US accuse Iran of supplying bombs to Shiite militants in Iraq.

nacho libre · 14-02-2007 12:04PM

RedPlanet wrote:

I can't understand why anyone would believe just about anything the Bush administration says today.
But being the case that there are people who do, and i caught a glimpse on the tely of a couple mortars displaying a date of "2007"; it makes me wonder why nobody thought of questioning this so called "evidence".
Iran is an islamic state and observes the Islamic calender, which of course means it's not "2007" there, so i just have to doubt they'd put that year on the holy mortars they manufacture. :rolleyes:

"HOW LUCKY FOR THE US MEDIA THAT THIS BOMB SUPPOSEDLY MADE IN IRAN BEARS ENGLISH MARKINGS

Also, Iran gets its weapons, including mortars, from Russia. Russian mortars do NOT use 81MM rounds! They use 82mm.

AND, Modern Iran uses a solar Hijri calendar that is 621 years less than the Western solar calendar, so if this munition were really made in Iran. the date should read 1384 or 1385 (Their new year starts in March). The letters in the center appear to be "HE". "High Explosive" is a common catagory of mortar shell. But "High Explosive" is English, not Farsi.

The bovine excrement meter just exploded in flames. (But the steel frame is still standing.)

Hobbes · 14-02-2007 12:30PM

Something I noticed this story is distracting from is that around 8 billion in US taxpayers cash of the 12 billion restructing funds is gone and totally unaccounted for. Whats even amazing is that no one is being held accountable for it.

Jimboo_Jones · 14-02-2007 02:13PM

AbusesToilets wrote:

The US has played it's political games in the past, no doubt about it and i'm not a big fan of their often short-sighted approach to international relations.

It's strange how when its America in Nicaragua and Afghanistan etc its just a game, yet anyone else its state sponsored terrorism.

I personally believe that there will be elemnets in Iran that are helping Shi'ite 'insurgents'. (and I bet that they have been supplying the Shi'ite's long before America invaded Iraq) It's just a matter of who it is, and high up the chain they are. I would hazzard a guess that the top brass may be awear of it, but are willing to turn a blind eye to it.

I heard someone talking about the missing money from Iraq, he was saying that they didn't have a procurement procedure in place and did not have the time to go through setting one up. They basically they where throwing cash at the problem hoping to get a series of 'quick wins' and soon as possible. I think its more a case of zero forward planning than anything sinister....though I expect that some of that money probably ended up in the hands of the very people America are now fighting.

Manic Moran · 14-02-2007 04:37PM

nacho libre wrote:

"HOW LUCKY FOR THE US MEDIA THAT THIS BOMB SUPPOSEDLY MADE IN IRAN BEARS ENGLISH MARKINGS

Also, Iran gets its weapons, including mortars, from Russia. Russian mortars do NOT use 81MM rounds! They use 82mm.

AND, Modern Iran uses a solar Hijri calendar that is 621 years less than the Western solar calendar, so if this munition were really made in Iran. the date should read 1384 or 1385 (Their new year starts in March). The letters in the center appear to be "HE". "High Explosive" is a common catagory of mortar shell. But "High Explosive" is English, not Farsi.

The bovine excrement meter just exploded in flames. (But the steel frame is still standing.)

DIO Standard these days. Iran manufactures munitions for export and follows the same generic international marking conventions for interoperability. That way a North Korean troop (for example) can read the information off a Russian round as easily as an Iranian one. Three different alphabets, let alone three different languages.

Secondly, Iran does have 81mm mortars. If you haven't noticed, Iran has a fair bit of Western equipment in its inventory.

Thirdly, even if Iran didn't have 81mm mortars, there's no reason the Iranian munitions industry shouldn't build them: The former Warsaw Pact industries offer artillery in 155mm, for example, even though they use 152mm, and the Israelis have 100mm and 125mm tank ammunition available for export, even though they use 105mm and 120mm.

NTM

Akrasia · 14-02-2007 05:12PM

Hobbes wrote:

Something I noticed this story is distracting from is that around 8 billion in US taxpayers cash of the 12 billion restructing funds is gone and totally unaccounted for. Whats even amazing is that no one is being held accountable for it.

But at least they're not as bad as the U.N. because some of that oil for food money went missing.... man, the U.N. (entire rest of the world) are corrupt assholes. Why should the U.S. listen to them?

Sponge Bob · 14-02-2007 05:12PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6359971.stm

ranian bombing 'kills 11 people'
Bus hit by bomb attack
The bus carrying Revolutionary Guards was gutted in the attack
Eleven people have been killed in a bomb blast near a bus in city of Zahedan in south-eastern Iran, the official Irna news agency has reported.

