 1ksngs, its just that you can get to the 1k sngs faster if you put the same amount of work into your game.

re bankroll mangement for sngs i think 40bis is around the right amount. 20bis is a very small number and if your multi tabling,say 4 tables, and dont cash in 4sngs then your down to 16bis and will have to step down right way which can be frustrating.40bis will give you that extra bit of leeway. i reccomend moving up when you have 40bis at the next level up and moving down if you drop below 40bi at whatever level your playing at.

this thread on two plus two has a great collection of some of the better posts from the STT forum there
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=singletable&Number=1918735

flopturnriver has some good aricles on sngs, heres a link to one, you should be able to find the rest from here http://www.flopturnriver.com/Sit-n-Go-Strategy-Guide.html

this site has a really good downloadble heads up trainer programme which should help you define pushing and calling ranges in the head up stages of sit and gos.
http://www.sngegt.com/

this link has a collection of "curtains" (sick good sng player) articles on sngs
http://www.gogol.co.uk/curtains/

this pocket fives link has a basic intro to sngs
http://www.pocketfives.com/BCA6D444-A5E4-4839-9849-9D90D4AC7658.aspx
this link to pocketfives has some advice on sng bubble play/ICM http://www.pocketfives.com/D91C4382-EF81-404F-A47E-32F4BECA917C.aspx

heres a link to an ICM calculator although i think theres one at sngegt

http://www.chillin411.com/icmcalc.php

also ive heard good things about www.sngicons.com as a training site for sngs but havnt tried it. WPT champ jonathan little is chief instructor there and hes pretty sick good at sngs. If you are a cardrunners member watch actionjeffs sng vids. they are a must. Id join up for cardrunners just to watch these vids actually.

hope that helped, i wasnt expecting my first post to be this long

Excellent beginning to your Boards career. Thanks for the links

HoLLLLLaments · 06-12-2007 05:54PM

nicnicnic wrote: »

great post and welcome, that betfair 110% sounds good and I kind of see what there at ie a traffic push anymore details. starting playing these with a + 11 roi could get my juices flowing for them again

i cant remember all the details, a buddy told be about it on msn. i think its like 50% for 30$-50$,70% for 50$-100$ 110% for 100$ plus or something like that. when he comes on msn ill pm u link.

Does anybody still play sng's?

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