Decentralisation

Victor · 25-05-2006 02:00AM

ninja900 wrote:

It was in several newspapers last week - though until this morning, none of them made it clear that it was Parlon's office in Dublin not his constituency office... :eek:

But they are all working in Dublin, Not Offally.

Hotblack Desiato · 25-05-2006 02:07AM

Until this morning I thought they were finally going to find out where Birr was

holly_johnson · 25-05-2006 09:19AM

On Morning Ireland this morning they interviewed some staff in DCMNR about Decentralisation.
I can't remember exactly what one guy said, but he called Fianna Fail a brilliant name (something like a small time hustler in FF) and said he wouldn't be dictated to about where to live.
I tried to get the clip off the RTE website, but they only have yesterdays as the most recent at the mo.

Macy · 25-05-2006 09:27AM

ninja900 wrote:

The unions which are officially "neither for nor against, blah blah..." are studiously ignoring what's going on in FAS and elsewhere.
This will bite them in the behind big time when state agencies pull out and the pressure is on to get civil servants to make up the numbers.

It's probably clear their attitude disgusts me, speaking as a former CPSU rep.

Dinarius · 25-05-2006 03:50PM

My sources tell me that a lot of BIM people are on contract and that a lot of those contracts are up for renewal in the next 12 months.

The 91 already signed up for Clonakilty are all civil servants. None are public, i.e. BIMers.

The vibe is that the BIMers with contracts to be renewed will have their arms twisted.

Now I'm no lawyer, but if that isn't a case for constructive dismissal, I don't know what is.

This is going to get very, very dirty.

Watch this space.

D.

holly_johnson · 25-05-2006 03:53PM

Dinarius wrote:

My sources tell me that a lot of BIM people are on contract and that a lot of those contracts are up for renewal in the next 12 months.

The 91 already signed up for Clonakilty are all civil servants. None are public, i.e. BIMers.

The vibe is that the BIMers with contracts to be renewed will have their arms twisted.

Now I'm no lawyer, but if that isn't a case for constructive dismissal, I don't know what is.

This is going to get very, very dirty.

Watch this space.

D.

If that is the case, then you're right, it is constructive dismissal, but winning it would be hard I think. I can already hear the arguments from the Official Side about new contract, new terms etc...

Hotblack Desiato · 25-05-2006 04:14PM

Contract workers have a lot more rights now due to the recent EU directive. We'll see.

Macy · 26-05-2006 08:50AM

Hopefully the Government are starting to see sense, after Harney's comments yesterday re: Semi State's. But then Bertie flip flopped on the issue again yesterday so who knows. We'll wait and see, but the tide is going the right way at the moment.

Dinarius · 26-05-2006 12:07PM

IMPACT's comment yesterday that Decentralisation would not be part of the pay talks when they resume on Sunday was a bit worrying. I felt that something had gone on behind the scenes.

Also, the resumed talks between FAS and the government appear to be only dealing with the issue of promotion and a willingness to move, according to press reports. If this is true, then the substantive issue of NO ONE wishing to move to Birr is being ignored. What gives? In true Irish fashion, it would appear that the (enormous) elephant in the room is being ignored.

D.

Macy · 27-05-2006 11:13AM

The talks at the LRC, and the resultant proposal, only deal with the current FAS dispute, which was over the introduction of the "Birr Clause" in promotional contracts. FAS workers have won the battle - the war is still to get the semi states out of the process. I don't think anyone in FAS is ignoring the elephant in the room - listen to both the HR Directors and the SIPTU Branch Organisers comments on five-seven Live last night.

With regard to the pay talks, Jack O'Connor stated that SIPTU wouldn't be able to recommend acceptance of any deal while Decentralisation isn't sorted. He cleared that up straight, well a couple of hours, after throwing the cat amongst the pidgeons.

Finally on IMPACT, whatever about the general membership and officials in that Union, McLoone has become like a Government puppet on Decentralisation, especially with regard to FAS. I think a heard of elephants dancing on the board room table wouldn't have got his attention. He should be ashamed of the fact that they tried to move a board meeting away from an official picket last month, and only called it off when the protest was going to follow them around Dublin.

Dinarius · 28-05-2006 04:51PM

Agree on the Five Seven Live interview.

But, in the same segment of the programme what was the guy from HR in FAS doing repeating the government line saying that decentralisation is moving ahead and the government still intends to move FAS to Birr?!

Surely he should have said that it wasn't for him to answer that? He sounded like some FF toad from Offaly.

D.

NewDubliner · 28-05-2006 07:48PM

Macy wrote:

Hopefully the Government are starting to see sense, after Harney's comments yesterday re: Semi State's.

I would not take much encouragement from what she said as she was tight-lipped about what was cusing the problems or how she thought the problems should be solved.

TempestSabre · 28-05-2006 08:09PM

Dinarius wrote:

Agree on the Five Seven Live interview.