The bomb, hidden in a car, targeted members of Iran's Revolutionary Guard, the agency said, although it is unclear if all the dead belonged to the guard.

Qassim Rezai, a military commander, described the act as "terrorism" and blamed "rebels".

Recent attacks have been blamed on the Sunni Jundallah (Allah's Brigade).

Correspondents say an attack of this size and nature is unprecedented in Iran - hitting an elite force in daylight in an open street.

Reports say suspects behind the bombing have been arrested.

Iran map

The city of Zahedan lies in the province of Sistan-Baluchestan, which borders both Afghanistan and Pakistan.

It has been hit by a string of attacks and kidnappings blamed on the hardline Sunni group called Jundallah.

Iranian officials have accused Britain and the United States of supporting ethnic minority rebels operating in the Islamic republic's sensitive border areas.

Remote control

Zahedan has been the focus of low-level unrest, with several security force members being killed in the last two months.

Fars news agency says a small car overtook the bus and then stopped in front of it, the occupants saying it had broken down.

They were then picked up by motorcycles and taken away before the bomb planted in the car exploded, apparently triggered by remote control.

A precise casualty number has been difficult to establish. The Iranian Red Crescent said only eight complete bodies had been recovered.

"The bandits and the agents of insecurity in this criminal act put a bomb near the bus and martyred these people," Mr Rezai said.

Irna said five suspects were arrested, including two suspects apprehended by members of the public.

The city lies in the province of Sistan-Baluchestan, which borders both Afghanistan and Pakistan.

It has been hit by a string of attacks and kidnappings blamed on the hardline Sunni group called Jundallah.

Uhh uh Ooops !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jundallah

Jundallah
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jundullah (Army of Allah) (Urdu: جنداللہ) is a militant group reportedly based in Waziristan, NWFP, Pakistan. It may have links with Al-Qaeda.

The militant Sunni group operates inside Iran's southeastern border. The group poses a threat to the country's Shi'ite clerical regime, which already faces a crisis with the West over its nuclear ambitions. The Iranian government has accused the United States of supporting the Sunni group as a destabilizing element against Ahmadinejad's regime. The Jundallah deny any link with the United States. The Iranian branch is believed to have emerged on the scene in 2003 and it is known for attention grabbing attacks against high profile Iranian targets, especially government and security officials. The leader is thought to be named Abdulmalak Rigi In a May telephone interview with Rooz, (Iranian online newspaper)¹, Rigi defended Jundallah's use of violence as a just means to defend Baluch and Sunni Muslim interests in Iran and to draw attention to the bad economic situation of the Baluch people whom he describes as Iran's poorest.

Dunno if the yanks would touch a franchise based in waziristan, save with laser guided ordnance.

Hobbes · 14-02-2007 05:41PM

Manic Moran wrote:

Secondly, Iran does have 81mm mortars. If you haven't noticed, Iran has a fair bit of Western equipment in its inventory.

Actually saw a story that pointed out that Pakistan manufactured 81mm mortar rounds and that it came from there. However further checking I also found out that Iran does in fact manufacture these rounds as well.

However how would you know the rounds came from Iran? Is there a particular code that should be on them?

Akrasia wrote:

But at least they're not as bad as the U.N. because some of that oil for food money went missing.... man, the U.N. (entire rest of the world) are corrupt assholes. Why should the U.S. listen to them?

I am not talking about the UN, and as far as the O4F program went it has nothing to do with US taxpayers and instead private corporations profiteering.

Seriously how could someone from the US not be outraged that this money is for all intents and purposes is stolen. I watched the Senate hearing on it, the excuse given was "Well the Iraqis don't have any good book-keepers". You would think the US would track its own money.

InFront · 14-02-2007 05:58PM

Just a bit of an update.

BBC News Link to article

President Bush has insisted a branch of Iran's Revolutionary Guards is linked to some attacks on US troops in Iraq...

Unnamed US officials in Baghdad said at the weekend that the "highest levels" of the Iranian government were supplying weapons to Shia militants in Iraq.

But top uniformed personnel - including the highest-ranking US military officer, General Peter Pace - have refused to confirm that accusation in recent days.

Mr Bush said Iran's al-Quds Force - a branch of the Revolutionary Guards charged with exporting the Iranian revolution - was the source of the weapons.

But he said he did not know who was giving them their orders.

"I don't think we know who picked up the phone and said to the Quds Force: 'Go do this.'"

The Revolutionary Guards report to Iran's Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

Mr Bush denied he was attempting to provoke Iran, insisting he was only seeking to protect US troops.

