Chrome Heated Towell Rail - Good or Bad?

Endymion · 20-08-2006 09:23AM

Well that would be conduction and radiation victor, with the bulk transfered through conduction. Why do you ask. Do you have a cooker problem? Oh I see.

tapest · 20-08-2006 11:19AM

Hi guys
This is not intended to add fuel to this heated (lol) discussion, rather a trip down memory lane.
In the old days radiators "radiated" heat, with the little convection you get when any heated object is exposed to cooler air. Then came the modern efficient rads, with little boxes on their back panels, acting like mini chimney flues to enhance air movement. This were actually called "convector radiators" and during the transition period you had to specify which type you wanted. In fact there was a time when skips were full of panel rads with people converting just the rads.
I know I'm old

t

20-08-2006 11:38AM

I only read the first few posts ,the towel rails are only for decorative purposes really ,they arent designed for heat output.

If you look at standard radiators they have fins on the back or in the middle ,the convection currents caused by these actually pull in cold air from the bottom of the radiator because they push warm air up .Your room actually heats in a circular motion with convector radiators .

Towel rads are just bars that heat up ,the surface of the towel rad alone says it all . Even an old non convector rad is better than a modern towel rad ,as the heated surface is about 50-60% more.

There are radiators that come with a rail at the top ,nothing special ,but great for bathrooms that have two outside walls.

Brian.

ircoha · 20-08-2006 04:38PM

Carnivore wrote:

Ps ignore all comments about finish, the effect is insignificant to the level of being non existent.

TRex: you describe your self elsewhere as being regarded as being abrasive: never Man, u a pussy cat:D

if your statement above is true, please explain the comment in the following link
http://www.myson.co.uk/specifications.pdf

For the hard of hearing, I have posted the salient line here:
Chrome outputs reduce by approximately 35%.

If it not the finish, then wtf is the reason?

20-08-2006 05:07PM

The op is asking if a towel rail is good or bad,
The towel rail rad is good at making your en-suite,bathroom look well .
The towel rail rad has a very very bad heat output .regardless of whether it's painted with thick chrome paint or heat emmiting white enamel paint.

Would strongly suggest against one if it's for a bathroom with two outside walls, an en-suite with one oustside wall may not be so bad.

Endymion · 20-08-2006 06:17PM

ircoha wrote:

TRex: you describe your self elsewhere as being regarded as being abrasive: never Man, u a pussy cat:D

if your statement above is true, please explain the comment in the following link
http://www.myson.co.uk/specifications.pdf

For the hard of hearing, I have posted the salient line here:
Chrome outputs reduce by approximately 35%.

If it not the finish, then wtf is the reason?

When I talk about finish, I mean finish, as in dull/ dark/ shinny. There will be very little difference between hightly polished shinny chrome, and dull chrome, with regards to heat transfer though the upper layer to the outside world. However shinny finishes reflect heat away, just like in that farscape episode where criton had a shinny shield to reflect the heat.

anyway, in a rush, have to go, sorry for short insane answer.

hey, thanks for asking.

ircoha · 20-08-2006 09:25PM

_Brian_ wrote:

The op is asking if a towel rail is good or bad,
The towel rail rad is good at making your en-suite,bathroom look well .
The towel rail rad has a very very bad heat output .regardless of whether it's painted with thick chrome paint or heat emmiting white enamel paint.

Would strongly suggest against one if it's for a bathroom with two outside walls, an en-suite with one oustside wall may not be so bad.

The OP is asking about Chrome Heated Towel Rail, not just about towel rails.

The link i provide elsewhere in this post clearly states that chrome output is 35% less than normal, where the normal is white enamel paint and the chrome is a metal finish, not a paint.

What would be nice to know is why Chrome output sucks

ircoha · 20-08-2006 09:28PM

Carnivore wrote:

When I talk about finish, I mean finish, as in dull/ dark/ shinny. There will be very little difference between hightly polished shinny chrome, and dull chrome, with regards to heat transfer though the upper layer to the outside world. However shinny finishes reflect heat away, just like in that farscape episode where criton had a shinny shield to reflect the heat.

anyway, in a rush, have to go, sorry for short insane answer.

hey, thanks for asking.

Okay T-Rex, sorry u had to rush, heard a few Brontosaurus scream after you went [ a la Robin Williams in Mrs Doubtfire:)

What you are saying is that there is very little difference in chrome finishes which is cool:D My other post asks why chrome sucks

20-08-2006 09:30PM

ircoha wrote:

The OP is asking about Chrome Heated Towel Rail, not just about towel rails.

The link i provide elsewhere in this post clearly states that chrome output is 35% less than normal, where the normal is white enamel paint and the chrome is a metal finish, not a paint.

What would be nice to know is why Chrome output sucks

LETS PAINT ALL RADIATORS WITH BLACK EMULSION PAINT .

