Any Creationists here?

Talliesin · 13-03-2007 06:21PM

bonkey wrote:

I didn't say that it would suggest "therefore I am right". I said it would suggest only that "your proof is invalid". If we had DNA, it couldn't be hundreds of millions of years old. If its hundreds of millions of years old, we cannot have DNA. The two are mutually incompatible. If you prefer, there is no scientific model under which they two are not mutually incompatible.

Ah.

Sorry, I read that wrong.

You are right, DNA cannot survive that long.

Of course if it had survived that long it could be evidence that our knowledge of how long DNA can survive is wrong, so it wouldn't prove anything. Still there's no point arguing hypotheticals (a hypothetical world where DNA is found in trillobites is not the world that creationists and evolutionists debate its origins).

Cantab. · 13-03-2007 06:36PM

robindch wrote:

This is a point which is brought up frequently by religious believers, but as ever, the logic is stopped half-way -- if life is a joke because somebody does not believe there is a god, then why should it stop being a joke if somebody does believe there is one?

Belief in God is the basis to one's life: life is given a purpose, a meaning. Without God, there is no meaning whatsoever: It's a sad, cold, meaningless place that ends in ultimate misery. To consciously deny the existence of God by some cloud of logic and neverending scientific discovery is akin to crawling on one's belly and eating dirt for the rest of your life. This you are guaranteed if you don't believe.

robindch wrote:

Somebody as bright as you ought to have no trouble seeing the fairly obvious holes that Pascal's Wager has. As bonkey points out, as well as the possibility of a god which rewards unjustified belief, there could also be an infinite number of other gods which condemn it, or which might condemn you for justifying your belief upon a logical argument, when you're supposed to just believe. The risk of using Pascal's wager tends to infinity.

Well let's suppose for a second that there are several gods. Pascal's wager still applies: the risk of not choosing one and believing still tends to infinity. Pascal's wager is but a crude mechanism for getting non-believers to see the profoundness of the conscious decision they have made to deny the existence of God. Pascal's wager is not santioned by Rome.

I find it hard to believe that there could be an infinite number of Gods. Where is the evidence for this? If you could prove there were an infinite number of Gods, then yes, belief in any one of them would be pointless (as would disbelief).

If there is no mind directing the entire universe, then there is no universe, no totality. There is only a constantly fluctuating sum of individual entities, accidental in their very origin (since nobody brought them into being), purposeless (since nobody meant them for anything and accidents have no purpose), a drift of things drifting nowhere. Nothing can be known except out of its context, for there is no context.

Any more Creationists out there?

JimiTime · 13-03-2007 07:12PM

Cantab. wrote:

Any more Creationists out there?

Personally, I think this whole 'creationist' thing is another problem creeping into Christianity. Let evolutionary science be. It has no relevance. its another web that religion has tangled itself in. The fact is, that God created us. Whether that was in 7 days or 7 billion years, it really doesn't matter that much. Personally, I would recommend all Christians to ignore the atheist ramblings on evolution. Let them have it, let them feel we are decieved or misguided, or stupid or deluded or whatever. It really doesn't matter. They will have heard the Christian message and chosen to reject it. They know where to find it again if there is a change of heart. Bothering to argue with them, gives them credability. It invokes, the, 'what are christians trying to hide' type of thinking in some. IMO.

Cantab. · 13-03-2007 07:18PM

JimiTime wrote:

Personally, I think this whole 'creationist' thing is another problem creeping into Christianity. Let evolutionary science be. It has no relevance. its another web that religion has tangled itself in. The fact is, that God created us. Whether that was in 7 days or 7 billion years, it really doesn't matter that much. Personally, I would recommend all Christians to ignore the atheist ramblings on evolution. Let them have it, let them feel we are decieved or misguided, or stupid or deluded or whatever. It really doesn't matter. They will have heard the Christian message and chosen to reject it. They know where to find it again if there is a change of heart. Bothering to argue with them, gives them credability. It invokes, the, 'what are christians trying to hide' type of thinking in some. IMO.

Christians have nothing to fear about evolution. There's nothing to "let them have", apart from their superior feeling that we are somehow "misguided, stupid, deluded etc."

