Private Schools.

thebaz · 09-08-2006 04:38PM

like most things in life there are good public (collaiste Eoin, Stillorgan !) and good private schools, and then again there are bad private , and bad public schools. But i think you improve the odds of your offspring attending a good local school, by paying up .. money can buy you most things in life it seams, certainly in this case it would improve your odds.

spurious · 09-08-2006 05:09PM

If parents are prepared to pay thousands of euro to have their child educated, they are already showing that the child more than likely comes from a home where education is valued. This gives the child much higher odds than others have of doing well.

Quite a few teachers in Irish schools do not have degrees - in some of the newer (and older) specialist areas a degree is not available (referred to in the DES as non-Memo V. 7 positions). You do not need a H. Dip. to teach in Ireland - many specialist teachers do a B.Ed. instead. The VECs used to require an Irish qualification called the Ceard Teastas to appoint someone to a permanent position, but this has been done away with. Indeed with the advent of Contracts of Indefinite Duration (CIDs) the idea of a permanent appointment may well be gone too.

Having a Masters or Ph.D says nothing about anyone's ability as a teacher. Results say nothing about a teacher's ability to teach.

There are holders of doctorates and Masters teaching in public and private schools, there are charlatans who should not be let near children in public and private schools - the only difference is that one you pay to go to and the other you don't. The grounding before the age of three or so is what is key.

Technically the non-fee-paying convent and religious schools are not publicly owned schools, but for the purposes of this debate, I think the OP meant fee-paying v non-fee-paying.

Terry · 09-08-2006 06:03PM

money can't buy intelligence or class.

[Jackass] · 09-08-2006 07:07PM

I think people who go to public school get just as good an education as people in a private school.

But think about it. If all the rich people send all their kids to a small selection of schools, all the rich kids get to know eachother through school...then all these rich kids go to the same colleges, except now mix with lots of extra rich kids they weren't in school with through knowing them through sport etc...and these rich kids get to know yet more rich kids through rugby clubs etc or what ever sport they play...All of a sudden, those private school fee's have not only afforded your child with a good education, best sports facilitys but also a contact list of the wealthiest people around!!

So when Mr.My daddy owns an auctioneers calls Mr.My daddys a big builder to let him know of good land they could develop appartments on, he immediatly calls Mr.My daddys a rich solicitor to close a sale of the property and he immediatly gets onto Mr.My daddys a rich surveyor and Mr.My daddy a rich architect to draw up the plans.

When it's being built, any one resource that needs to be brought in can be found amongst the now massive nextwork of my daddys rich boys through their private education route...money well spent

And if your not rich, one of these lads will need a senior executive in daddys company when this development finishes and they just made another €10m each and set the kids out on their own business's ....paid by daddy, but your child...he/she could be that senior executive!

Jeez, don't ANY of you read Ross O'Carroll Kelly?? That's EXACTLY how it works...

melekalikimaka · 09-08-2006 07:12PM

julep wrote:

money can't buy intelligence or class.

it helps tho

Dave! · 09-08-2006 07:20PM

julep wrote:

money can't buy intelligence or class.

My butler begs to differ

iFight · 09-08-2006 07:26PM

spurious wrote:

If parents are prepared to pay thousands of euro to have their child educated, they are already showing that the child more than likely comes from a home where education is valued. This gives the child much higher odds than others have of doing well.

You dont have to pay thousands of euro to value education though. If a family doesnt have enough money to pay schooling fees, they can still value their child's education.
It all comes down to the willingness of the person to work, you could achieve just as much in a public school as a private.

oranje · 09-08-2006 07:34PM

iFight wrote:

You dont have to pay thousands of euro to value education though. If a family doesnt have enough money to pay schooling fees, they can still value their child's education.
It all comes down to the willingness of the person to work, you could achieve just as much in a public school as a private.

Of course you are right. The main thing you pay for is the network which is not necessarily very useful but in certain areas people really can gain from the connections. My dad's money was wasted though as I kept in touch with two people from my school and went to uni in England which has its own network, of course.