He also appeared to suggest there was no point in talking directly to Iran at the present time.

"If I thought we could achieve success, I would sit down with Iran," he said.

But he insisted Tehran must "have a verifiable suspension" of its alleged nuclear weapons programme before the US would engage in direct talks.

How can Iran verify suspension of a nuclear weapons programme it is adament does not exist?
If that's not possible, and he won't talk otherise, then surely talks are not possible?

Manic Moran · 14-02-2007 06:13PM

Hobbes wrote:

However how would you know the rounds came from Iran? Is there a particular code that should be on them?

A Batch Identity Code (commonly if inaccurately referred to as a lot number) starts off with two or three alphanumerics which identifies the manufacturer (By plant, not by company). In the case of the 81mm bombs displayed, the code is AZ. I don't know what plant that code is assigned to, I'll see if I can find out. It seems identification is also being based on the style of shipping containter, which is apparently unique to a known Iranian one, not just on the numbers.

NTM

AbusesToilets · 14-02-2007 08:16PM

Wasn't able to get on to the site last night so apologies if this is a bit out of place

Your argument style begins badly. The first sentence is considered a 'strawman'. Israel is the country who has made the most combative statements against Iran, not the other way around. Israel is the nuclear power, it is also the one holding an entire population as prisoners, it is responsible for the deaths of over 1000 people in Lebanon last year alone. Iran may be ran by an oppressive regime, but it is not the regional aggressor.

Lets not forget who stands behind Israel.

First i was given an example of how my opinion of the situation differs from yours when presented with the same info.Secondly,i haven't read any statements form Israel where they have called for Iran as a state to be wiped out/disappear,however you want to play with the language.Israel also didn't initiate the war with Lebanon,Hezbollah did.The Israeli military prosecuted the war as best they could.Did civilians die because of Israeli attacks?Yes.Did they deliberately target them,set out with the singular express goal of killing innocent people? No.They attacked targets that were present in built up urban areas,where Hezbollah chose to fight because this presented them with the best method of countering Israels superior military might.Meanwhile Hezbollah launched thousands of unguided rockets into Israeli towns,also killing many civilians.Which is the greater evil? Well that's for you're own biases to decide.

You waste an awful lot of time with this cut and paste too. Towards the end of the latest Israeli invasion of Lebanon, cars and buses loaded with fleeing civilians were bombed by Israelis, the constant media stream drew attention not to this, but to the fact arms were coming in from Iran and Syria. Again, weapons were flowing in through Scotland on their way to the IDF, but this was not news. The fact is, we are led to believe, the menace of 'official enemies' is greater than that posed by 'our allies'.

I'm sorry to waste your time,i didn't realize there were time constraints to be considered when posting here. It's not a strawman argument to say that i am worried at the prospect of an oppressive regime with a history of supplying and supporting terrorist regimes and which is run by religious extremists acquiring nuclear power.This at a time when it has become increasing vocal about it's desire to see another country erased from existence.Israel has contracts with the US and other countries to supply it arms,nothing new or shocking with that,or that in a time of war they might need a resupply.Last time i checked Hezbollah isn't a legitimate representative of a country and wasn't out negotiating contracts with companies for supply of weapons.They get them smuggled in from places like Iran or Syria,or just take them form the Lebanese army itself.That's the difference,country doing business versus terrorist group smuggling arms.

InFront · 14-02-2007 09:10PM

AbusesToilets wrote:

i haven't read any statements form Israel where they have called for Iran as a state to be wiped out/disappear,however you want to play with the language.

They'd have a bit of cheek. An artificial country not even sixty years old calling for removing the statehood of another state... oh, wait.
Israel? Remember how before that was called "The Arab Territory of the Ottoman Empire"? That's of an example of Israel actually wiping it out, not talking about it.

Israel also didn't initiate the war with Lebanon,Hezbollah did.

We can talk about this forever, but lets just accept that it comes down to opinion and personal bias, which you seem to have as much as anyone else.

Did civilians die because of Israeli attacks?Yes.Did they deliberately target them,set out with the singular express goal of killing innocent people? No.

Israel dropping cluster bombs on civilians... were not expecting civilians to die? How can you back up this kind of thing? There's also an interesting article on israeli use of 'Dimes' here

I am worried at the prospect of an oppressive regime with a history of supplying and supporting terrorist regimes and which is run by religious extremists acquiring nuclear power.

Aren't we all... but what can you do, you just can't change American politics overnight.