Son Goku · 13-03-2007 07:22PM

JimiTime wrote:

Let them have it, let them feel we are decieved or misguided, or stupid or deluded or whatever.

Sure most Christians aren't actually Creationist though and most atheists became familiar with evolution out of interest.
If there is one thing you should take away from the debates it is that evolution is not there so that we can attack Christianity, it's there because it's practical(for medicinal purposes, e.t.c.) and interesting from a scientific point of view.
You still seem to view science and atheism as a related "enemy".

Gordon · 13-03-2007 07:44PM

Cantab. wrote:

I find it hard to believe that there could be an infinite number of Gods. Where is the evidence for this? If you could prove there were an infinite number of Gods, then yes, belief in any one of them would be pointless (as would disbelief).

Where's the proof that there is one god? I haven't read the other thread so apologies if I missed it.

I think it's weird that people who believe in god and Jesus refer to non-believers as "walking on their bellies eating dirt". It's quite a disrespectful and demeaning phrase to people that, in the person saying that, shows a percentage of 'gods' children to be unevolved and inferior to other people. I thought that Jesus guy wanted us all to love each other.

Incidentally, on the dinosaur front, I recall hearing from a creationist that there actually are signs and proof of large, strange animals in the bible that they explain are actually dinosaurs. I can't find my source now but maybe someone can fill us in on that.

magicbastarder · 13-03-2007 07:48PM

all these christians must get seriously bored with all the rabid atheists who come in and insist they explain themselves.

find something else to do with your time, lads.

JimiTime · 13-03-2007 07:49PM

Son Goku wrote:

Sure most Christians aren't actually Creationist though and most atheists became familiar with evolution out of interest.
If there is one thing you should take away from the debates it is that evolution is not there so that we can attack Christianity, it's there because it's practical(for medicinal purposes, e.t.c.) and interesting from a scientific point of view.
You still seem to view science and atheism as a related "enemy".

My point had 2 parts. 1st one being that Christianity should keep its nose out of evolution. Secondly, evolution can be the stone in the atheist sling, and its usually used as the means to 'disprove' God, however wrong that is. Science or scientists don't bother me, what is bothering me is that Christendom has embroiled itself in a debate that really has little bearing on Christianity, yet has made people think that somehow it does.

philologos · 13-03-2007 07:50PM

I don't see why atheists in particular, continue to ask questions when they know we cannot prove it to them. We are not all knowing like our God is. However we believe that His word, gives us an accurate description of how our world was created. That is my belief, it may not be yours, but that's life right? All I can give to show you that the earth was created in that way is the account in Genesis.

Scofflaw · 13-03-2007 07:59PM

Jakkass wrote:

I don't see why atheists in particular, continue to ask questions when they know we cannot prove it to them. We are not all knowing like our God is. However we believe that His word, gives us an accurate description of how our world was created. That is my belief, it may not be yours, but that's life right? All I can give to show you that the earth was created in that way is the account in Genesis.

Which is fine...I have no disagreement with that belief - how could I?

However, an awful lot of creationists (most?) do not stop at that point. Instead, they claim that the science supports their position - and that's where I personally come into conflict with them, because they end up having to distort and misrepresent science in order to make that claim. That fight forms the majority of the 4900 posts on the other thread...

Belief is belief, science is science. Science is a tool for discovering material knowledge, not for discovering spiritual truths.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Cantab. · 13-03-2007 08:00PM

Yup. It appears that the "with it" alternative to organised religion of any kind is a nonchalent belief in the supremacy of humanity itself. Rationalists, make individuals and not God the center of everything. Asserting that: a lack of definite evidence for God's existence and the coincidence of religious belief with some psychological/social need proves that God does not exist, is plainly wrong because God is not constrained by man's limited knowledge and would not create beings contrary to his nature. God does not overwhelm the unwilling with his presence nor force his creation (man) to be in self-conflict when worshiping him.

