Which Wood Pellet Boiler and which solar panels?

blackbarney · 28-01-2007 1:09pm #1

I've been checking wood pellet boilers for a new 2,600 sq feet two storey concrete built house and finding it difficult to decide on which wood pellet boiler to choose... there are so many out there!! I've considered the Gerkros Woodpecker - can anyone recommend them? I've the same question regarding solar panels. Thanks.

probe · 29-01-2007 6:34pm

Good question.

The answer to which you should be able to find easily and accurately on www.sei.ie. Answers to questions such as yours should be staring one in the face, directly from their home page.

This is a government agency funded to provide information on “green” energy alternatives.

They should provide test results on the alternatives on the market, and publish them on their website. Do it themselves, or outsource it, or a combination of both. Or buy the research.

Most people don’t want to wade through zillions of documents to come to basic household planning / design decisions.

People just want drillable down, hard facts on the various alternatives:

1) What is available on the market in each type of renewable energy technology – up to the minute data.
2) A rough indication of the scale of the investment required in typical homes e.g. 100, 200 and 300 M2.
3) The performance of the product – capital cost, cost per kWh delivered of energy, and practical issues such as fuel storage requirements, where the raw material comes from, supplier directory with website links, reliability, maintenance, “plug and play ease of use”, estimated life cycle, raw energy input inflation trends, etc (all data indicative, without commitment, without government guarantee, provided on a “best efforts” basis)

Similar data for various forms of thermal insulation is also required as a matter of urgency in a country building almost 100,000 new houses every year. Amory Lovins has a house in Snowmass, CO where outside temperatures can reach -44C in winter and he has virtually no heating in the house because it is so well insulated. During the worst blizzards, he might burn a few papers to increase the temperature, and because the house is so well insulated (eg 30 cm of foam thickness in the roof and Krypton gas double glazing [equivalent to 14 panes of glass!]), he doesn’t need “central heating”. The capital cost of this was fractional compared with his potential annual energy bills. If one can survive in comfort in the Colorado mountains in winter with almost zero heating, no house in temperate Ireland requires heating – other than efficient waste energy recovery from cooking, dishwashing, showers, etc. http://www.sciam.com/media/pdf/Lovinsforweb.pdf

Performance data is readily available for cars – virtually any car magazine can generally tell one the 0-100 km/h acceleration time, cc engine capacity, kW engine power, or fuel consumption and price of virtually every vehicle on the market to facilitate the car purchase decision process. All presented in a consistent format.

Why should people have to spend hours doing their own research on these key green issues? Wading through inconsistently presented (if any) information coming from a variety of sources ranging from “chancers” to seriously committed suppliers with well engineered solutions.

Why are we paying the highest salaries in Europe to these civil servants to run sei.ie, if they don’t do the job required, and provide a user-friendly, useful, service that helps build the alternative energy industry by providing information to interested parties?

The sei.ie website should also be open to user experiences for product rating and blog style comments. All organised so that when you drill through the choices and are considering whether to use x or y brands, any consumer feedback provided is there to see for those products.

One would then end up with an intelligently presented summary for each renewable energy alternative, the capital cost, running cost, and user reliability feedback which would make an excellent starting point for making decisions, and which would develop confidence in and the quality of renewable energy products.

As it stands, Ireland is one of the top polluters on the planet per capita, has huge financial resources within government and in private hands to correct the problem, and is achieving zero results! Aside from the minor detail of Ireland’s 90% energy dependence on imported energy, much of which comes from flaky, unstable, unreliable sources.

It is an information management issue – the marketplace will take care of most of the rest. Energy is the most urgent issue confronting the state, aside from the health service.

Most of the energy waste in Ireland is caused by PROPERTY.
- location and access (getting to and from the place), proximity to public transport (incompetent planning)
- insulation and energy consumption of buildings
- the absence of serious, competitive broadband internet connectivity (100 Mbits/sec+ everywhere) to reduce the need to get to/from locations to perform information based tasks.
- the energy consumed in the obsolete and non-renewable construction materials and processes in the building industry.

