Sharia Law in Ireland?

Mick86 · 24-09-2006 02:01PM #1

An article in today's Sunday Independent identified what may become a problem in Ireland in future.

Sharia law in Ireland 'if Muslims are the majority'

SHARIA law should rule Ireland in the event of a Muslim majority, a senior Islamic cleric has said.

The legal system, derived from the Koran, is implemented in a number of Islamic countries to varying degrees, from beheadings in Saudi Arabia to the more liberal attitudes of Malaysia.

Secretary-General of the Irish Council of Imams Ali Selim said: "There is a clear misunderstanding of the term Sharia law. People get alerted to what will happen them when they hear this term and see it as a negative thing. But under Sharia law a Christian can live by Christian laws, a Jew by the laws of Judaism, and Muslims by Sharia law.

"If the majority in a country want something and vote for it, do you accept it or do you put it in the bin? If a majority want it then it should happen. If not, that is a dictatorship."

In Sharia law a set of offences known as Hadd are punishable by penalties such as stoning or flogging to death, or the chopping off of a hand. These offences include sex outside marriage, theft and drinking alcohol, but the majority of Islamic states do not adopt Hadd offences as part of their state law.

The recently formed Irish Council of Imams represents all 14 imams in the Republic of Ireland and has the authority to speak on behalf of the country's 40,000 Muslims.

While Mr Selim would like to see Sharia law in Ireland, and the Muslim community has grown dramatically in recent years, he admits the likelihood of forming a majority is extremely slim.

He said: "The reality is that the Muslim community in Ireland, or in any part of Europe, are minorities and the best they can wish for is to be able to integrate. The Irish do not make us feel like strangers and they do not find diversity threatening. They have been very welcoming to us and we are cooperating with them for the joint good."

Speaking of the violent outcry from Muslims around the world at Pope Benedict's remarks on Islam, Mr Selim said it was important the reaction was understood in the context of the environment in which it took place.

He said: "This violence happened in a very limited area and you must look at the political environment in those areas to understand it. In Ireland we were definitely shocked, but when we realised the Vatican was taking steps towards a withdrawal we decided not to express our views. If we had expressed our views it would have been in a civil manner and in a way harmonious to the society in which we live."

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1694204&issue_id=14687

lostexpectation · 24-09-2006 02:23PM

Mick86 wrote:

An article in today's Sunday Independent identified what may become a problem in Ireland in future.

if Muslim are majority, Which they will not be so end of story.

Rev Hellfire · 24-09-2006 03:54PM

That article is so true, why look at turkey a muslim state and its got sharia law, no wait *err* hold on. Just because you have a muslim majority it doesnt hold you have to have sharia law.

That article proves nothing and is simple scare mongering.

Mick86 · 24-09-2006 05:17PM

lostexpectation wrote:

if Muslim are majority, Which they will not be so end of story.

If there is a substantial minority they might also demand some form of self-governance as has been demanded in Britain.

Rev Hellfire wrote:

That article is so true, why look at turkey a muslim state and its got sharia law, no wait *err* hold on. Just because you have a muslim majority it doesnt hold you have to have sharia law.

That article proves nothing and is simple scare mongering.

It proves nothing except a glimpse into the attitude of Ireland's Imams. You will note that Ali Selim didn't say Turkey doesn't implement Sharia Law so Ireland won't. And of course there are plenty of Muslim States that do implement Sharia Law. Iran and Saudi Arabia being two such states where pre-medieval laws are still in use. Even Pakistan recently failed to bring it's rape laws out of the dark ages.

Schuhart · 24-09-2006 09:22PM

Rev Hellfire wrote:

That article proves nothing and is simple scare mongering.

True, and in any case given that we're still in the process of recovering from having an amount of Catholic ethics stitched into our laws there's hardly scope for assuming the moral high ground on this one.

Hobbes · 24-09-2006 11:05PM

Mick86 warned. Read the charter.

Thread moved to Humanities.

Incidently Mick, They have Sharia law in England already, its just not allowed to supercede the laws of the land. I recommend you go read up on it.

Also as hard as this is to believe, the majority vote in what they want. I believe that's called democracy.

