Any Creationists here?

magicbastarder · 14-03-2007 10:34AM

Scofflaw wrote:

You know, if I was black, I probably would post on white power boards.

i'm sure you'd find something better to do with your time.

Zombrex · 14-03-2007 11:14AM

magicbastarder wrote:

it's not necessarily this thread to which i object, it's just a minor example of the combative nature atheism has taken over the last few years, with dawkins as its high priest. pun intended.

I think it would be rather naive to think that Christian Creationism doesn't effect both Christians and non-Christians (atheist or otherwise) a like.

This is a forum for discussing issues around Christianity after all. Over the various Creationist threads there have been Christians supporting Christian Creationism, Christians who don't support Christian Creationism and non-Christians who also don't support Christian Creationism (surprisingly enough). This is after all a forum for discussing Christian issues, and Christian Creationism is a Christian issue, one that effects not just Christians.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean be "combative atheism"

There is a perception that atheists often go looking for a fight on issues that have very little to do with them. While it would be very silly of me to say this doesn't ever happen (I'm sure it does as doing so is a trait that all humans suffer from and atheists are, despite what you read, humans as well

) it is also true that theists will often view an issue only from a theist position and therefore not see what the big deal is, where as it is in fact a big deal.

For example some posters on this thread have said that Christians should just leave evolution to the atheists and concentrate on their relationship with God. That might sound like a nice idea, but what happens when one of those Christians needs a life saving drug that has been developed by modern biology (which works almost exclusively with the theory of evolution), or more accurately a drug that isn't developed because everyone is working on their relationship with God.

When it comes to Creationism, or any aspect of Christianity that spills out over the boarders of personal belief and into areas that should be completely secular, such as science and education, that is when atheists become combative towards the subject, with a lot of justification because it effects people directly.

Christianity doesn't, unfortunately, exist in a vacuum, particularly in Ireland.

So Glad · 14-03-2007 12:04PM

Hmm....a lot of people are calling me an atheist here. I'm not an atheist! I believe in God, just not a Christian one. Just because I don't believe in creationism doesn't make me an atheist, c'mon now. . .

LFCFan · 14-03-2007 12:14PM

For those Creationists who believe that there actually was an Adam & Eve, would this not mean that the entire population of the world should be related to them? 1. This would mean we are all inbred and 2. Why is there so many different races if we all came from the same 2 people? I for one would be more inclined to believe that Man came to earth by way of a spaceship because someone else homeworld was destroyed and we are their way of maintaining their existance. I don't believe this but it's a hell of a lot more believeable then a Bearded man in the sky who wants us all to worship him or go to hell.

So Glad · 14-03-2007 12:33PM

LFCFan wrote:

For those Creationists who believe that there actually was an Adam & Eve, would this not mean that the entire population of the world should be related to them? 1. This would mean we are all inbred and 2. Why is there so many different races if we all came from the same 2 people? I for one would be more inclined to believe that Man came to earth by way of a spaceship because someone else homeworld was destroyed and we are their way of maintaining their existance. I don't believe this but it's a hell of a lot more believeable then a Bearded man in the sky who wants us all to worship him or go to hell.

Well, lots of religious text say that God's people came down from the heavens and seeded with humans to aid our evolution. Possible interstellar reference?

So Glad · 14-03-2007 12:36PM

Oh, by the way, I'm diggin' the poll results.

bonkey · 14-03-2007 01:09PM

Cantab. wrote:

There's nothing to "let them have", apart from their superior feeling that we are somehow "misguided, stupid, deluded etc."

It would seem you disapprove of such feelings of superiority being expressed.

How then do you explain the following comments:

You might as well just top yourself now.
...
If you fail to see this, I fear you have been somehow deluded or you have somehow deluded yourself.
...

To consciously deny the existence of God ... is akin to crawling on one's belly and eating dirt for the rest of your life. This you are guaranteed if you don't believe.

Is superiority limited to Christians?

And while I'm on teh subject, I'm curious as to why haven't you responded to my questions about your assertion that the world's non-Christian faithful are deluded?

So Glad · 14-03-2007 01:53PM

bonkey wrote:

And while I'm on teh subject, I'm curious as to why haven't you responded to my questions about your assertion that the world's non-Christian faithful are deluded?

I never liked that assumption. The very act of that assumption is seclusion among non-Christians and kind of aggressive, that was never Jesus' message.