.probe

JosephQ · 30-01-2007 8:54pm

Probe have you not thought about running for office as you have some brilliant ideas there. Do you also think that renewable fuels, energy efficent boilers and insulstion should all be free of vat

boomshackala · 01-02-2007 1:12am

blackbarney wrote:

I've been checking wood pellet boilers for a new 2,600 sq feet two storey concrete built house and finding it difficult to decide on which wood pellet boiler to choose... there are so many out there!! I've considered the Gerkros Woodpecker - can anyone recommend them? I've the same question regarding solar panels. Thanks.

My tuppence worth;
I would use the combined money I had to spend on both systems to buy one decent pellet boiler, as;
Cheap pellet boilers like Gerkros are making alot of hopeful owners unhappy
and
solar pushes out the payback on the primary heat source, so you end up with the worst of all worlds;
Bad performance
A lot of money spent
Longer payback
More controls

Okofen, Froling, KWB are worth looking at among others

ednwireland · 01-02-2007 10:36am

probe great post the sei is a joke i rang all the local installers on their list for woodpellet stoves and most dont commission stoves (or boilers for that matter) and you have to get another guy to do the flue gas analysis to sign off the installation sheet.
and dont get me started on the house assessment its a complete joke when builders can get there houses signed off from plan and i bet theres no checks afterwards to ensure compliance.

blackbarney · 03-02-2007 2:27am

Thanks guys but not really much the wiser.

boomshackala - thanks for the list of good boilers. I still think the solar panels make sense to buy. The problem is there seems to be a lot of people happy enough with Gerkros...?

Anyway will search this site futher for more opinions. This site will have good, bad and ugly opinions about everything... one bad experience in 100 is shared with many.

Thanks anyway guys.

WOWFACTOR · 10-02-2007 9:41pm

I think you're dead right!!

kyote00 · 13-02-2007 10:21pm

I have been looking into solar for a number of months (>6) now and the figures dont stack up for me....that is what figures I can get from either sei or suppliers.

Assuming that you are trying to reduce your oil/gas consumption by switching to solar.....The basic issues to note with Solar are

1) most of the oil consumption in a house goes towards central heating (rather than hot water for washing etc) --- in my house about 70% of the cost of our annual bill occurs during the winter period

2) solar will generate max heat/water during the summer months --- when it is not really needed. In winter there is not enough hot water to maintain a full days heating

1) and 2) add up to a system that is not really impacting the low hanging fruit....

So frustrated by both the lack of detailed technical info and high cost -- I have been working on a home made system as follows:
- a number of solar panels charge an array of car batteries.
- 'battery pack' is connected thro an inverter to provide heating (timer controlled) and lighting (2x6w low energy lights)

My test system has been working well most days in garage providing light and low grade dehumidifer...

Cuauhtemoc · 14-02-2007 11:05am

2) solar will generate max heat/water during the summer months --- when it is not really needed. In winter there is not enough hot water to maintain a full days heating

I don't know about this. I'd use just as much hot water during the summer as the winter. More maybe.

kyote00 · 14-02-2007 2:19pm

Cuauhtemoc:
This would mean that your oil bills are the same during the summer and winter ? Is this the case ?
on average during the winter, how long do you have your central heating on per day and then compare this to the summertime -- surely you turn down the heating in the summer ?

GG66 · 15-02-2007 12:57am

A properly sized solar tube set up should provide 70% of hot water needs during summer for showers etc. Forget about space heating. This is where your pellet boiler comes in during the winter.

Back to topic, which product?

I looked into lots. I went with a Viadrus boiler and solar tubes from energymaster.

Reason without being technical: Cost of boiler was not prohibitive €6500, it's cast iron (lasts longer according to my plumber uncle) with a ten year guarantee.