Son Goku · 13-03-2007 08:02PM

JimiTime wrote:

My point had 2 parts. 1st one being that Christianity should keep its nose out of evolution. Secondly, evolution can be the stone in the atheist sling, and its usually used as the means to 'disprove' God, however wrong that is. Science or scientists don't bother me, what is bothering me is that Christendom has embroiled itself in a debate that really has little bearing on Christianity, yet has made people think that somehow it does.

Ah, grand.

Jakkass wrote:

I don't see why atheists in particular, continue to ask questions when they know we cannot prove it to them. We are not all knowing like our God is. However we believe that His word, gives us an accurate description of how our world was created. That is my belief, it may not be yours, but that's life right? All I can give to show you that the earth was created in that way is the account in Genesis.

magicbastarder wrote:

all these christians must get seriously bored with all the rabid atheists who come in and insist they explain themselves.

find something else to do with your time, lads.

If the forum was truly like this:
Christian #1:What do you guys think of Kings 1 verse.....
Christian #2:I think it shows...e.t.c........

Most of us wouldn't be here. Which is why you won't find us in threads like the Latin Mass one.

However there is an awful lot of "atheists are evil degenerates and not to be trusted". It's hard to avoid a thread like that. Imagine a thread like "Farmers/Scum what's the difference?", if you were a farmer you'd find it hard to avoid responding. When the amount of such threads and attitudes reaches critical mass you eventually get into the habit of debating everything Chrisitans say.

Which is bad for the Christians who just want to talk about their faith, I suppose.

Scofflaw · 13-03-2007 08:06PM

Cantab. wrote:

Belief in God is the basis to one's life: life is given a purpose, a meaning. Without God, there is no meaning whatsoever: It's a sad, cold, meaningless place that ends in ultimate misery. To consciously deny the existence of God by some cloud of logic and neverending scientific discovery is akin to crawling on one's belly and eating dirt for the rest of your life. This you are guaranteed if you don't believe.

I think the majority of humanity find their lives meaningful. Most do it by reference to some God (but mostly not the Christian God), some don't.

You pays your money and you takes your choice - and some respect that, some don't.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Cantab. · 13-03-2007 08:09PM

Scofflaw wrote:

Belief is belief, science is science. Science is a tool for discovering material knowledge, not for discovering spiritual truths.

Science complements spiritual truth. It is too simplistic to separate the two absolutely. All science comes from God, therefore you can find God in scientific discovery, whether it's looking at the moon at night or observing particles in a particle accelerator.

Scofflaw · 13-03-2007 08:14PM

Cantab. wrote:

Science complements spiritual truth. It is too simplistic to separate the two absolutely. All science comes from God, therefore you can find God in scientific discovery, whether it's looking at the moon at night or observing particles in a particle accelerator.

Sure - but science is not there to confirm or deny spiritual truth.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Call Me Jimmy · 13-03-2007 08:41PM

Taking for example islam and christianity, I find it extremely coincidental that both were created seperately yet both have a god and a big book of 'his word'. Does that not get to anyone else?

Off Topic: I'm surpised that cantab hasn't been banned, he's spewing some pretty offensive crap. How about I say all religious people are wasting their time? That they are dogs? That's right - banned.

dr.bollocko · 13-03-2007 08:56PM

Cantab. wrote:

Science complements spiritual truth. It is too simplistic to separate the two absolutely. All science comes from God, therefore you can find God in scientific discovery, whether it's looking at the moon at night or observing particles in a particle accelerator.

Why would religion be so self-admiring to assume that God is above or somehow creates science as opposed to another way around?
How can God, an essentially living creature, be shoe-horned in as some cosmic re-balancer, the x in every missed equation from evolution and the perfect re-balancing argument to all the toughest questions in life?

It starts to become a ridiculous argument, when you view the passion with which we make misguided judgements.

I mean the numerous fallback and circular arguments are too long to mention. Arguments which act to confuse the issues, muddy the waters, and when viewed by interested parties are all you need, but when really looked at, are just as circular as "Cos god said so."

Cantab. wrote:

Without God, there is no meaning whatsoever: It's a sad, cold, meaningless place that ends in ultimate misery. To consciously deny the existence of God by some cloud of logic and neverending scientific discovery is akin to crawling on one's belly and eating dirt for the rest of your life. This you are guaranteed if you don't believe..

