Hows this for a mad/bad idea for soccer..........

ROCKMAN · 25-09-2007 02:09PM

Eirebear wrote:

how about we ditch draws all together and go for the old J league approach of penalty shoot outs in the event that both teams are level....that worked quite well :rolleyes:
Or even better...as the above one would eventually cause teams to play for penalties...maybe we should award the game to the team who won the most corners like they used to do in schoolboy football?

If it aint broke...dont try and fix it

But it is broke
bigger clubs getting richer
the gap getting bigger
the league winners are predictable year after year
the refs making bad decisions every week
did the ball cross the line yes or no debate at least once a season
was it a peno ??
diving
red cards
vicious tackles going unpunished

MrJoeSoap · 25-09-2007 02:12PM

ROCKMAN wrote:

But it is broke
bigger clubs getting richer
the gap getting bigger
the league winners are predictable year after year
the refs making bad decisions every week
did the ball cross the line yes or no debate at least once a season
was it a peno ??
diving
red cards
vicious tackles going unpunished

The thing is, the "it" to which you are referring is not the points system. It isn't the points systems fault that the bigger clubs are getting richer and the gap is increasing.

Call Me Jimmy · 25-09-2007 02:14PM

I'm loving the way the people completely against bonus points for scoring more goals just lump anyone who would consider the idea into the meathead american/japanese group. Did anyone in this thread propose half-goals for hitting the woodwork? No.

Amount of goals scored != Quality of game.

Of course not but most of the time it does. And by rewarding when teams score more goals it means they set up to play attacking footballing and it is a more open game, it's not about the goals scored it's about what it takes to score more goals.

MrJoeSoap · 25-09-2007 02:14PM

leninbenjamin wrote:

the paying fans lose out as the qaulity of the game falls

Are you arguing that the standard of football is falling? Maybe we should pay the players less then, see how they deal with that.

leninbenjamin · 25-09-2007 02:17PM

DesF wrote:

Are you trying to suggest that great defending somehow takes from away from the quality of a game?

ok, one of us has completely lost the plot.

at one stage in this thread you mentioned that Rugby was nuts for giving points to teams who don't win, and i quoted that and replied that it could work.

i'm not talking about giving points for more goals, i'm talking about giving points to losing teams who manage to keep the within a certain range, say one goal, which would actually result in better defending imo. obviously though it would mean that the points tally would have to be entirely different but in theory there might be justification for it. say 5 points for a win, with one point in the balance, if the winning score is say above a certain range the winner gets it, if its below the loser gets it... apologies if i did not make this clear. kinda like the rugby you were giving out about.

Edit:

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Are you arguing that the standard of football is falling? Maybe we should pay the players less then, see how they deal with that.

meh, more that the gulf between teams is becoming exaggerated and is resulting in some games that just aren't great to watch. standard would be the wrong word, maybe the competativeness of certain matches would be better. i'm just saying a rejigging of the points system could possibly work in favour to lessence the gulf possibly

Savman · 25-09-2007 02:18PM

Stop the madness this is the worst idea ever.
I propose a different system: whoever scores the most goals, wins.

MrJoeSoap · 25-09-2007 02:18PM

Call Me Jimmy wrote:

I'm loving the way the people completely against bonus points for scoring more goals just lump anyone who would consider the idea into the meathead american/japanese group. Did anyone in this thread propose half-goals for hitting the woodwork? No.

And it's funny how people are advocating change for changes sake. If the standard of football is dropping, which I certainly don't think it is, then it isn't because three points are being awarded for a win, and one for a draw. It goes much much deeper than this, managers are focusing on three competitions at a time (a la Benitez on Saturday, why bother spending £20m plus on a striker if he can't handle two games in four days ffs, maybe spend an extra million on cotton wool while you're at it). There are many other reasons but I'm not too pushed to go into them now.

There is nothing wrong with the current system.

MrJoeSoap · 25-09-2007 02:19PM

Savman wrote:

Stop the madness this is the worst idea ever.
I propose a different system: whoever scores the most goals, wins.

Have you ever been called a visionary?