20-08-2006 09:33PM

If I try to heat 1kg of metal ,it will take longer than heating .75KG of metal.

Chrome is not paint ,Chrome is a metal.

Mellor · 21-08-2006 12:04AM

_Brian_ wrote:

.
The towel rail rad has a very very bad heat output .regardless of whether it's painted with thick chrome paint or heat emmiting white enamel paint.

_Brian_ wrote:

.
Chrome is not paint ,Chrome is a metal.

Can you explain your two completely opposed comments please.
Nobody ever suggested that chrome wasn't a metal. Or that 1kg heats up any quicker than .75kg
Kinda lost me with your last comments.

21-08-2006 12:13AM

If I've lost you I'm sorry ,let me call someone who gives a ****

21-08-2006 12:23AM

Mellor wrote:

Can you explain your two completely opposed comments please.
Nobody ever suggested that chrome wasn't a metal. Or that 1kg heats up any quicker than .75kg
Kinda lost me with your last comments.

The fact that this thread is still snailing along ,what type of comments do you expect to get .Getting anal about whether or not the chrome was painted on or electrical charged on ,I don't make them ,I install them.

Typical comments from someone who just started college or something.

Endymion · 21-08-2006 08:54AM

jesus this thread should ide.

but not today. "Chrome" as far as I remember is some alloy comprising iron and carbon andanothe metal actually called chrome. It has certain properies, one of which is being stainless, i.e. not rushing, which is good, considering it's going in the bathroom. Chrome could easily have a lower conductivity then normal steal, I honestly don't know.

Mellor · 21-08-2006 09:55AM

Chrome is a metal such as steel or nickel that has been plated with chromium.
The alloy that you are thinking of carnivore, (iron, carbon and chromium), is actually stainless steel.

This thread is dead, gone down the road of people giving information that they don't believe themselves.

I vote to close it.

Endymion · 21-08-2006 11:01AM

Mellor wrote:

The alloy that you are thinking of carnivore, (iron, carbon and chromium), is actually stainless steel.

This thread is dead, gone down the road of people giving information that they don't believe themselves.

I vote to close it.

In fairness I did say as far as I remember. Thanks for clearing that up though, I had been wondering what the differnce was between stainless steal and chrome, matierial wise.

Anyway, yea, the Op's orginal question where answered on page one.

Thread closed.

cormac_byrne · 21-08-2006 01:28PM

I said earlier that most of the heat leaving a radiator is by conduction (and then around the room by convection)

Mellor said that all things radiate heat and he is correct in that

I said that radiant heat output is only significant when things get really hot
"proportional to the fourth power of the absolute temperature of the source"

(e.g. old fashioned electric bar heater with shiny chrome reflector behind it)

After doing a bit more reading I realise that the radiant output in a radiator could be more significant than I was giving it credit for.

irocha wonders where 35% of the heat output can go if you replace an enamel paint finish with chrome.

Finish can have little effect on the conductivity of a material, so there has to be a different answer.

The answer is 'emmissivity'

Emissivity is the ability for radiant heat to leave the surface of an object. It matters not what the density, mass or thickness of the object, only the surface. As can be seen below, emissivity (E factor), plays a significant role in how heat moves.

Chrome .05 poor -> paint .94 excellent

EMISSIVITY OF VARIOUS COMMON MATERIALS

Material Emissivity value

Gold, polished .03
Metalized Film Radiant Barrier .04
Silver, polished .04
Chrome .05
Aluminum, polished .04
oxidized .78
Brass, polished .04
oxidized .61
Iron, polished .21
oxidized .69
Copper, polished .05
oxidized .78
Human skin .98

EMISSIVITY OF BUILDING MATERIALS

Wood .95
Glass .94
Paint, average of 16 colors .94
Brick, common red .93
Concrete .92
Plaster, rough coat .91

Endymion · 21-08-2006 02:29PM

So I was right? Carnivore ftw.

Ps, I'm still not too sure you knwo what your are saying

cormac_byrne · 21-08-2006 05:19PM

Carnivore wrote:

So I was right? Carnivore ftw.

Ps, I'm still not too sure you knwo what your are saying

No you're wrong and clearly don't understand either what I'm saying or what you're saying.

Carnivore wrote:

chrome isn't magic, the heat goes somewhere. Most likely out a window or through the ceiling

WRONG: it's Emissivity see above, Chrome .05 poor vs paint .94 excellent

Carnivore wrote:

Rads radiate heat, which in turn heats the surrounding air, this heat rises, cooler air decends and is heated by the rads radiated heat. This sets up a convection current which heats the room

WRONG: that's a perfect description of how radiators <b>conduct</b> heat
(yes I know they radiate some heat also)

Carnivore wrote:

ignore all comments about finish, the effect is insignificant to the level of being non existent

WRONG: see emissivity above & manufacturers specs detailing 35% difference

Carnivore wrote:

Look up what conductions is and you will see that you do not get conduction between two separate bodies

WRONG: I did look it up and pointed you to a very clear wikipedia article

Carnivore wrote:

the inside of the towel rail is black, "good for absorbing radiated heat, the outside is shinny or white, good for reflecting heat into the room.