Lets not forget, Jesus' message was for us to BE him, not praise him and put him on a pedestal. There are nicer Atheists about than Christians, it shouldn't be that way.

philologos · 14-03-2007 02:16PM

Jesus would have infact told us to be like him to atheists, etc so that we could show them the true Christian message through our actions. It's really not about arguing who is right and wrong, as we'll never be able to convince anybody like that.

Zombrex · 14-03-2007 02:22PM

So Glad wrote:

I never liked that assumption. The very act of that assumption is seclusion among non-Christians and kind of aggressive, that was never Jesus' message.

Lets not forget, Jesus' message was for us to BE him, not praise him and put him on a pedestal. There are nicer Atheists about than Christians, it shouldn't be that way.

While I admire your stance on this unfortunately the Bible itself provides more than enough choice quotes to back up Cantab's assertion, the most quoted one being -

Pslam 14:1
The fool says in his heart,
"There is no God."
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good.

What makes it worse is that "fool" here doesn't simply mean someone who is stupid, but someone who is morally deficient.

So Glad · 14-03-2007 03:08PM

Wicknight wrote:

While I admire your stance on this unfortunately the Bible itself provides more than enough choice quotes to back up Cantab's assertion, the most quoted one being -

Pslam 14:1
The fool says in his heart,
"There is no God."
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good.

What makes it worse is that "fool" here doesn't simply mean someone who is stupid, but someone who is morally deficient.

Thats all good and well, but morality and kindness doesn't automatically come into the human who says "I believe in God". Whats more the very people who preach these messages are sinners themselves, and of the serious kind. Priests raping children and other cases of people misusing their position.

LFCFan · 14-03-2007 03:21PM

The whole idea of religion and a God is so preposterous. It's amazing how the main religions all get their followers from a very early age when resistance is non existent. How many people here think Christianity would have as many followers if we were only to choose our religion (or choose not to have religion) once we reached the age of 18? It would have died out a long time ago. It's dying out anyway in countries like Ireland and you could say that religion is like a Gene as it is passed on from your parents but evolution has led to a decline as people become better educated and begin to think for themselves instead of having religion forced down their throat. It’s no coincidence that numbers going to church etc has fallen dramatically since the Church has lost so much of it’s power over the people.

So Glad · 14-03-2007 03:23PM

LFCFan wrote:

The whole idea of religion and a God is so preposterous. It's amazing how the main religions all get their followers from a very early age when resistance is non existent. How many people here think Christianity would have as many followers if we were only to choose our religion (or choose not to have religion) once we reached the age of 18? It would have died out a long time ago. It's dying out anyway in countries like Ireland and you could say that religion is like a Gene as it is passed on from your parents but evolution has led to a decline as people become better educated and begin to think for themselves instead of having religion forced down their throat. It’s no coincidence that numbers going to church etc has fallen dramatically since the Church has lost so much of it’s power over the people.

It's about time too.

Zombrex · 14-03-2007 04:19PM

So Glad wrote:

Thats all good and well, but morality and kindness doesn't automatically come into the human who says "I believe in God".

Oh I know. Being an atheist I don't think anyone gets morals from God since I don't think God exists. All morals, in my opinion, come from humanity itself.

My point was that Christianity teaches that those who have not accepted the religion are in some way morally defective. Which from a religious point of view makes sense if one assumes that one can only do good if one follows God, which is often a corner stone belief of religions in general, not just Christianity.

Of course a lot of Christians would not specifically believe this themselves, or would feel that even if that is true Christians should see past that and treat all as equals.

But it doesn't change the fact that this is what is taught by the religion and this can be seen even today reflected in the opinions of some Christians who assert, publically, that atheists lack moral substance since they don't believe in their God. The argument appears to be that since morality comes from God if one does not accept God they have no morality.

Not a day goes by without someone in the western media saying something along the lines of "What do atheists believe in? Nothing, thats what!" which gets rather tiresome since I'm an atheist would believes in lots of things.

So Glad · 14-03-2007 04:55PM

Wicknight wrote:

Oh I know. Being an atheist I don't think anyone gets morals from God since I don't think God exists. All morals, in my opinion, come from humanity itself.

My point was that Christianity teaches that those who have not accepted the religion are in some way morally defective. Which from a religious point of view makes sense if one assumes that one can only do good if one follows God, which is often a corner stone belief of religions in general, not just Christianity.

Of course a lot of Christians would not specifically believe this themselves, or would feel that even if that is true Christians should see past that and treat all as equals.