Savman · 25-09-2007 02:21PM

leninbenjamin wrote:

ok, one of us has completely lost the plot.

at one stage in this thread you mentioned that Rugby was nuts for giving points to teams who don't win, and i quoted that and replied that it could work.

i'm not talking about giving points for more goals, i'm talking about giving points to losing teams who manage to keep the within a certain range, say one goal, which would actually result in better defending imo. obviously though it would mean that the points tally would have to be entirely different but in theory there might be justification for it. say 5 points for a win, with one point in the balance, if the winning score is say above a certain range the winner gets it, if its below the loser gets it... apologies if i did not make this clear. kinda like the rugby you were giving out about.

No no no no no. If you like the rules of Rugby, go and watch Rugby. In football you get your due reward, sometimes that reward is sweet FA. There is no bonus for being piss poor and losing, kinda like life. The league system, at present, is absolutely perfect IMHO. The team that wins the league, does so deservedly becuase they won the most games, scored the most goals and collected the most points over the course of the season.

That is the perfect system, there simply isn't a better way of doing it. Bomus points me arse - I'd say that notion will be about as successful as the yanks "kick in" proposal in the 90's. That really took off.:rolleyes:

Eirebear · 25-09-2007 02:22PM

ROCKMAN wrote:

But it is broke
bigger clubs getting richerthe bigger clubs have always been richer..and what about west ham/man city and numerous others who have had money pumped into them?
the gap getting biggerThen its up to teams to do better, do you really think that giving "bonus points" will change that?
the league winners are predictable year after yearthats the exact same point as above
the refs making bad decisions every weekand bonus points will change this how? referees have historically made bad decisions
did the ball cross the line yes or no debate at least once a seasonagain, bonus points will change this will it? what would football be if it wasnt for the debates before/during and after games?
was it a peno ??maybe?
divingok maybe we should offer bonus points to people who dont dive?
red cards yes, they generally come after a yelland a few more fouls
vicious tackles going unpunishedand this never happened in the 60's 70's 80'?

So many of your points are completely ridiculous...if football is so bad why do you bother watching?

MrJoeSoap · 25-09-2007 02:22PM

leninbenjamin wrote:

say 5 points for a win, with one point in the balance, if the winning score is say above a certain range the winner gets it, if its below the loser gets it...

All that is going to do is make the gap between the bigger and smaller teams infinitely bigger. I suspect you haven't thought your argument through.

I can guarantee that if you were to go back over any season of the Premiership and apply that system the results would make you change your mind.

_blank_ · 25-09-2007 02:24PM

Savman wrote:

Stop the madness this is the worst idea ever.
I propose a different system: whoever scores the most goals, wins.

Heh, maybe it should be the team who create the most chances, eh?

_blank_ · 25-09-2007 02:28PM

Bonus point for keeping within a certain distance would make average teams go on the hunt for goals once they go, say, two down.

What would happen then is that the better teams would then exploit the even more exposed defence and get a hatful of goals.

Hmm, yes, it would be more goals for sure, but the average team would be conceding more, not scoring them.

OR, the losing team would shut up shop at 1-0 down, bring on an extra defender or two in a bid to earn the 'bonus' point for entertaining us all for eighty minutes with six defenders on the pitch.

FFS lads, it's completely unworkable. Completely ridiculous.

If you want to see games with high scores, where the losing team gets a nice pat on the head, go and watch rugger.

PHB · 25-09-2007 02:32PM

Bonus points work in things like rugby where you score many timesin a game, in soccer, one goal can and often is all that wins or loses a match, bonus points just don't really work imo as a proper format, especially not in the league. As for the CL, enough goals are scored as it is

Ultimately, rugby needs things like this to make the sport more appealing to everybody. Soccer is popular enough as it is

All I want from rugby is their use of video technology, also I kinda like the idea of a sin bin to be honest. I don't think punching somebody in anger should be a red card, while I think trying to injure somebody should be. Not only would it increase the fun of matches, it would also decrease the ability of a ref to screw up games.

_blank_ · 25-09-2007 02:35PM

PHB wrote:

I don't think punching somebody in anger should be a red card,

You don't think punching someone should be a red card?