Now there's a cold volley of rhetoric in the face for those who dare to question. A warning you could even call it.
But those who dare to question dont need to know an answer.
Your answers are looking like a pretty thin veil hiding a huge flaw in your argument. Its nice how omnipotence can balance every equation for you.
But you have no idea of its scope, or of any force currently acting against it, or any way in which to balance an argument scientifically which includes a deity theory. Oh but thats right, you dont have to.... the bible says....

Cantab. wrote:

Christians have nothing to fear about evolution. There's nothing to "let them have", apart from their superior feeling that we are somehow "misguided, stupid, deluded etc."

So who has what superior feeling about the other side being somehow deluded?

Nobody can hope to argue against what you are saying when you refuse to acknowledge, even hypothetically, an alternative to the "Science, the world and everything comes from God" stance that you have taken to.

Sofaspud · 13-03-2007 09:52PM

Cantab. wrote:

Belief in God is the basis to one's life: life is given a purpose, a meaning. Without God, there is no meaning whatsoever: It's a sad, cold, meaningless place that ends in ultimate misery. To consciously deny the existence of God by some cloud of logic and neverending scientific discovery is akin to crawling on one's belly and eating dirt for the rest of your life. This you are guaranteed if you don't believe.

So basically, the whole point of your life is to dedicate it to grovelling to this invisible sky-beastie? Does your own enjoyment come into it at all, or does sky-man allow his petty grovelling servants to have enjoyment of their own?

Personally, I'd prefer not to dedicate my entire life to something that demands that I spend my entire life grovelling and sucking up to it, lest I BURN for an ETERNITY. Sky-beastie-man seems to be a bit of a bully, in fairness.

I live my life the way I want to live it, while trying not to ruin other peoples enjoyment of their lives. This way, I get what I can from my life, as much enjoyment as I morally allow myself to have, respecting others, and giving love only to those who deserve it, not demand it.

philologos · 13-03-2007 10:14PM

Sofaspud wrote:

So basically, the whole point of your life is to dedicate it to grovelling to this invisible sky-beastie? Does your own enjoyment come into it at all, or does sky-man allow his petty grovelling servants to have enjoyment of their own?

He made the earth so that we could enjoy it. He saved the Israelites from the Egyptians. He set down the Law, and the Gospels, so that we could live in harmony and in peace. He told us to enjoy his creation, which can be done while being obedient to his Law, and to the rules layed down by Jesus Christ. Infact God wants us to have a positive relationship with all around us and our world, so yes our own enjoyment does come into this. Invisible, sky-beastie, hmm. Except for the fact, that God has created us in His own image, and there is a bit of God in the hearts of all Christians, Jews and Muslims. By following his Law, we ensure that all humankind can enjoy his world.

dr.bollocko · 13-03-2007 10:20PM

Jakkass wrote:

He made the earth so that we could enjoy it. He saved the Israelites from the Egyptians. He set down the Law, and the Gospels, so that we could live in harmony and in peace. He told us to enjoy his creation, which can be done while being obedient to his Law, and to the rules layed down by Jesus Christ. Infact God wants us to have a positive relationship with all around us and our world, so yes our own enjoyment does come into this. Invisible, sky-beastie, hmm. Except for the fact, that God has created us in His own image, and there is a bit of God in the hearts of all Christians, Jews and Muslims. By following his Law, we ensure that all humankind can enjoy his world.

Prove any of that.

And kindly leave me out of your glee club if this rhetoric and the psuedo science misused on this thread have anything to do with how you and God are gonna save the world together. Posts like the one Cantab made, referenced above my myself and sofaspud are frankly offensive to non-believers in christianity, athiests or other denominations.

philologos · 13-03-2007 10:26PM

I've already explained that I cannot prove it to you, as you have no understanding of the faith we have with God.

dr.bollocko · 13-03-2007 10:28PM

I apologise for the "prove it" comment. I was being trite, as I felt you also were being in your post.
I have respect for your beliefs of course.
But what you market as an inclusive belief welcoming of science often seems nothing more than a series of glaring omissions or miscalculations with the word God filling in all the blank spaces.