Best price for solar tubes I got, €4250 for 54 tubes and 300ltr cylinder. They're from China (which made me nervous) but there is a guarantee from Energymaster.

I know they're making a big mark up as all they do is import it, deliver it, and commission it. you need your own plumber. Can't say that makes them a lot different to most suppliers.

Only installing now so too early to tell. After I'd bought it I came across a Baxi multi fuel boiler being sold by heatmerchants. It burns different size pellets so you're not limited to wood pellets and possible supply shortage price increase. ASAIK you can also burn grain..

If you're looking for someone who's been in the business for a long time (a lot longer than the grants) and knows his stuff try www.solarenergyireland.com Couldn't meet my timeframe for delivery so lost out.

Another option I would seriously consider it it was available when choosing is coretech from airoption. http://www.airoption.com/Products_Heating.html Underfloor electric heating powered by a wind turbine...probably the most eco friendly option out there IMHO

Cuauhtemoc · 15-02-2007 10:53am

This would mean that your oil bills are the same during the summer and winter ? Is this the case ?
on average during the winter, how long do you have your central heating on per day and then compare this to the summertime -- surely you turn down the heating in the summer ?

Can't say about this yet as we're still working on the house. Just that i'd use just as much hot water during the summer but i'd hope most of it will be free and the oil/pellet or electric can top it up.
Wouldn't reallly have any heating on in summer at all.

C.

CJhaughey · 15-02-2007 11:27am

kyote00 wrote:

I have been looking into solar for a number of months (>6) now and the figures dont stack up for me....that is what figures I can get from either sei or suppliers.

Assuming that you are trying to reduce your oil/gas consumption by switching to solar.....The basic issues to note with Solar are

1) most of the oil consumption in a house goes towards central heating (rather than hot water for washing etc) --- in my house about 70% of the cost of our annual bill occurs during the winter period

2) solar will generate max heat/water during the summer months --- when it is not really needed. In winter there is not enough hot water to maintain a full days heating

.

Our experience is that 6.3m2 of flat panel solar collectors supplied 100% of our DHW demands from March to October last year.
I had the system commissioned in March ad we moved in not long after, I also installed the immersion element at the same time but didn't have it connected to the ESB until late October.
During this time the water in the 500l tank sometimes reached 80 deg c but usually averaged around 60 deg.
Our experience was that the mixing valve which mixes cold water with the Solar heated water effectively made the 500l of hot water @60 more like 750l at 45deg C.
We have small children and there is no way we would have water hotter than 45 coming out of the taps.
Cuauhtemoc is correct we use most of our hot water in the summer when being active outside means more sweat, dirty children and more entertaining meaning more dirty dishes all of which use hot water.
Our heating is Electrical UFH which is around 9kw for the entire house, This runs on Night storage rate and is not expensive to run.

Biglad · 22-02-2007 10:29pm

Hi There,

I've spend a lot of time searching for the right pellet burner and I ended up with a Mescoli CB28. We have this burner up and running for three weeks now and so far so good. No blocked auger, no blow-back's etc.
I also considdered the WoodPecker, and I know a lot of people that have one...
Then there was Baxi, Froeling, Dor, Scotte, you name it.

Our house is a 2 story, 2500sqft, new build with garage. The pellets are stored in the roof space over the garage.

I liked the Mescoli because it is a robust well build Unit with a clear Display that keeps you informed all the time. The Day Hopper of 400KG is big enough to keep you going for more then a week. Mescoli has been in the Wood Burner business since 1962 and it shows. Most newcomers have issues with the Self Ignition systems, auger design etc.

Be carefull about how and where you are going to store your pellets.

Good luck on your choice.

Westford · 27-02-2007 10:25am

a Mescoli CB28. We have this burner up and running for three weeks now and so far so good.