Victor · 25-09-2006 05:30AM

Mick86 wrote:

If there is a substantial minority they might also demand some form of self-governance as has been demanded in Britain.

Like the Scots and Welsh?

Even Pakistan recently failed to bring it's rape laws out of the dark ages.

Those laws date from the 1970s

fly_agaric · 25-09-2006 10:20AM

Victor wrote:

Those laws date from the 1970s

Er, I don't think the adjective "dark ages" refers to exactly when the laws came into force (which is something I do not know).
You are being too literal IMO...

Maybe Ireland or the UK could learn something from Pakistan here?
I'm sure feminists who complain that not enough men are jailed for rape and want to raise those conviction rates would be only too delighted with that!:)

Hobbes wrote:

Also as hard as this is to believe, the majority vote in what they want.

If the "moral majority" [or "moral important minority" for muslims perhaps] ever come to believe they can force their Holy Laws down people's gobs in this country again that would be a good time for the immoral minority/majority to bug out of Ireland altogether, don't ya think?:)

Zombrex · 25-09-2006 10:46AM

Mick86 wrote:

An article in today's Sunday Independent identified what may become a problem in Ireland in future.

I'm not sure how? Ireland is not going to have a majority of Muslims any time soon (or any time in the distant future as far as population trends are going), and as someone else pointed out, just because a country is Muslim majorty doesn't mean it will have Islamic law. For Islamic law to be fully inplimented large parts of the consitution would have to be reformed, so we are talking about a series of referendums, its not something the government could do.

I wouldn't worry to much about his. I would be more worried about getting the current Christian government to start sorting the country out

fly_agaric · 25-09-2006 11:55AM

Wicknight wrote:

I wouldn't worry to much about his. I would be more worried about getting the current Christian government to start sorting the country out

I wonder if you'd get better odds on the public (of any religion) demanding canings for criminals in front of the Giant Needle of Dublin than on any Irish govt. "sorting the country out".

Maybe both are not mutually exclusive? (joke)

Mick86 · 25-09-2006 01:26PM

Hobbes wrote:

Mick86 warned. Read the charter.

Thread moved to Humanities. .

With all due respect, the post is about Islam. It refers to Irish Muslims and is not offensive. What is the basis of your warning exactly?

Hobbes wrote:

Incidently Mick, They have Sharia law in England already, its just not allowed to supercede the laws of the land. I recommend you go read up on it.

Then it isn't law.

Hobbes wrote:

Also as hard as this is to believe, the majority vote in what they want. I believe that's called democracy.

True which is why we need to safeguard our democracy now before an alien culture votes it away.

Mick86 · 25-09-2006 01:28PM

Wicknight wrote:

I'm not sure how? Ireland is not going to have a majority of Muslims any time soon (or any time in the distant future as far as population trends are going), and as someone else pointed out, just because a country is Muslim majorty doesn't mean it will have Islamic law. For Islamic law to be fully inplimented large parts of the consitution would have to be reformed, so we are talking about a series of referendums, its not something the government could do.

I wouldn't worry to much about his. I would be more worried about getting the current Christian government to start sorting the country out

I suggest you re-read the posts above this one.

lostexpectation · 25-09-2006 01:34PM

Mick86 wrote:

With all due respect, the post is about Islam. It refers to Irish Muslims and is not offensive. What is the basis of your warning exactly?

Then it isn't law.

there are several layers of laws.

Mick86 · 25-09-2006 01:38PM

fly_agaric wrote:

I wonder if you'd get better odds on the public (of any religion) demanding canings for criminals in front of the Giant Needle of Dublin than on any Irish govt.

I'd be more worried about the extremer punishments that Sharia Law demands.

Mick86 · 25-09-2006 01:46PM

lostexpectation wrote:

there are several layers of laws.

Really. So give me an example.

philologos · 25-09-2006 01:51PM

It's very unlikely Muslims will be the majority in our lifetime anyway

Zombrex · 25-09-2006 03:01PM

Mick86 wrote:

I suggest you re-read the posts above this one.

Which ones?

Parts of Sharia law have been implimented in countries such as Canada for civil disputes between two willing Muslim parties. The system is not used for criminal disputes and has nothing to do with punishment for criminals. You also don't have to use it if you don't want to. In Canada similar systems existed for Chritian and Jewish civil disputes for years.