GAA for you then

ROCKMAN · 25-09-2007 02:37PM

PHB wrote:

Bonus points work in things like rugby where you score many timesin a game, in soccer, one goal can and often is all that wins or loses a match, bonus points just don't really work imo as a proper format, especially not in the league. As for the CL, enough goals are scored as it is

Ultimately, rugby needs things like this to make the sport more appealing to everybody. Soccer is popular enough as it is

All I want from rugby is their use of video technology, also I kinda like the idea of a sin bin to be honest. I don't think punching somebody in anger should be a red card, while I think trying to injure somebody should be. Not only would it increase the fun of matches, it would also decrease the ability of a ref to screw up games.

I must say I like your idea of using the sin bin. Punish the player and their team but would not ruin the game hmmm

PHB · 25-09-2007 02:46PM

DesF wrote:

You don't think punching someone should be a red card?

GAA for you then

lol

I think to be honest, if it's done with intent to injure somebody, like a deliberate punch, it should be a red card. But if its something done in anger, like pushing somebody in the face with your hand, it should be a sin bin. I really don't like this whole, can't raise the hands culture.

eirebhoy · 25-09-2007 03:37PM

DesF wrote:

Bonus point for keeping within a certain distance would make average teams go on the hunt for goals once they go, say, two down.

What would happen then is that the better teams would then exploit the even more exposed defence and get a hatful of goals.

Hmm, yes, it would be more goals for sure, but the average team would be conceding more, not scoring them.

OR, the losing team would shut up shop at 1-0 down, bring on an extra defender or two in a bid to earn the 'bonus' point for entertaining us all for eighty minutes with six defenders on the pitch.

FFS lads, it's completely unworkable. Completely ridiculous.

If you want to see games with high scores, where the losing team gets a nice pat on the head, go and watch rugger.

The bonus point for finishing within a goal of the opposition is a ridiculous idea. A bonus point for a certain amount of goals might work but it shouldn't carry the same weight as a draw. Maybe 6 points for a win, 2 for a draw and 1 for a certain amount of goals but that's a bit mad.

MrJoeSoap · 25-09-2007 03:42PM

Increasing the number of points for a win just flat-out won't work, no matter what bonus points are handed out. It'll only increase the gap.

PHB · 25-09-2007 04:03PM

Increasing the number of points for a win to 3 made a huge difference, 4 I think is just too much of a gap.

eirebhoy · 25-09-2007 04:18PM

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Increasing the number of points for a win just flat-out won't work

6 points for a win and 2 for a draw is just the same as the current system...

/edit, unless you're replying to someone else.

_blank_ · 25-09-2007 04:37PM

eirebhoy wrote:

6 points for a win and 2 for a draw is just the same as the current system...

/edit, unless you're replying to someone else.

But the gap "looks" bigger.
1
Manchester United (C)
P : 38 W : 28 (84) D : 5 (5) L : 5 Pts : 89
P : 38 W : 28 (168)D : 5 (10) L : 5 (5 Bonus)Pts : 183
Manchester United's League Losses
They get a point for ALL of their losses!

Man U 0-1 Arsenal
West Ham 1 - 0 Man U
Arsenal 2 - 1 Man U
Portsmouth 2 - 1 Man U
Man U 0 - 1 West Ham

Chelsea
P : 38 W : 24 (72) D : 11 (11) L : 3 Pts : 83
P : 38 W : 24 (144) D : 11 (22) L : 3 (3 Bonus)Pts : 171
Chelsea's League Losses

Chelsea get a bonus point for all their losses!
Middlesboro 2-1 Chelsea
Spurs 2-1 Chelsea
Bolton 1-0 Chelsea
So instead of winning by 6 points ManU win by 12 - if my maths is ok?

Anyway, I'm not so sure this 'gap' is a points thing, which would take this off topic, but anyway.

The 'gap' the the monetary difference between the bigget and smaller teams.

eirebhoy · 25-09-2007 05:24PM

DesF wrote:

But the gap "looks" bigger.
1
Manchester United (C)
P : 38 W : 28 (84) D : 5 (5) L : 5 Pts : 89
P : 38 W : 28 (168)D : 5 (10) L : 5 (5 Bonus)Pts : 183
Manchester United's League Losses
They get a point for ALL of their losses!

I never said a team should get a point for finishing within a goal of the opposition though. That's just stupid.