But it doesn't change the fact that this is what is taught by the religion and this can be seen even today reflected in the opinions of some Christians who assert, publically, that atheists lack moral substance since they don't believe in their God. The argument appears to be that since morality comes from God if one does not accept God they have no morality.

Not a day goes by without someone in the western media saying something along the lines of "What do atheists believe in? Nothing, thats what!" which gets rather tiresome since I'm an atheist would believes in lots of things.

Erm, why do Atheists get portrayed as careless, heartless and almost nihilistic? All of my friends and most of my family are firm Atheists/Agnostics yet I choose them as my friends because they are kind-hearted, accepting, wise thinking and fun loving. Such a stereotype being shown by the media, it is quite un-fair really.

bonkey · 14-03-2007 05:56PM

So Glad wrote:

Erm, why do Atheists get portrayed as careless, heartless and almost nihilistic?

Partially because the bible says they must be.

The thing to remember is its not a question of why Atheists get portrayed this way, but rather why they get portrayed this way by Christians.

Its also worth asking why atheists are often singled out amongst all the non-Christians for this scorn.

Cantab was willing to include all Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Wiccans, Zoroastrians, and other holders-of-belief in his condemnation....but I would maintain that he/she is an exception in this case.

Zombrex · 14-03-2007 05:58PM

So Glad wrote:

Erm, why do Atheists get portrayed as careless, heartless and almost nihilistic?

That is a complicated question. A few points off the top of my head -

Some theists (stress the some, not all) seem to think that atheism must be immoral since they are so wrapped up with the idea that their religion is the source of all morality and goodness in the world.

Some theists seem to believe that anything that is percieved to be counter their religion must be bad. Since atheism often goes hand in hand with secularism (though not always) this as seen as getting in the way of the perfect religious world. The amount of times I've heard that Satan is behind atheism to get religion out of school and science is unreal.

Some theists get uncomfortable with their beliefs being challenged, and view atheism in general as one big challenge. Often religious believers require others to believe to reaffirm that they are actually ok and correct in what they believe. This is the same way that often people are happy when others agree with their opinions on a movie or a book, and disappointed when people disagree.

At the end of the day there is probably no one reason. The fact that often the reason given (atheists don't believe in anything) is not the actual reason why people believe or choose to believe that atheists are immoral can make it difficult to get to the bottom of. It can be often a deeper fear of a position that runs counter to the comfort zone some theists have set up for themselves.

So Glad · 14-03-2007 06:10PM

Any Atheist/Agnostic could tell you to live the life that you've got. Live with respect to others, be kind in your daily life. Don't impose your will selfishly upon volatile people.

You don't need to be a Christian to care, nor a Muslim, nor Buddhist.

Why should I restrict myself in this lifetime when I should be enjoying every passing moment?

So Glad · 14-03-2007 06:18PM

Human evolution.

Zombrex · 14-03-2007 06:29PM

So Glad wrote:

Any Atheist/Agnostic could tell you to live the life that you've got.

Well one would hope so

The thing to remember about atheism or agnosticism is that they are more about what you don't believe than what you do. So one could have an atheists who is a serial killer and another who is a Noble prize winning peace activist. It is a point that is often lost on theists who like to bundle atheists all together and talk of atheism as a form of religion as if atheism teaches you any form of moral framework. This is normally followed by a comment along the lines of "Stalin was an atheists and killed millions of people". Of course Stalin didn't kill millions of people because he was an atheist, he killed millions of people because he was a Communists and communism teaches that religion is dangerous to the workers of the state. That is what he believed in (or at least is supposed to have believed in). No one believes in atheism.

The label "atheist" simply tells you what someone doesn't believe.

A far more interesting question, and one that is often ignored, is what the person does believe.

If you are interested pop over to the Atheist forum. I get a set of steak knives with every Christian I bring over!

Scofflaw · 14-03-2007 06:33PM

magicbastarder wrote:

i'm sure you'd find something better to do with your time.

Not based on the available evidence....

cordially,
Scofflaw

philologos · 14-03-2007 08:06PM

LFCFan wrote:

It’s no coincidence that numbers going to church etc has fallen dramatically since the Church has lost so much of it’s power over the people.

Thats interesting, but in which Church. My parish in particular is noting increases in those coming to services. The Evangelical Christian church is also prospering. I think you mean that the numbers partaking in Catholic churches is declining (and a lot of them are moving to different denominations). This is something that you need to be careful of when reading statistics on Christianity.

philologos · 14-03-2007 08:09PM

Oh and to bring this topic back on topic. Darwins theory on Evolution is just that, a theory. It requires the same amount of faith to believe in that than in Creationism. Thats my view on it anyway.