Last time i checked Hezbollah isn't a legitimate representative of a country

They are a valid political movement. Hizbollah runs hospitals, schools, orphanages and welfare services. Part of its huge popularity in Lebanon is from the facilities it provides that is often better than what the Government there can provide.
Why do you say illegitimate? Do you believe in democracy?

Hobbes · 14-02-2007 09:13PM

nuclear power != nuclear weapons.

To my knowledge so far of the situation Iran has been pretty much open on what they are doing, where as Israel actually faked their control reactor room so they could illegally make nuclear weapons.

Last time i checked Hezbollah isn't a legitimate representative of a country

If I recall correctly they are actually in parts of the government of Lebanon. Voted in too.

tbh trying to argue which side is the good guys is a bit silly when it comes to the middle east. Israel are as almost as bad as some of the repressive regimes. Only difference is they do it mainly to non-Jewish people.

btw the "Wiped out" statement has already been debunked earlier in the thread.

Manic Moran · 14-02-2007 09:22PM

Hobbes wrote:

If I recall correctly they are actually in parts of the government of Lebanon. Voted in too.

Since SF is in the Dail, does that mean that they can negotiate arms imports for themselves instead of allowing the designated national representatives (i.e. Ministers of Defence and Foreign Affairs) to do it?

(Talk about a thread hijack)

NTM

AbusesToilets · 14-02-2007 09:47PM

InFront wrote:

They'd have a bit of cheek. An artificial country not even sixty years old calling for removing the statehood of another state... oh, wait.
Israel? Remember how before that was called "The Arab Territory of the Ottoman Empire"? That's of an example of Israel actually wiping it out, not talking about it.

We can talk about this forever, but lets just accept that it comes down to opinion and personal bias, which you seem to have as much as anyone else.

I've admitted before that i would be more biased towards Israel than Hezbollah .I'm really not sure what your point above is talking about? Before the state of Israel you had the British run Palestine and before that it was part of the Ottoman empire

Israel dropping cluster bombs on civilians... were not expecting civilians to die? How can you back up this kind of thing? There's also an interesting article on israeli use of 'Dimes' here

Like i said what was the proportion of indiscriminate strikes in the war between the 2 sides on civilian populaces?I think even you would have to admit that it errs quite strongly on the side of Hezbollah

Aren't we all... but what can you do, you just can't change American politics overnight

.

Cute,nice sidestepping of the point

They are a valid political movement. Hizbollah runs hospitals, schools, orphanages and welfare services. Part of its huge popularity in Lebanon is from the facilities it provides that is often better than what the Government there can provide.
Why do you say illegitimate? Do you believe in democracy?

I say illegitimate because it's not a case of the Lebanese government going to Iran and Syria and buying weapons under the auspices of supplying it's legally constituted military.It's a case of Hezbollah smuggling in weapons to fund and equip it's illegal army which is responsible for attacking Israel and starting the conflict.We can debate our feelings on the rights and wrongs of the situation but you can't get away from the fact that Hezbollah initiated the attack,not the Lebanese military,Hezbollah.Does that sound like democracy at work to you?Where do you think Hezbollah gets a lot of it's money to run these facilities from?Iran maybe? :eek:

Ping Chow Chi · 14-02-2007 10:01PM

AbusesToilets wrote:

Like i said what was the proportion of indiscriminate strikes in the war between the 2 sides on civilian populaces?I think even you would have to admit that it errs quite strongly on the side of Hezbollah

...and yet Hezbollah killed mainly army people and israel, with its MUCH more acurate weaponry killed mainly civilians ....strange that.

AbusesToilets · 14-02-2007 10:17PM

Ping Chow Chi wrote:

...and yet Hezbollah killed mainly army people and israel, with its MUCH more acurate weaponry killed mainly civilians ....strange that.

Looking at the table below,it's clear that there are many conflicting sources that went into it's tabulation.I would put it to you that the reason that there were less Israeli civilian casualties is the availability of better quality healthcare,and that the majority of those Israeli military personnel were killed in Lebanon in course of conducting missions.Whereas the main effort of Hezbollah rocket attacks were against cities in Israel.The fact that the majority of fighting in Lebanon was conducted in or around urban areas contributed to the higher levels of civilian deaths.Hezbollah chose that battleground as it offered it the best opportunities to counter Israels military superiority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict

Casualties of involved parties
Entity Civilian Military
Amal Movement 17 dead[1]
Hezbollah ~250 reported by Hezbollah [2], 500+ reported by IDF[3], 500 estimated by UN official[4], 440 identified by Israel and up to 700 estimated by Amidror[5]More than 700 claimed by Lebanese sources [6]
Flag of Israel Israel 44 dead [7][8]
1,489 wounded [9] 119 dead [7][8] including at least one US citizen[10]
~400 wounded[11][12]
Flag of Lebanon Lebanon 1,187 dead
3,600 wounded[13][14][15][16][17][18] 46 dead
~100 wounded
PFLP-GC 2 dead [19]
Flag of United Nations UN 2 dead 4 dead
12 wounded. See main article
Total 1,233+ dead
5,089+ wounded 438-888+ dead
512+ wounded

InFront · 14-02-2007 10:30PM

I'm really not sure what your point above is talking about? Before the state of Israel you had the British run Palestine and before that it was part of the Ottoman empire

My point is the destruction of the Arab/ Palestinian territory - much of which is now realistically unquestionably in the hands of Zionists. They have since wiped more Palestinian territory "off the map" in their unending passion for Lebensraum.
You had stated that Israel don't want to wipe Iran off the map - that's exactly what Israel have done to Palestinians of the former Arab state.

Like i said what was the proportion of indiscriminate strikes in the war between the 2 sides on civilian populaces?

I'm not sure what your argument is, are you suggesting that Israelis targeted only Hizbollah and not civilians?. I hope this clears it up for you. Also http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/24/isrlpa13798.htm

I would put it to you that the reason that there were less Israeli civilian casualties is... etc etc ad infinitum

No. Because they chose civilians.

Hezbollah initiated the attack,not the Lebanese military

That's your second time to say this, so I don't see why it should just be let pass. It's incorrect. You know it is incorrect. Ultimately what this war was, was a costume rehearsal for what Israel would like to happen in Iran. Israel holds thousands of Palestinians held prisoner in Israeli dungeons... then the Lebanese take a few on Arab soil and... "they started it"???

Where do you think Hezbollah gets a lot of it's money to run these facilities from?Iran maybe?

why not? i presume you have a problem with Israel getting protection from the USA? Can you actually explain this at all?

I hven't even read that wikipedia thing you're after quoting because I don;t think wikipedia should be brought into it. If you want to compare civilian deaths in a believable way, use a credible source.

FYI · 14-02-2007 10:39PM

We have been over most of this before.

AbusesToilets wrote:

i haven't read any statements form Israel where they have called for Iran as a state to be wiped out/disappear

"ISRAEL has warned that it is prepared to take unilateral military action against Iran if the international community fails to stop any development of nuclear weapons at the country’s atomic energy facilities."

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=1292472003

AbusesToilets wrote:

Israel also didn't initiate the war with Lebanon,Hezbollah did.

Hezbollah conducted a raid within disputed territories and captured Israeli soldiers. Something Israel does regularly. Definitely not a declaration of war.

AbusesToilets wrote:

The Israeli military prosecuted the war as best they could.Did civilians die because of Israeli attacks?Yes.Did they deliberately target them,set out with the singular express goal of killing innocent people? No.

"Israeli forces have systematically failed to distinguish between combatants and civilians in their military campaign against Hezbollah in Lebanon, Human Rights Watch said in report released today. The pattern of attacks in more than 20 cases investigated by Human Rights Watch researchers in Lebanon indicates that the failures cannot be dismissed as mere accidents and cannot be blamed on wrongful Hezbollah practices. In some cases, these attacks constitute war crimes."

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08/02/lebano13902.htm

AbusesToilets wrote:

They attacked targets that were present in built up urban areas,where Hezbollah chose to fight because this presented them with the best method of countering Israels superior military might.

"Human Rights Watch found no cases in which Hezbollah deliberately used civilians as shields to protect them from retaliatory IDF attack...[more]"

http://hrw.org/reports/2006/lebanon0806/2.htm

AbusesToilets wrote:

This at a time when it has become increasing vocal about it's desire to see another country erased from existence.

I addressed this earlier, no need to repeat it.

AbusesToilets wrote:

Israel has contracts with the US and other countries to supply it arms,nothing new or shocking with that,or that in a time of war they might need a resupply.

It is shocking if those weapons are used indiscriminately in the invasion of a country:

"In the conflict to date, there is evidence that Israel has used cluster munitions in populated areas in Lebanon and that Hezbollah has launched rockets containing thousands of metal ball bearings towards Israeli towns and cities. Human Rights Watch is of the view that neither weapon should be used in or near civilian areas as a matter of international law, because the wide blast effects of these weapons cannot be directed at military targets without imposing a substantial risk of civilian harm and the weapons cannot distinguish between military targets and civilians."

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/17/lebano13748.htm#14

AbusesToilets wrote:

I'm sorry to waste your time,i didn't realize there were time constraints to be considered when posting here.