Dudess · 09-08-2006 08:04PM

Hmmm. It's a difficult one. First of all, I'd have to be able to afford it. If the school had really good facilities etc, yeah, I might consider it. Nobody should be judged for sending their kids to a private school if it has good quality facilities on offer. My brothers went to a private school simply because of its excellent standards. I went to a public school which also had excellent facilities.
I used to know of one school, which was, apparently, a complete dump (don't know if it is anymore). Anyway, I used to find it strange that parents would pay fees to this school, which, as well as being in really bad repair, had sod all facilities. It occurred to me then that it's an old school and there are probably those women who were educated there, mothers were educated there, grandmothers etc, and now they were sending their daughter(s) there as part of a family tradition. Or there might have been those who were staff or knew staff there and felt most comfortable sending their daughters there. Or it could have been the convenience of the location. But I've no doubt that there were those snobs who simply sent their daughters to this school just because it was private and to show they had the money to afford it. Because, heaven forbid, they couldn't be sending their daughter(s) to a public school. As I said, none of these notions would have even entered my head if the school had decent facilities. I also wondered what precisely was being done with the money - maybe the fees were only enough to fund staffing and keep the place just barely afloat. I don't know.
As for the argument that private schools are better academically. Surely that's horse****? Don't all teachers receive the same training, whether they're employed by private or public schools? And obviously, kids who go to private schools can afford grinds and grind schools.

abetarrush · 09-08-2006 08:05PM

Payin for a private school is like buyin sand in the desert

Also, alot o kids from private schools are really fake, and snobby, and posh

[See where I said A lot, and not all!]

Tar.Aldarion · 09-08-2006 08:11PM

Pay for school?
No, never. Just a good public one. No point in paying that money.

robinph · 09-08-2006 08:40PM

The secondary mod that I got dumped in after getting a 'deffered success' on the 11+ was so awful that if I'd not walked out of it one day and refused to go back I would have been lucky to get any kind of qualification during my time there. A couple of days later though I was starting at a private school, I think it cost around £1000 a term in the '80's, and then actually started to be able to get an education.

Dudess · 09-08-2006 09:56PM

On a related but side note: the people I know who have gone to Church of Ireland/other protestant/non-denominational private schools are all so openminded and lovely - a bit quirky I suppose. Old-monied, not bothered with material ****. Anyone else find this? I'm talking about people who have gone to Bandon Grammar, Newtown in Waterford, Ashton in Cork (not a private school, but non-denominational).

CathyMoran · 09-08-2006 10:02PM

I was a Loretto Stephens Green girl - OK, so the standard of teaching could have been better but it was a nice place to go to, it was multicultural and there was a good ethos running through the place.

I would probably send any kids that I had in the future to either St Killians in Clonskeagh (because I like the idea of my kids having a multicultural education with a German emphasis, my partner is a fluent German speaker and I am part German) or else Belvedere as I like the Jesuit way of education...would probably have to put the kids name down as soon as they are concieved but I had a good experience in private school and would like that to continue.

Rb · 09-08-2006 10:07PM

Wouldn't send my kids to a public school in Dublin, only a private school.
Outside Dublin, whichever school (public or private) had the best facilities.

mloc · 09-08-2006 10:54PM

Personally, I think it's a personal decision, and each has its own merits and disadvantages. I went to both.

I would most likely send my children to a private school however. They each carry thier own "attitudes", in more than the conventional black and white poshy/scumbag way. And whichever attitude suits you, you should go for.

The private school I attended is now around €7,000 a year. Personally, for the community like attitude present in the place, I'd say it's worth it.

eamoss · 09-08-2006 11:08PM

€7,000 flip thats a lot I taught mine was bad at €2,500

Collie D · 09-08-2006 11:10PM

Would have to be public school, would disown any child of mine that came home with a D4 accent and asked me to bring him/her see Leinster

Rb · 09-08-2006 11:16PM

Collie D wrote:

Would have to be public school, would disown any child of mine that came home with a D4 accent and asked me to bring him/her see Leinster

Much rather have him come home with a hard Dub accent and ask you to bring him to see his Juvenile Liason Officer eh?

(since you're talking stereotypes).