So Glad · 14-03-2007 08:15PM

Jakkass wrote:

Oh and to bring this topic back on topic. Darwins theory on Evolution is just that, a theory. It requires the same amount of faith to believe in that than in Creationism. Thats my view on it anyway.

Hahahaha, oh come on......just a "theory". Just a "theory" that has MOUNTAINS of credible evidence that would leave any logical person to conclude its existence. Thus why it is openly regarded as truth and thought in our schools to our children. Doesn't need ANY faith as it is PROVABLE and you can research this yourself.

Creationism is so because it was stated in a paragraph in a book, written by other people thousands of years ago, is not provable and rests solidly on a pedestal of faith. The two are completely different.

Don't gimme that sheeeee-ite.

Thomas_S_Hunterson · 14-03-2007 08:21PM

So Glad wrote:

Creationism is so because it was stated in a paragraph in a book, written by other people thousands of years ago, is not provable and rests solidly on a pedestal of faith. The two are completely different.

Well there are those thatwould argue that we are too complex to have come aout out of chance;)...

But to them i say don't be silly.

We aren't that complex, we've had a lot of time to evolve, and there are billions of places in the universe that we could have evolved, so really it is only inevitable that a race like us does evolve, and probably in more than one place in the universe

philologos · 14-03-2007 08:26PM

So Glad wrote:

Don't gimme that sheeeee-ite.

It is a theory. Give me one scrap of evidence of Evolution. Physical evidence that we evolved from slime to human form. I'd believe Creationism to that any day. The perfection of human kind and of the world around me is enough evidence for me to say that a God made us. A sophisticated lifeform does not come from slime.

sean_keevey wrote:

We aren't that complex, we've had a lot of time to evolve, and there are billions of places in the universe that we could have evolved, so really it is only inevitable that a race like us does evolve, and probably in more than one place in the universe

That is also a belief. You say that you believe in factual things. But nobody has and probably never will find any other lifeform in this universe.

So Glad wrote:

Hahahaha, oh come on......just a "theory". Just a "theory" that has MOUNTAINS of credible evidence that would leave any logical person to conclude its existence.

You can mock my beliefs, I'm 100% confident in them. How about if I put this to you. There are more than 1 billion Christians in this world, surely Creationism is credible if that many people believe? That many people find it to be credible, that argument could be used for anything.

Son Goku · 14-03-2007 08:40PM

Jakkass wrote:

You can mock my beliefs, I'm 100% confident in them. How about if I put this to you. There are more than 1 billion Christians in this world, surely Creationism is credible if that many people believe? That many people find it to be credible, that argument could be used for anything.

Most Christians aren't Creationist in the normal sense of the term.

Jakkass wrote:

It is a theory.

So is gravity.

Jakkass wrote:

Give me one scrap of evidence of Evolution. Physical evidence that we evolved from slime to human form. I'd believe Creationism to that any day. The perfection of human kind and of the world around me is enough evidence for me to say that a God made us. A sophisticated lifeform does not come from slime.

Evolution covers a very broad period of time, what part of Life's History do want evidence for?
Also things didn't come from "slime", the early Earth was supposed to be a highly volcanic place with a very electrically active atmosphere. There was no slime.

Also by Creationism do you mean 6-day creation 6,000 years ago or just that God created things.

philologos · 14-03-2007 08:44PM

God created the world with his own hands, thats exactly what I mean.

2 Peter 3:8 - But do not let this one {fact} escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

it could have been more than 6 days but it wasn't millions of years.

Thomas_S_Hunterson · 14-03-2007 08:55PM

Jakkass wrote:

it could have been more than 6 days but it wasn't millions of years.

I think the bible specifically says 6 days, and as the inspired word of god, well it couldn't be wrong could it??

I presume then that you ignore the substantial evidence that we humans have evolved from apes, namely the fact that we share I believe in the region of over 99% of our genetic code with them.

philologos · 14-03-2007 08:59PM

Read the piece I took from the writings of Peter, which is in the Bible.

sean_keevey wrote:

I presume then that you ignore the substantial evidence that we humans have evolved from apes, namely the fact that we share I believe in the region of over 99% of our genetic code with them.

God is a facinating being and He has created a facinating world, that is the way He intended it.

Any Creationists here?

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