We have been over nearly all these issues before, you have chosen to ignore all this information.

marco murphy · 14-02-2007 10:42PM

The Israeli military prosecuted the war as best they could.Did civilians die because of Israeli attacks?Yes.Did they deliberately target them,set out with the singular express goal of killing innocent people? No.

Ill give you one word, Qana.

Hobbes · 14-02-2007 10:43PM

any chance this thread can wander back on topic?

InFront · 14-02-2007 10:51PM

Well it's sort of related. Many people believe that what happened in Lebanon is set to happen again in Iran. It's not an unreasonable prediction.

But yeah, Iraq... apparently "Operation Law and Order" is "now underway". Just now, eh, bit late!?

marco murphy · 14-02-2007 11:07PM

I've been reading different forums here and there, dealing with the Iranian Army.
I have mixed reactions. But I don't think an army of 12m is anything to laugh at.

AbusesToilets · 14-02-2007 11:15PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbusesToilets
i haven't read any statements form Israel where they have called for Iran as a state to be wiped out/disappear

"ISRAEL has warned that it is prepared to take unilateral military action
against Iran if the international community fails to stop any development of nuclear weapons at the country’s atomic energy facilities."

There's a bit different wouldn't you say?Israel said it would take steps to remove Irans nuclear capabilites,not erase it from existance.

Quote:
I'm really not sure what your point above is talking about? Before the state of Israel you had the British run Palestine and before that it was part of the Ottoman empire
My point is the destruction of the Arab/ Palestinian territory - much of which is now realistically unquestionably in the hands of Zionists. They have since wiped more Palestinian territory "off the map" in their unending passion for Lebensraum.
You had stated that Israel don't want to wipe Iran off the map - that's exactly what Israel have done to Palestinians of the former Arab state.

The British were in charge of Palestine and after the end of WW2 the UN proposed a 2 state solution,which was dismissed by the Arabs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine
"Soon after World War II, the British decided to leave Palestine. The United Nations attempted to solve the dispute by putting forward the 1947 UN Partition Plan, dividing the land area between the two populations, on November 29, 1947; the Jewish Agency accepted the plan, while the Palestinian Arabs, along with their allies elsewhere in the Arab world, rejected it as inadequate. The Arab-Jewish fighting within Palestine escalated to full-scale war right after the UN partition plan was approved, and on May 14, 1948, the Jewish population declared independence as the state of Israel. The armies of Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria then invaded, but did not succeed even in holding onto much of the areas reserved in the UN partition plan for the Arab state. (For a more detailed account, see 1948 Arab-Israeli War). Large numbers of Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from their homes during the fighting and to this day most have not been allowed to return (see Palestinian exodus). Israel managed to maintain its independence and even expand its borders, but a new refugee problem, this one of Palestinian Arabs, was created, and was compounded by Jewish exodus from Arab lands."

Quote:
I would put it to you that the reason that there were less Israeli civilian casualties is... etc etc ad infinitum
No. Because they chose civilians.

Quote:
Hezbollah initiated the attack,not the Lebanese military
That's your second time to say this, so I don't see why it should just be let pass. It's incorrect. You know it is incorrect. Ultimately what this war was, was a costume rehearsal for what Israel would like to happen in Iran. Israel holds thousands of Palestinians held prisoner in Israeli dungeons... then the Lebanese take a few on Arab soil and... "they started it"???

Quote:
Where do you think Hezbollah gets a lot of it's money to run these facilities from?Iran maybe?
why not? i presume you have a problem with Israel getting protection from the USA? Can you actually explain this at all?

I hven't even read that wikipedia thing you're after quoting because I don;t think wikipedia should be brought into it. If you want to compare civilian deaths in a believable way, use a credible source.

First off you're wrong about Hezbollah not starting the conflict,they did.They attacked Israeli positions and kidnapped a soldier(s?),looking to provoke a response.Lebanon isn't Palestine,it's a seperate state and your continued intertwining of the 2 is diversionary.Hezbollah is concerned primarily with Lebanon,not with the Palestinians and their cause.I think you're letting your dislike of Israel lead you into the realm of fantasy with a statement like this "Ultimately what this war was, was a costume rehearsal for what Israel would like to happen in Iran"
I don't agree with the amount of money the US gives to Israel but the difference is that Israel is a country and Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation that undermines the activities of the government of Lebanon to further it's own goals.