Sonnenblumen · 09-08-2006 11:22PM

Some very salient points in the thread but also some stereotypical comments about the Private stream. IMO it would be silly to believe that all Private schools are better than public counterparts but in the main having decided to put my three children through Private I think I've made a better choice.

As some Posters have intimated the environment has a huge impact on how a child will develop, the Home is perhaps the most obvious but not always, increasingly the area is having a bigger impact, which causes more trouble for the brighter more motivated kids who perhaps have fewer options in terms of choice of school. Schooling would probably be the biggest influence outside of Parents/Home and area on how a child develops and it is for this reason that I chose Private. Yeah smaller better equipped classrooms are good, better facilities yes, non-denominational yes, multi-cultural rather than mono-cultural, is much more interesting. Interacting with teachers and kids from diverse international backgrounds offers huge advantages and really allows a child's mind to open up and be more receptive to developing self esteem, build confidence and not become risk adverse.

I believe that Parents should give their children the scope and freedom to think and not limit them from an early age to reflect their own values/prejudices. Unfortunately too many public schools for good/bad reasons suffer from narrow thinking because of the monoculture environment.

RainyDay · 09-08-2006 11:29PM

mloc wrote:

The private school I attended is now around €7,000 a year. Personally, for the community like attitude present in the place, I'd say it's worth it.

You do see the irony of describing something that excludes anyone who can't fork out €7k a year as a 'community', don't you?

I read some press articles recently claiming that the pupil/teacher ratios were better in many public schools now as many parents are spending the money that used to go on university fees on secondary school fees instead.

mloc · 09-08-2006 11:35PM

RainyDay wrote:

You do see the irony of describing something that excludes anyone who can't fork out €7k a year as a 'community', don't you?

According to dictionary.com, community means

1. Similarity or identity: a community of interests.
2. Sharing, participation, and fellowship.

It does not mean it has to include everybody. In fact, by being in some ways exclusive, the school can be developed into a closer community.

Dave! · 09-08-2006 11:36PM

mloc wrote:

According to dictionary.com, community means

1. Similarity or identity: a community of interests.
2. Sharing, participation, and fellowship.

It does not mean it has to include everybody. In fact, by being in some ways exclusive, the school can be developed into a closer community.

You mean by filtering out those who cannot afford 7k per annum...

mloc · 09-08-2006 11:39PM

In some ways yes. There was the case however of a particular individual i knew in the school who at one point could not afford to pay the fees because of family trouble, and the school, in the light of maintaining the community, allowed him to stay gratis.

jrey1981 · 10-08-2006 02:10AM

the public school I went to has gone downhill alot. It was well on its way while I was still there. Our neighbours are now sending their kids to fee-paying schools.

Private school education may stunt you emotionally - though that is more down to the single sex nature of it - and it does not guarantee your kid will be "eloquent, genteel and mature" as someone suggested.

There are plenty of boorish arrogant idiots that go to them - they just happen to be lucky and usually pretty wealthy boorish, arrogant idiots.

Private school buys you confidence, independence and if it plays to an employers prejudices, a step up the ladder from non privately-educated people.

I would probably let my kid have a say in where they go to school. It would depend on what was nearby, whether I could afford it, and what the other half thought. I would not rule it out.

antSionnach · 10-08-2006 03:00AM

Hmm. Yeah Id prefer to send my kids (God forbit it:D ) to a private school. The experiences of boarding and messing in dorms and stuff when youre 13 is amazing, some brilliant memories. I think it offers a slight advantage academically, and I think it teaches you things like comeraderie and the importance of 'getting on' with people. Also, the sports facilities are cool. My old school even had a (rather crap, outdoor) swimming pool. Brilliant fun, even if it was pretty crap!

Ballyman wrote:

So nobody has a clue how much these schools actually cost per year then??

Mine was 6,700 per year. That's about average.

On a related but side note: the people I know who have gone to Church of Ireland/other protestant/non-denominational private schools are all so openminded and lovely - a bit quirky I suppose. Old-monied, not bothered with material ****. Anyone else find this? I'm talking about people who have gone to Bandon Grammar, Newtown in Waterford, Ashton in Cork (not a private school, but non-denominational).