Biglad.....what the latest on the Mescoli. Was looking at the various options at the recent self-build show in Belfast. The Mescoli certainly looks like a well put together boiler. To the eye, it looks like it's in a totally different class to the Gerkros After a couple of months, do you think the Mescoil is still a good option. Does your boiler have a buffer/header tank, or is it plumbed directly to the hot water cylinder?

hillwalker · 07-03-2007 10:26pm

Please, please, whatever you do, do NOT buy a pellet burner. They are one of the most expensive forms of heating you can buy in spite of what anyone tells you. I have a KWB crap which costs €17-18 an day to run a 5 bed house for a modest demand. 2 x 25kg bags of pellets at least per day in winter - at €8.2 a bag. I'm cutting my losses and taking it out to put oil back in which was less than half the price.
Be warned!

Westford · 08-03-2007 9:50am

At €8.20 per 25kg bag.....that would be €382 per tonne.
I'm not sure of the current prices for bulk, but the seem to range from €160 to €250 per tonne. Being able to get & store bulk pellets, at the right price, seems to be the key to making the system feasible. Do you mind me asking what area your house is, and what KW rating is/was your boiler. Apart from the running costs, were you happy with the performance of the boiler. Is it your only heating source?

hillwalker · 08-03-2007 2:12pm

The boiler is 30kw. The house is actually in Cumbria, England. I spend half the year here and half in my home town of Athlone. The prices were in pounds but I changed to euros for the thread. I wanted to install a new oil boiler last October but was persuaded to install this rubbish with assurance that it would be cheaper than oil. It cost £10000. The installers are quite a big firm here and I've instructed solicitors to recover costs of getting rid of the burner (massive) the buffer and the hot water cylinder and installing new oil combi boiler on the grounds that I was misled and misrepresented. Also, solicitor thinks I have a good case for unserviceable goods as the thing kept breaking down/malfunctioning.

2.4 kg of pellets produces the same energy as 1 ltr of oil. 2.4 kg of pellets at prices here would be 51 pence inc. vat. 1 litre of oil is 28 pence inc. vat. I rest my case.

The heating was reasonably efficient when working but there again, no more effiecient than the 28 year old oil boiler I took out.
In the handbook it says you empty the ashbox 1 - 4 times a year. If you go to KWB site it says every 1 to 5 weeks.
So, my friend, if you haven't already bought one - take my advice and avoid it like the plague, it's nothing more than a con. If it goes wrong are you sure they have the expertise to fix it? I asked the 'engineer' who fitted mine why it produced a large amount of hard clinker - and he didn't know. Forget about pollution, the bit a pellet burner saves is a pinprick to what USA/India/China produces

Chimpster · 08-03-2007 3:16pm

hillwalker wrote:

The boiler is 30kw. The house is actually in Cumbria, England. I spend half the year here and half in my home town of Athlone. The prices were in pounds but I changed to euros for the thread. I wanted to install a new oil boiler last October but was persuaded to install this rubbish with assurance that it would be cheaper than oil. It cost £10000. The installers are quite a big firm here and I've instructed solicitors to recover costs of getting rid of the burner (massive) the buffer and the hot water cylinder and installing new oil combi boiler on the grounds that I was misled and misrepresented. Also, solicitor thinks I have a good case for unserviceable goods as the thing kept breaking down/malfunctioning.

2.4 kg of pellets produces the same energy as 1 ltr of oil. 2.4 kg of pellets at prices here would be 51 pence inc. vat. 1 litre of oil is 28 pence inc. vat. I rest my case.

The heating was reasonably efficient when working but there again, no more effiecient than the 28 year old oil boiler I took out.
In the handbook it says you empty the ashbox 1 - 4 times a year. If you go to KWB site it says every 1 to 5 weeks.
So, my friend, if you haven't already bought one - take my advice and avoid it like the plague, it's nothing more than a con. If it goes wrong are you sure they have the expertise to fix it? I asked the 'engineer' who fitted mine why it produced a large amount of hard clinker - and he didn't know. Forget about pollution, the bit a pellet burner saves is a pinprick to what USA/India/China produces

2 problems here...