My point about the proportionality of civilian casualties in the conflict is that Hezbollah targeted built up urban areas for attack with unguided rockets.Israel killed civilians in the course of it's operations but it's did so while attempting to mitigate the possibility of them occuring, by more precise targeting and announcing impending strikes beforehand to warn people living in the area.Hezbollah made no such effort.Was the death of innocents deplorable? Yes,in both instances.But Hezbollah initiated the conflict,knowing full well what Israel was likely to do and then chose to fight in urban areas,increasing the likelyhood of civilian casualties.It all played out to Hezbollahs advantage,as they hoped it would.Israel failed to defeat them and killed civilians in the course of their efforts which did much to enhance their cause.

marco murphy · 14-02-2007 11:33PM

First off you're wrong about Hezbollah not starting the conflict,they did.They attacked Israeli positions and kidnapped a soldier(s?),looking to provoke a response.

Regardless if we take that preposterous statement to be true, does that in any way justify the immoral and illegal actions of Israel.

Dropping 100,000 cluster bombs on civilian areas and using internationally banned weapons

Killing 47 children in one attack

Specifically targetting ambulances, several ambulances were bombed right in the middle of the red cross

Hezbullah defended themselves against an invasion by israeli forces were the civilian toll on israeli side was nothing in comparison to the carnage done by the illegal state of genocidal maniacs of Israel. Israel committed the worst attrocities of the 21st century in this conflict.
They have no morals, and no justification, even today in the western world no sane person could even consider israel wasn't immoral and heinous in their actions, they were simply blood thirsty.

AbusesToilets · 14-02-2007 11:51PM

There's nothing preposterous about it,that's how the conflict started.I'm not pulling it out of my ass.
And while you're busy throwing about various exaggerations on the nature of Israeli attacks you might stop and consider that for all Hezbollahs claims of concern for the Lebanese people it deliberately started a war it knew Israel would prosecute in the manner that it eventually did.
And just to bring this thread slightly back on topic,the reason i believe that there is Iranian support to Iraqi Shi'ite militias is because of their history of doing likewise in Lebanon.Also the increased levels of attacks by Shi'ite militias came at a time when Iran was actively pursuing it's nuclear goals.Thusly having the US embroiled in an increasingly violent fight in Iraq meant it wouldn't be able to take the hardline approach against Iran that it might otherwise be likely to adopt.

marco murphy · 14-02-2007 11:58PM

Ridiculous. Where were you that summer and what are your sources?
Stop watching Fox news. And familiar yourself even the conservative newspapers didnt dare defend israel this summer.

The US was actively supported saddam to kill iranians financially and through intelligence, and today they've made the biggest mistake ever. apart from the fact that they're invasion and occupation has left 600,000 civilians dead, they've united iraqis and iranians.

What reason does Israel have for bombing EVERY major bridge in Lebanon?
And military barracks where engineers worked? along with bombing paperbox factories, milk factories?

Facts dont seem to be part of the equation for you.
White phosphorus + 100,000 cluster bombs! Are admitted facts by the israeli government.

AbusesToilets · 15-02-2007 12:22AM

Here's the link but i think you need a subscription to view it: http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/world/2006/0720/1152913471349.html

Eight days of war

July 12th: Hizbollah guerrillas capture two Israeli soldiers and kill up to eight. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert calls it an "act of war" by Lebanon.

July 13th: Israeli aircraft bomb runways at Beirut's Rafik al-Hariri International Airport. Israel's navy blockades Lebanese ports.

July 14th: Israeli planes blast the main Beirut-Damascus highway, tightening an air, sea and land blockade of Lebanon.

July 15th: Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora demands an immediate UN-backed ceasefire, denouncing Israel for turning his country into a "disaster zone".

He appeals for foreign aid. An Israeli missile in southern Lebanon kills 20, including 15 children.

July 16th: Rockets fired by Hizbullah kill eight in the Israeli city of Haifa. Israeli Prime Minister Olmert warns Lebanon of "far-reaching consequences" after the attack.

July 17th: British Prime Minister Tony Blair and UN secretary general Kofi Annan call for deployment of a security force in Lebanon. US and Israel frown on the idea.Prime Minister Fouad Siniora accuses Israel of using terrorist methods to exert pressure on Lebanon and says its offensive would foster extremism in the Middle East.

July 18th: Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni says Hizbollah must free its two Israeli captives without conditions.

July 19th: Israeli troops cross the border to raid Hizbullah posts.

Two of its soldiers were killed and nine injured in fighting with Hizbullah guerrillas.

Mr Siniora calls on the international community to intervene to end an Israeli onslaught against the country and to rush in badly needed humanitarian aid.

Israeli air strikes on Lebanon kill 58 civilians and one Hizbullah fighter, the deadliest toll of the eight-day-old war.