Sofaspud · 13-03-2007 10:35PM

Jakkass wrote:

He made the earth so that we could enjoy it. He saved the Israelites from the Egyptians. He set down the Law, and the Gospels, so that we could live in harmony and in peace. He told us to enjoy his creation, which can be done while being obedient to his Law, and to the rules layed down by Jesus Christ. Infact God wants us to have a positive relationship with all around us and our world, so yes our own enjoyment does come into this. Invisible, sky-beastie, hmm. Except for the fact, that God has created us in His own image, and there is a bit of God in the hearts of all Christians, Jews and Muslims. By following his Law, we ensure that all humankind can enjoy his world.

I can understand this as your belief, but I was directing my post at Cantab, who seems to think that without God life is meaningless and no enjoyment can be derived from our time here without blind faith to God.

I'm agnostic, so I don't know whether or not there is a higher being of some sort, but if there is I'm not sure if it would be a christian god or not.
To me, organised religion is something that's forced onto people by their environments or cultures. As somebody already pointed out, if you were born in a country where Islam is the primary faith, you would most likely be Islamic, if your parents were Jewish, you would be Jewish. Why believe in the christian god any more than you do Zeus or that Scientologist ash-chap? Do you worship Mohammed or Allah? These are worshipped by many, so why rule them out?

philologos · 13-03-2007 10:39PM

I infact have a copy of the Qu'ran. I decided to read it. I'm in the process of reading the Bible from the start to finish, I found the Bible more convincing and I believe that the events in the Bible happened, whereas the hadith of Islam can be rather dodgy into the history of the faith, whereas with Christianity the history of the faith is part of the main scripture. I ruled them out for a reason, I have felt God's presence moreso than the God's of Hinduism and the Buddha of Buddhism. Not saying that I'm not open to read their religious texts, infact I would easily since I'm confident of my own beliefs now. I infact even doubted it for a lot of my teenage years, i'm 18 next month, but I've come to a consensus in my mind and through my own experience that God exists and as such created our world. I'm largely discovering parts of the Bible that I have never read before, and it is merely strengthening my faith rather than making it weaker. This would be the reason why I find Christianity more convincing than the other faiths.

Sofaspud · 13-03-2007 10:44PM

Jakkass wrote:

I infact have a copy of the Qu'ran. I decided to read it. I'm in the process of reading the Bible from the start to finish, I found the Bible more convincing and I believe that the events in the Bible happened, whereas the hadith of Islam can be rather dodgy into the history of the faith, whereas with Christianity the history of the faith is part of the main scripture. I ruled them out for a reason, I have felt God's presence moreso than the God's of Hinduism and the Buddha of Buddhism. Not saying that I'm not open to read their religious texts, infact I would easily since I'm confident of my own beliefs now. I infact even doubted it for a lot of my teenage years, i'm 18 next month, but I've come to a consensus in my mind and through my own experience that God exists and as such created our world. I'm largely discovering parts of the Bible that I have never read before, and it is merely strengthening my faith rather than making it weaker. This would be the reason why I find Christianity more convincing than the other faiths.

You are one of the very few who have actually researched other faiths and have a reason to believe. I find that most simply accept that they are christian because they were told so, and live their life that way because of it.

po0k · 13-03-2007 11:18PM

Dinosaurs.

Carbon-14.

magicbastarder · 13-03-2007 11:19PM

Son Goku wrote:

If the forum was truly like this:
Christian #1:What do you guys think of Kings 1 verse.....
Christian #2:I think it shows...e.t.c........

Most of us wouldn't be here. Which is why you won't find us in threads like the Latin Mass one.

However there is an awful lot of "atheists are evil degenerates and not to be trusted". It's hard to avoid a thread like that. Imagine a thread like "Farmers/Scum what's the difference?", if you were a farmer you'd find it hard to avoid responding. When the amount of such threads and attitudes reaches critical mass you eventually get into the habit of debating everything Chrisitans say.