Your pellets are way too expensive and you are burning way too many pellets.

You should be able to source bulk pellets for around €170 per tonne. Build your own silo or buy a silo. Even bagged pellets can be purchased for €230 per tonne here.

You say you are burning 50kg of pellets a day? Thats massive, either your boiler is not commissioned correctly or your pellets are of a very low quality.
I have no experience of KWB boilers but a 30KW Kedco boiler running for 6 hours a day burns about 25kg-30Kg of pellets. The boiler should not be not be running 100% at all times, it should modulate itself once it has heated the water to the required temperature and run at a lower rate eg 40% hence using less pellets. The ash pan should be cleaned out fortnightly and the heat exchangers brushed about 3/4 times a year to keep efficiency.

By the way, is your house well insulated?

hillwalker · 08-03-2007 10:36pm

I hear waht you say Chimpster, trouble is, I've had them out to it time and time again, even the guy who did courses in Austria and afraid I've lost faith in it and just want to see the back of it before I come home in May. I usually put tenants in but I'm afraid they would baulk at paying all that. If I win the lottery I'll take a big hammer to it - or you can have it if you remove:D .
The house is a big 3-bed detached with a 2 bed attached cottage, all beautifully modernised. Nobody lives in the cottage and I just run the heating for an hour in the mornings and evenings at 14c to keep the cold off. I use the cottage bathroom cos it's a super big bath and you can turn the taps on with your toes, but the rooms and kitchen are never used except when the missus is cooking Christmas dinner. It's well insulated, the last tenants were over 60 and we took advantage of cheap insulation for pensioners:cool:
I wish I could get pellets as cheap as you say, where are you might I ask?

kerrymaninld · 13-03-2007 11:13am

KWB reputation is second to none, training facilities typically get KWB gear because their products are an example of how to build these things right.
They are right up there with Windhager, Froeling, and Heizomat - in fact I havent come across a bad boiler manufacturer from Austria yet.

I suspect that your issues are a combination of

1. You bought the thing from a bunch of cowboys
2. Your fuel supply is poor and is probably wetter than advertised on the bags. This could be down to where it is being stored in the retailers and/or where you are storing it yourself.

ircoha · 18-03-2007 8:52pm

It seems there is a problem with the quality of pellets in Europe because demand is now exceeding supply so our enterprising 'friends' from eastern europe have got in on the act and are adding sand and sawdust to the pellets- hence the problem of clinker and high usage. Counterfeit pellets so to speak.

Duncan S was at the gig over the weekend in the RDS and , as well as the above, he was advocating that if going pellets that u sign a 5 to 10 year contract with your supplier before u go pellet boiler.sounds like the pellet industry has the same issues as when double glazing came out first, the 10 year g/tee from a 10 minute company.

Rathlynin · 20-03-2007 5:54pm

The Austrian & German boilers like Froeling & KWB are ok but the prices are crazy...I'd go for a Scottie,Opop or Gerkros or something in that price bracket...once installed properly they are as reliable as any

Chimpster · 20-03-2007 11:21pm

Rathlynin wrote:

The Austrian & German boilers like Froeling & KWB are ok but the prices are crazy...I'd go for a Scottie,Opop or Gerkros or something in that price bracket...once installed properly they are as reliable as any

I have commissioned a few Kedco/OPOP boilers, a friend of mine has a Kedco agency. They are a pretty decent boiler in my opinion and are priced very reasonable. You do have to empty the ash pan out every 2/3 weeks and give it the odd clean but other wise it works just fine... Hard to justify spending twice the money on a boiler that does very little extra.

ircoha, thats an interesting point you have raised on contaminated pellets. They wont be long blocking up the grate of a boiler I can tell you. The pellets burn away and the sand gets left behind leaving a solid lump of clinker over a few days.