Maybe because for students whose families who are short of money, and where the family is from the wide Protestant community, grants (up to 4000 euro) are available from the SEC to send the kids to a Protestant boarding school. So the kids may not have notions of wealth or elitism. Although there were definitely people in my class I would describe as having a money complex.
I think that also Protestant parents tend to choose these schools for reasons other than status - i.e. religious reasons, as opposed to keeping up with the Jones'.
I know some really lovely people from Blackrock and Clongowes, going to a boarding school doesnt make you a snob, youre just as capable as being openminded as anyone else. Not everyone in public schools are openminded or lovely either!:)

il gatto · 10-08-2006 05:13AM

I went to a private school. It was a Church of Ireland school. I'm Catholic and so was about 50% of the other pupils. This notion of everyone in a private school being rich or posh or snobbish isn't always true. My school had a fair mix of people. Nobody was looked down on because their father had a clapped out Fiesta. Alot of my friends went to a big public school and there were alot more B.M.W.s and Mercs there at four o'clock than at my school.
My parents weren't wealthy in any way. Some people I went to primary school said we must be loaded, but my parents didn't drink or smoke or partake in any expensive hobbies. Other peoples parents went out every weekend or took the family on foreign holidays. They could have afforded the smallish fees if they wanted. It was more a case of reverse snobbishness.
There was a wonderful camaraderie at my school. It was mixed, so jibes about lonely schoolboys playing hide the sausage in the dorms doesn't apply. I made most of my best friends there. I didn't have trouble adjusting to "normal" life when I left because it was normal. People came from families of shopkeepers, builders, farmers, accountants, deliverymen, lorry drivers etc.
Nobody developed a droll accent. There was no elocution lessons. Maybe that's a Dublin thing. Most of the teachers were very good. Students got on well with teachers. Overall I found it a good learning atmosphere. And one which benefitted less academic pupils. I wouldn't say anything bad about public schools as I didn't attend one. Anything I say about them would only be conjecture. I'm sure an interested pupil would do just as well in one. Likewise, there's alot of s#*t talk here about private schools and what goes on in them. By the way, I didn't go to Trinity. I dropped out of an I.T. and have basically worked since my leaving, entirely of my own volition and not due to my education. Neither have I availed of or even noticed any "old boys network". Again, maybe that's a Dublin thing :rolleyes:

Pighead · 10-08-2006 08:46AM

jrey1981 wrote:

Private school education may stunt you emotionally - though that is more down to the single sex nature of it - and it does not guarantee your kid will be "eloquent, genteel and mature" as someone suggested.

Surely you can get mixed private schools as well if you want. In Pigheads town most of the Public secondary schools are Single Sex and its considered the norm.

Mixed secondary schools have only really got popular in the last 10-15 years. Pighead went to a single sex school and he turned out just lovely. So to say single sex schools "may stunt you emotionally" is a bit daft if you don't mind me saying.

holly_johnson · 10-08-2006 01:17PM

I'm transferring my daughter into private school (Senior Infants) this year from a public school.
Lots of reasons, mainly the standard in the public school was rubbish, attitude of school management bordered on disgraceful, facilities were non existent and she was suffering through boredom and lack of attention.

The wealth of after school activites and the far superior curriculum in the private school easily outweighs the cost of the school in my opinion.
She will be better off all round, can go straight through to secondary with the same friends and will be encouraged every step of the way to develop her skills.

I don't think you can put a price on your childs education. Every child is different, and you do all you can to encourage them to do well. I'm not saying it's going to be easy; I don't come from a background of private school or money, but I'm willing to make sacrifices to send her.

LadyJ · 10-08-2006 01:25PM

Pighead wrote:

Surely you can get mixed private schools as well if you want. In Pigheads town most of the Public secondary schools are Single Sex and its considered the norm.

Yep,my private school was mixed and my public school was single sex.

Tbh,it all depends on the school and on the person. Personally,the public school I went to was of a much better quality than the private school I went to.
I know I'd have done better in public school but that's just me. It was different for others. I still got great results from private school but I didn't feel as committed to it as I did to the public school. Maybe that's because I didn't have as much of a connection to it as I only moved there in 5th year and had spent 11 years in the other school.

Private Schools.

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