Which is bad for the Christians who just want to talk about their faith, I suppose.

it's not hard to avoid responding to, just as (i assume) you don't post to white power message boards, challenging racism.
and this thread is not an example of atheists rushing into a thread started by a christian decrying atheism, it's an example of a non-creationist coming into a christian forum with a "prove yourselves to me" attitude, knowing he's not going to get the answers he seeks.

it's not necessarily this thread to which i object, it's just a minor example of the combative nature atheism has taken over the last few years, with dawkins as its high priest. pun intended.

Son Goku · 14-03-2007 12:15AM

magicbastarder wrote:

it's not hard to avoid responding to, just as (i assume) you don't post to white power message boards, challenging racism.

Yeah, but as I said, it's due to being here a while. Most of us started off on the Creationist thread only and then noticed this attitude. The white-power comparison isn't analogous. It isn't the same as purposfully attempting to find a forum which disagrees with you. It's finding a very extreme viewpoint that a lot regular Christians hold towards atheism. boards.ie is a normal/mainstream site and yet you have this completely random view possesed by a lot of our religious posters, who express the view that we're degenerates concerned only with ourselves.

magicbastarder wrote:

it's not necessarily this thread to which i object, it's just a minor example of the combative nature atheism has taken over the last few years, with dawkins as its high priest. pun intended.

Eh, yeah. Not speaking out at all has recently gone to one guy writing a book and making a documentary. I mean what next? Two documentaries?

Even look at your example, they say we're morally corrupt and when we try to refute that we're "Whiners". Basically if you say I'm a moral degenerate, then you don't get to call me "rabid" when I ask you to explain yourself.

robindch · 14-03-2007 01:00AM

> Belief in God is the basis to one's life: life is given a purpose, a meaning.
> Without God, there is no meaning whatsoever: It's a sad, cold, meaningless
> place that ends in ultimate misery.

You have restated your belief that life is meaningless without a deity, but you haven't said *why* that's the case which is the interesting question that I'd like to understand the answer to.

> To consciously deny the existence of God by some cloud of logic and
> neverending scientific discovery is akin to crawling on one's belly and
> eating dirt for the rest of your life. This you are guaranteed if you don't believe.

You have conflated belief-in-the-existence-of with denial-of-existence-of and they're two quite separate things. I don't deny the existence of the deity that you assert exists any more than I deny the existence of Thor, Allah or the easter bunny. I do, however, believe, without asserting, that none of these claimed entities exist. And, for the life of me, I can't understand why or how my life can acquire "meaning" in any reasonable sense of the word simply by acquiring or declaring a belief in the existence of anything.

In fact, when you boil the question of "meaning" down, you will find that it becomes rather elusive. Unless the deity selectively and proactively provides meaning only to people who believe that the deity exists, then the "meaning" acquired by a religious belief must be supplied by the belief itself and not the deity. And even if your own specific deity selectively and proactively provides this meaning, then there must exist multiple deities with similar attributes, since most believers-in-deities report that their belief provides "meaning" (ignoring the possibility that deities will provide each other's flock with meaning; teleological cross-pollination, so to speak). In either case, meaning is acquired from the belief and not from the deity and consequently, the existence of the deity is unimportant since meaning can be acquired without it.

Hence, the question of the acquisition of "meaning" is one which bears examination and the only conclusion that I've been able to come to is that it seems to be completely meaningless, so I'd appreciate some input from somebody who's acquired this meaning -- hence restating the question up above.

Scofflaw · 14-03-2007 01:02AM

magicbastarder wrote:

it's not hard to avoid responding to, just as (i assume) you don't post to white power message boards, challenging racism.
and this thread is not an example of atheists rushing into a thread started by a christian decrying atheism, it's an example of a non-creationist coming into a christian forum with a "prove yourselves to me" attitude, knowing he's not going to get the answers he seeks.

Hmm. He may not be a creationist, but he's not an atheist:

So Glad wrote:

I'm not an atheist, I believe in a God that forged this universe BUT I don't think that happened 6,000 years ago, and for good reasons.

magicbastarder wrote:

it's not necessarily this thread to which i object, it's just a minor example of the combative nature atheism has taken over the last few years, with dawkins as its high priest. pun intended.

You know, if I was black, I probably would post on white power boards. Clever pun, that one.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Any Creationists here?

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