clockend · 30-03-2007 10:43am

For people considering buying a woodpellet boiler, please be very carefull what you buy and more importantly, who you buy from. Last summer i bought a baxi from heatmechants. Big, big mistake. The boiler has been generally good, but what little teething problems i encountered were a nightmare to sort out because heatmerchants basically dont want to know. It took a solicitors letter to get them to do something. Now my boiler is on the fritz again. small problem again probably but....yes you guessed it, after a week of ignoring my calls. the dreaded solicitor has been called into action again. Avoid these cowboys.

hillwalker · 30-03-2007 9:04pm

Just had the pellet burner removed and a new low-emmision ol boiler installed. Hell of a difference in efficiency and running costs. The engineer/commisioning agent showed me proof that the carbon emmisions on the oil boiler is less than those on the pellet burner. Something to think about eh? Don't fall for the con trick. Off for a pint, be good:)

TopMan · 09-10-2007 10:22pm

I see where gerkros have made great strides lately in upgrading the quality of their boiler, compared to the huge hulk of a thing they had two years ago. the digital display gives great information and makes using it a sinch !
I recently got their service agreement and am going for the digital upgrade to my18 month old boiler.

FutureEnergy · 09-10-2007 10:41pm

TopMan wrote:

I see where gerkros have made great strides lately in upgrading the quality of their boiler, compared to the huge hulk of a thing they had two years ago. the digital display gives great information and makes using it a sinch !
I recently got their service agreement and am going for the digital upgrade to my18 month old boiler.

I've seen the service agreement and while its pretty impressive do you not feel pi€€ed off that they are selling you something that should have been standard on that boiler in the first place. In my opinion Gerkros nearly killed off the WPB industry in this country by releasing a beta boiler into the market. They are improving things now but serious damage had been done.

TopMan · 18-10-2007 10:33pm

I'm still glad I went with a Gerkros in the first place as they stand by their product. A mate of mine went for a Froling boiler last year and they wanted crazy money to send someone from Austria or Germany over when the boielr was down because the Irish agent couldn't give a toss when there was a problem. A lot of agents are not around to see this winter after trying to make the quick buck last year !!

cjmurray · 04-11-2007 2:35pm

Anyone else got any experience of Kedco? We're thinking of getting an 11kW Kedco Ecoidro (E3780 plus E850 installation; grant E1800), but my partner is concerned that it's Italian-built/engineered and may not last as long as German or Austrian systems (The Ecoidro only has a two-year warranty).

okofen · 14-11-2007 2:08am

hello all, im a new guy. i just want to make a few comments about wood pellet?i am sick of people moaning about the problems they have encountered with there pellet boilers. the reasons why your having problems is because you have either bought an inferior product.ie not fully modulating, not self cleaning.not fully automatic. and or you have bought it frome someone that just wants to make a quick buck.and or you havent bought proper bulk storage to store and recieve pellets in bulk..
you can not try and build a box to store pellets are insulate a room in an attic in your shed to store the pellets. this wont work long term.

the only way to buy a wood pellet boiler , is to buy it from a company that will design your heating system, ie heating zones,dhw zones etc, supply .ie boiler,fabricated silo,insulated twin wall flue,draught stabiliser, pump stations,
auger delivery or vacum delivery,controller and fully install inc commisioning and guarantee faultless operation. the only boilers we should be installing are the no 1 boilers in europe and the ones that have recieved awards in there field.....
biomass ie pellet is the only fuel that is all of these,sustainsable,renewable and co2 neutral.geothermal is not sustainable or renewable or co2 neutral ,are most efficient esb stations in ireland are only 35% efficient , that means the power coming out of your socket is only 35% efficient, as opposed to the no 1 pellet boilers in europe which are 95%efficient. i wouldnt want to rely on electricity to heat my house.

biomass is the way forward.if you are considering wood pellet,put in the market leaders and buy from a reputable company that have been around a long time.

regards

Which Wood Pellet Boiler and which solar panels?

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