WRONG: Radiators do not 'reflect' heat from within, they either conduct or radiate heat, as per the materials conductivity & emissitivy. Heat directed at the radiator, say from the bathroom light bulb will be absorbed or reflected depending on the reflectivity of the radiator surface, but that's not of any relevance to the functioning of the rad itself.

Carnivore wrote:

Shinny reflects heat, dull absorbs heat. The outside to the towel rail is shinny, so the outside reflects the rediated heat

WRONG: again we're talking radiated not reflected heat and chrome radiated less well than paint

Carnivore wrote:

cormac_byrne; Your link is broken

No it's not (wiki pages can be a bit slow to load though)

Carnivore wrote:

I don't think you understand what you quoted was the "Radiant energy is proportional to the fourth power of the absolute temperature of the source." coment. Thats a matierial specific comment.

WRONG: N.B. I did not say 'directly proportional'

Victor asked "So how does the heat get from the metal heating element on a cooker to the metal saucepan?"

Carnivore wrote:

Well that would be conduction and radiation victor, with the bulk transfered through conduction. Why do you ask. Do you have a cooker problem? Oh I see.

OK, you got that one right, but that's a direct contradiction of

Carnivore wrote:

Look up what conductions is and you will see that you do not get conduction between two separate bodies

Carnivore wrote:

However shinny finishes reflect heat away, just like in that farscape episode where criton had a shinny shield to reflect the heat.

So you were watching farscape when you shouldd have been studying your 'Thermodyanmics and Material science'

Out of curiosity was the heat source external or internal?

Endymion · 21-08-2006 06:44PM

I really care not how wrong you think I am, I answered the OP's questions correctly. It also seems to me that your knowledge is solely based on what you have read off wiki.

You said radiated heat was perportional to the square of blah blah blah bull****, I said it's material specific, you now agree with that. I was right, you wrong, ergo carnivore ftw.

btw it was an external scource and I was being flippen.

21-08-2006 08:15PM

Mellor wrote:

This thread is dead, gone down the road of people giving information that they don't believe themselves.

I vote to close it.

Seconded:cool:

cormac_byrne · 21-08-2006 11:25PM

Carnivore wrote:

I really care not how wrong you think I am, I answered the OP's questions correctly. It also seems to me that your knowledge is solely based on what you have read off wiki.

You said radiated heat was perportional to the square of blah blah blah bull****, I said it's material specific, you now agree with that. I was right, you wrong, ergo carnivore ftw.

btw it was an external scource and I was being flippen.

For Fcuk sake, I DID NOT agree that it was "material specific", I pointed out the lack of the word 'directly' which implies there could be a constant or other factors involved. (depending on the material)

Even the Sci - Fi doesn't back you up.

And just because I quoted a wiki article to try to explain in simple terms to you doesn't mean that that's the sum total of my knowledge.

I don't have the energy to try to explain any further to you, either you're really dim or just trolling, either way goodbye

Endymion · 22-08-2006 08:55AM

cormac_byrne wrote:

And just because I quoted a wiki article to try to explain in simple terms to you doesn't mean that that's the sum total of my knowledge

You copied and pasted a wiki article, offering none of your own insight.

I don't have the energy to try to explain any further to you, either you're really dim or just trolling, either way goodbye

You just can't admitt your where wrong, kinda sad really.

Ps Sci-fi backs me up, your just can understand the complexity of farscape. Now go back to studying for the jenior cert.

casey jones · 13-09-2006 03:43PM

This thread has plumbed

the depths of the condition known as anorakus totalus maximus....

casey jones · 13-09-2006 03:44PM

It started off with a simple query about towel rails and descended into an "I know more than you" type childish rant. Now that's really sad.

ircoha · 13-09-2006 06:37PM

Well this post certainly went pear shaped ok.

I have learned a lot and thank you to all who posted.

However we must also thank our recent economic boom for allowing us explore the elusive property of emissivity of materials at close quarters.

One definition is as follows:

The ratio of the radiation intensity of a nonblack body to the radiation intensity of a blackbody.

Another:
The ratio of the radiation emitted by a surface to the radiation emitted by a blackbody at the same temperature.

I have a difficulty with this as it suggests that Sharon Stone has a higher emissivity than Halle Berry.

Time for a topic on emissivity in afterhours perhaps:)

Chrome Heated Towell Rail - Good or Bad?

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