At least 294 people have been killed in Lebanon in eight days -- all but 27 of them civilians -- and 29 have died in Israel.
© 2006 The Irish Times

Do still deny that Hezbollah initiated the conflict?I'm not talking about the morals of the conflict or the historical issues surrounding it.I'm specifically referring to the start of the last conflict,i thought i had already made that clear.
Do you have any evidence to back up your figures of 100,000+ cluster bombs etc?I haven't made any claims of innocence of behalf of Israel.I've simply said that between the 2 parties involved in the conflict,Israel was the one making more of an effort to avoid civilian casualties.I'm not trying to excuse the deaths of civilians that Israel was responsible for,but the fact remains that the overwhelming majority of Hezbollahs attacks into Israel were made using imprecise rockets aimed to land in built up urban areas.

Manic Moran · 15-02-2007 12:47AM

Poblachtach wrote:

Dropping 100,000 cluster bombs on civilian areas

Exaggeration doesn't help your point. Ballpark maths:

Standard Capacity of F-16: ALQ-119 or similar on centreline pylon, no drop tanks, two Mk20s per underwing mount, four sidewinders. 8 bombs per load.

100,000/ = 12,500 sorties = 390 a day. That's more than two ground attack sorties for every single front-line aircraft in the Israeli inventory every day for a month, leaving none available for any other role or munitions load, or dropped outside of civilian areas which we know isn't the case, and no stand-downs for maintainance. Let alone, I'd be curious to see the storage facilities for 100,000 bombs.

and using internationally banned weapons

Name one.

NTM

InFront · 15-02-2007 12:51AM

AbusesToilets wrote:

The British were in charge of Palestine and after the end of WW2 the UN proposed a 2 state solution,which was dismissed by the Arabs

Yeah but go back to the end of world war one, that's where I'm starting from. Where did the British mandate come from? The Disraeli deployment of Zionists to the Palestinian territory - an unfounded invasion of Zionism. That is what I mean by wiping the Arab state off the map.

Hezbollah not starting the conflict,they did.They attacked Israeli positions and kidnapped a soldier(s?),looking to provoke a response.

But were the Israelis not "looking to provoke a response" with the thousands of Palestinians they captured prior to this? Why have you avoided that when put to you? Whats so special about a few Israeli soldiers???

Lebanon isn't Palestine,it's a seperate state and your continued intertwining of the 2 is diversionary.

No it's not. The point is Israel, 'the new neighbour', is a terrorist state and is an occupier of Palestine and was also an occupying force in S.Lebanon. That unites the Lebanese and the Palestinians.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/world/2006/0713/1146660100799.html

MIDDLE EAST: The militant group's seizure of two Israeli soldiers was more than a gesture of solidarity with the Palestinians, writes Michael Jansen

Lebanon's Shia Hizbullah movement opened up a second Arab front against Israel yesterday because the movement could not ignore the challenge posed by Israel's escalating offensive in Gaza.

On the pan-Arab level, Hizbullah cannot claim to be a resistance organisation and sit tight while Israeli troops and tanks operate in Gaza.

Hizbullah's operation was more than a gesture of solidarity with the Palestinians: for some time it has been co-ordinating attacks against Israel with Palestinian factions based in Lebanon.

By mounting a dramatic raid across the Lebanese-Israeli frontier and capturing two Israeli soldiers, Hizbullah increased pressure on the Israeli government to negotiate an exchange of Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners held by Israel for the movement's captives and Cpl Gilad Shalit, snatched by Palestinian on the Gaza border on June 25th.

It was the Israeli's who called that war. Please explain why a war was warranted.

AbusesToilets · 15-02-2007 01:01AM

You're streching things saying that Hezbollah launched these things in solidarity with the Palestinians.Hezbollah is concerned with Lebanon and Israel actions in relation to the country.It's a more likey scenario that they launched these attacks at the behest of Iran in order to exert pressure on the US and divert interntional attentions away from it's actions to develop nuclear capabilities.

Yeah but go back to the end of world war one, that's where I'm starting from. Where did the British mandate come from? The Disraeli deployment of Zionists to the Palestinian territory - an unfounded invasion of Zionism. That is what I mean by wiping the Arab state off the map.

It wan't a case of Disraeli deploying Jews to Palestine,they allowed immigration to occur,immigration that increased with the advent of the Nazis.Zionists started to move in in relation to this immigration policy.Britain gained this mandate in the aftermath of WW1.As it points out as conflict between Zionists and Arabs increased the UN proposed a 2 state solution to the problem,a proposal the Jewish groups accepted and the Arabs rejected.

US accuse Iran of supplying bombs to Shiite militants in Iraq.

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