For Ireland to enter into full on Islamic law like in Iran or Saudi Arabia large parts of the constitution would need to be updated or simply removed. This cannot happen without a referendum, and Muslims would need to be in a large majority for this to happen.

There are appox 25,000 Muslims in Ireland, and 4.2 million non-Muslims (approx), the Muslim population would need to grow 160 times to out number non-Muslims, and the non-Muslim population would need to stay static. And that is only a 50% majority, I think you need more to change the consitution (might be wrong about this).

So like Jakkas said, it is very doubtful that we will experience a Muslim majority, or anything close to that, in Ireland within our life time

damonjewel · 25-09-2006 03:18PM

I think its more frightening that this is the expressed view of the Imam (mind you he could have been taken out of context by the Indo), Imagine if the Bishop of Beirut said that if the majority of the Lebanon were Catholics then we should have Theocracy based on vatican teachings, there would be outrage by most Catholics to this. IMO most muslims I have met and I am fairly well travelled are happy with the democratic laws of their land (e.g. Tunisia,Turkey) and Sharia law would be out of the question. I have been in Iran too and the government is widely despised by most Iranians who confided in me about the situation there.

Hobbes · 25-09-2006 04:08PM

Mick86 wrote:

With all due respect, the post is about Islam. It refers to Irish Muslims and is not offensive. What is the basis of your warning exactly?

Read the charter of the forum. Your post was clearly an attempt at your personal opinion stating that people of Islam are a threat and need to be stopped.

Then it isn't law.

Yes it is. They are British lawyers who follow British laws. What happens is two muslims will come together to the lawyers who will say "We wish to settle dispute X according to Sharia law". The lawyer will work with them to settle the matter while obeying the laws of the land.

It has been going on for years and is perfectly legal.

All your scaremongering of beheadings/stonings/etc are actually not part of Sharia law.

True which is why we need to safeguard our democracy now before an alien culture votes it away.

Hence the reason you were warned.

If they were ever a majority (which is extremly unlikely even in a couple of generations) then it wouldn't be an alien culture, it would already be part of the overall culture that the majority would agree to it. Even so as mentioned you are talking about changes to our constitution which would have to be ratified by the people.

Hobbes · 25-09-2006 04:18PM

Actually your own story link points it out..

under Sharia law a Christian can live by Christian laws, a Jew by the laws of Judaism, and Muslims by Sharia law.

...

"If the majority in a country want something and vote for it, do you accept it or do you put it in the bin? If a majority want it then it should happen. If not, that is a dictatorship."

...

In Sharia law a set of offences known as Hadd ... but the majority of Islamic states do not adopt Hadd offences as part of their state law.

HelterSkelter · 25-09-2006 04:22PM

Mick86 wrote:

True which is why we need to safeguard our democracy now before an alien culture votes it away.

Sounds like a viewpoint Unionists in Nothern Ireland might have about people who want a United Ireland.

Mick86 · 25-09-2006 05:33PM

HelterSkelter wrote:

Sounds like a viewpoint Unionists in Nothern Ireland might have about people who want a United Ireland.

Since the people who wanted a united Ireland spent their lives murdering unionists, who could blame them.

DeVore · 25-09-2006 06:03PM

Did I miss something? I think that muslim bloke was being pretty reasonable and hit it on the head in fact.
If the majority vote something in.... shouldnt that happen??

Or is there some controlling group that has to ok it.... my understanding is that the will of the people is the highest authority in the land, or did I miss a meeting?

DeV.

Sand · 25-09-2006 08:43PM

Did I miss something? I think that muslim bloke was being pretty reasonable and hit it on the head in fact.
If the majority vote something in.... shouldnt that happen??

Or is there some controlling group that has to ok it.... my understanding is that the will of the people is the highest authority in the land, or did I miss a meeting?

That would be the 4 wolves and lamb voting on what to have for dinner style democracy.

There are all sorts of brakes, locks, stabilisers and anti-populist measures in modern successful liberal democracies. Theyre there for a reason, usually to protect the individual from the tyranny of the majority.