Mr Alan · 25-09-2007 05:38PM

the whole idea is stupid.

this just reminds me of the ad for Bud, "we'll do the beer,you do the football thing"

Leave football as it is, clamp down on diving, bit of goal line technology maybe, be don't be changing fundamental rules etc

i dont like change

Zapp Brannigan · 25-09-2007 06:53PM

Only idea Soccer should take from Rugby is that the ref will only talk to the captain. No other play can approach the ref.

leninbenjamin · 25-09-2007 07:12PM

DesF wrote:

But the gap "looks" bigger.
1
Manchester United (C)
P : 38 W : 28 (84) D : 5 (5) L : 5 Pts : 89
P : 38 W : 28 (168)D : 5 (10) L : 5 (5 Bonus)Pts : 183
Manchester United's League Losses
They get a point for ALL of their losses!

Man U 0-1 Arsenal
West Ham 1 - 0 Man U
Arsenal 2 - 1 Man U
Portsmouth 2 - 1 Man U
Man U 0 - 1 West Ham

Chelsea
P : 38 W : 24 (72) D : 11 (11) L : 3 Pts : 83
P : 38 W : 24 (144) D : 11 (22) L : 3 (3 Bonus)Pts : 171
Chelsea's League Losses

Chelsea get a bonus point for all their losses!
Middlesboro 2-1 Chelsea
Spurs 2-1 Chelsea
Bolton 1-0 Chelsea
So instead of winning by 6 points ManU win by 12 - if my maths is ok?

Anyway, I'm not so sure this 'gap' is a points thing, which would take this off topic, but anyway.

The 'gap' the the monetary difference between the bigget and smaller teams.

in fairness you're completely failing to understand the motivations behind it... but, whatever. i concede.

d22ontour · 25-09-2007 07:36PM

Zapp Brannigan wrote:

Only idea Soccer should take from Rugby is that the ref will only talk to the captain. No other play can approach the ref.

Agreed though the movement of the ball 10 metres for dissent is also a decent idea...

leninbenjamin · 25-09-2007 07:39PM

d22ontour wrote:

Agreed though the movement of the ball 10 metres for dissent is also a decent idea...

there was a while where that was in the prem but they got rid of it. i never found out why...

5starpool · 26-09-2007 02:13AM

DesF wrote:

Perhaps teams should abandon defenders altogether and just go all out for goals, maybe a 1-3-6 formation.

I remember a computer game I had on the Commodore 64 called Multi Player Soccer Manager where once you got in the top 2 divisions the formation that guaranteed about 150 goals a season was 2-3-5. The game got a bit boring after a while though unless playing 3 or 4 player game.

ROCKMAN · 26-09-2007 12:14PM

millersangel wrote:

the whole idea is stupid.

this just reminds me of the ad for Bud, "we'll do the beer,you do the football thing"

Leave football as it is, clamp down on diving, bit of goal line technology maybe, be don't be changing fundamental rules etc

i dont like change

The idea may be stupid but leaving football as it is ,Is not a great idea , Football needs to change ever so often .If not we would still be stuck with the back pass (THE BEST RULE CHANGE EVER IMO). As another poster say defence is a art form but without that change where would that part of the game be.
My OP was about trying something new to bring the standard and entertainment value of games up.
Example
Two of the top or bottom four are playing Team A take a two gaol lead with 30 mins left My bonus idea stops
1 Losing team from dropping heads and giving up they still have something to play for ie stopping their title /regulation rivals get bonus point
2 It stops Winning team playing keep ball and pasting the ball across the backfour for the last 30 mins ,it give them something to chase and a reason to play football for the full 90 minutes.

The bonus also help with the chase for europe for the same reasons.

OK I will say I have looked back at the last few seasons and the posters are right about the gap between the big 4 and the rest would increase but that is happening anyway ,however it tightens it up between the top 4
This way just may lead to the league been more interesting for longer and not just a two horse race for the title for the last few months

Ps My OP was for 1 bonus point for 3/4 goals scored not bonus points for this ,that and the other. just a simple score 4 get extra point but the idea was complicated along the way with ideas I do not agree with myself.

Hows this for a mad/bad idea for soccer..........

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