So no, if the majority vote something in, that doesnt mean it should happen.

Sesshoumaru · 25-09-2006 09:12PM

There is nothing wrong with wanting to protect your culture. Islam is a foreign culture and as its adherents are always pointing out its the fastest growing religion/culture on the planet. As an atheist I want to live under man made laws. Not laws made by some fictional character from an old book. As I see it there will eventually be no where left on this planet for people like myself to live as we want. Can't I have a place to call home as well? Can't people who just don't want to be Muslims have a place to call home?

Victor · 25-09-2006 09:26PM

damonjewel wrote:

I have been in Iran too and the government is widely despised by most Iranians who confided in me about the situation there.

And from time to time you will here the Mullahs telling the police to stop being over-vigilant.

Sesshoumaru · 25-09-2006 10:13PM

Hobbes wrote:

Actually your own story link points it out..

You can only live by your owns laws if you pay the Jizya tax.

Schuhart · 25-09-2006 11:10PM

I suppose it would be out of the question to remember that up to the 1970s it was illegal to import or sell contraceptives in this country because:

Every sperm is sacred
Every sperm is great
If a sperm is wasted
God gets quite irate

The lunacy only stopped when the Supreme Court ruled that the State had no right to stop married couples from sticking whatever they wanted wherever they wanted, and not because of any majority voting anyway.
We might also remember the constitutional ban on divorce, which took two attempts to vote out - and then by the narrowest of margins.

Clearly Islam is bunkum, same as all organised religions, and the idea that people would actually vote in a particular way because some smelly cleric has an old book is more than worrying. But can we develop some sense of proportion that stops seeing this inclination as alien? If you want to know what this kind of culture is like, ask your granny. She'll enjoy the company.

HelterSkelter · 26-09-2006 09:37AM

People are going on about Islam being an alien culture and that Sharia Law should not be allowed even if it is voted in by the majority. I find this quite ironic given that our culture today is totally alien to that in which our grandparents lived. If they had taken the same attitude back in their day then we would be forced to live to the values they thought were right i.e. no sex before marriage, no contraception, no divorce, strict catholic upbringing, go to mass every sinday, first friday of the month, no shopping on sundays, etc, etc...even if the majority of us vote against it.

Anyway this article is all scaremongering and another opportunity for the media to have a go at Muslims and stir up trouble. There is no way Muslims are going to outnumber non-Muslims in this country in the near or distant future.In any case all the Muslims I know would not be in favour of "penalties such as stoning or flogging to death, or the chopping off of a hand" so if there was a Muslim majority here chances are they wouldn't want Sharia Law either.

Nevyn · 26-09-2006 10:01AM

Out of all the western countries there is only one it is possible for such laws to be brought about with out changes in the statue of laws for the county and that funnily enough is the untited states of america.

Already there are pro christian towns being set up where the town by laws and ordances are voted upon by the people who live there and the next step is the country laws which is again is a local vote of the people living there.

State/Federal/national laws come after that.

So if a group of people got together bought a tract of land and went about building a town on it they can inact what ever town bylaws and if there is enough of them effect and inact county laws.

Pretty much the same way things are run by the vast majority of mormons in Salt Lake city.
A town/city where the bylaws are inline with sharia law is not that unfeasible.

Zombrex · 26-09-2006 11:12AM

Sesshoumaru wrote:

There is nothing wrong with wanting to protect your culture. Islam is a foreign culture and as its adherents are always pointing out its the fastest growing religion/culture on the planet.

But thats the point. If Islam is in the substantial majority in Ireland, it won't be a foreign culture. It will be "the" culture of Ireland. This would also take decades, so it would have been the culture of Ireland for a long time.

But I agree with Sand, just because the majority want something doesn't mean it is correct to impliment it. There are some things I would fight to stop the majority doing, if they start breaching human rights and civil liberities.

But as I said, this is all rather pointless speculation. Islam is not going to be the majority, even if it was it is doubtful that the majority of Muslims would want to democractically vote in a set of harsh Islamic laws (as someone pointed out most Muslims in the middle east don't even like these, they are sustained by the fundamentalists).

Sharia Law in Ireland?

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