But, in the same segment of the programme what was the guy from HR in FAS doing repeating the government line saying that decentralisation is moving ahead and the government still intends to move FAS to Birr?!

Surely he should have said that it wasn't for him to answer that? He sounded like some FF toad from Offaly.

D.

I assume HR is simply communicating FAS managment position. Which is that they are there to follow govt policy as directed. Thus far FAS managment (Board) have been almost completely silent in regard to decentralisation, except to indicate any progress thus far on the move to Birr. Which is they've picked a site, but not bought anything as of yet.

TempestSabre · 28-05-2006 08:12PM

Macy wrote:

The talks at the LRC, and the resultant proposal, only deal with the current FAS dispute, which was over the introduction of the "Birr Clause" in promotional contracts. FAS workers have won the battle - the war is still to get the semi states out of the process. ....

Agreed. Decentralisation was actually not the core issue of the dispute. It was the changing of contracts. So it will be interesting what angle the unions (well Siptu - the other unions seem to doing nothing) take against decentralisation.

Dinarius · 29-05-2006 08:28AM

Two things..........

1. Stephen Collins' column in Saturday's Irish Times was the most cogent and damning indictment of decetralisation that I have read. I don't have access to IT online, so if someone would care to cut and paste for the benefit of others........? Thanks.

2. Those who have signed up for the decentralisation of Marine to Clonakilty are having a get-together in Clonakilty today. Apparently, the first of them will be in situ by July. They have leased a building in the West Cork Technology Park for a period of two years, in anticipation of building a headquarters during that time.

As has been said before, given that marine is a political non-event and could be run from Antartica, and given also that they have had the required numbers and grades since the beginning, this will succeed.

Marine is, arguably, one of the worst run departments in the entire Civil Service. Ask anyone who has ever had anything to do with it. (The other day I spoke with someone who works in the Arts Council(!) who could give me chapter and verse on its incompetence.) So, it will be no loss to the 'collective memory' of the Dublin Civil Service, nor to its decision making capabilities.

Of course, no one from BIM will be going, but that's another story.

D.

Macy · 29-05-2006 08:42AM

TempestSabre wrote:

Agreed. Decentralisation was actually not the core issue of the dispute. It was the changing of contracts. So it will be interesting what angle the unions (well Siptu - the other unions seem to doing nothing) take against decentralisation.

It's SIPTU policy to get the semi states out of the decentralisation process, following a motion at last years biennial conference. I doubt they're going to drop the ball on the wider issue - and I doubt the members in the semi-states, including FAS will let them.

SIPTU in BIM have a public meeting tomorrow evening in Dun Laoghaire, so the campaign goes on, only with all workers in work and getting paid.

uncivilservant · 29-05-2006 11:03AM

Dinarius wrote:

1. Stephen Collins' column in Saturday's Irish Times was the most cogent and damning indictment of decetralisation that I have read. I don't have access to IT online, so if someone would care to cut and paste for the benefit of others........? Thanks.

Decentralisation was another obvious political wheeze designed to win votes in the local elections of 2004 by scattering public servants to 53 locations around the country. It failed miserably in its main objective when the Government parties took a pasting in those elections. Instead of burying it as quickly and decently as possible, the Coalition has desperately tried to prove that the policy lives on.

In the past few days both the Taoiseach and Tánaiste have indicated they are open to some modification of the scheme but they still do not seem to appreciate just how fundamentally flawed it is. The increasingly vocal objections of the unions will probably halt the plan to move the headquarters of Fás to Birr.

Mary Harney has publicly acknowledged that the employees of semi-State companies who want to remain in Dublin do not have the option that civil servants have to transfer to another department. That acknowledgment will probably have the effect of scuppering plans to move a range of other State agencies out of Dublin.

However, the Government still does not seem to appreciate that the plan to move half of the Government departments out of Dublin is even more absurd. If implemented, it would undermine the structure of a Civil Service that has served the country well since independence in 1922. The long-term implications of such a move would have damaging consequences for generations to come.

The point has been made again and again that there is no problem about decentralising specific units of public service, but that to try and move whole departments is a recipe for disaster. The net effect would be that a minister living in one part of the country, with a department based in another, would spend most of his or her time rushing to Dublin to attend Dáil or cabinet meetings, with a few trips to Brussels in between. At a deeper level, the break-up of the Civil Service would limit its ability to perform to the highest level and would lead to an unquantifiable amount of duplication, waste and extra expense.

The main Opposition parties have been tentative in their criticism of the Government's policy towards the public service. Fine Gael did oppose benchmarking but a fear of losing votes paralysed the main Opposition party in its initial response to decentralisation. Labour, with its strong union links, was loath to criticise benchmarking and it appeared tentative on decentralisation for fear of alienating supporters in rural constituencies.

More recently both parties have got over their reluctance to take a stand, with both now saying they would not proceed with decentralisation as planned by the Coalition. Both parties are agreed that it makes no sense to move the central policy-making functions of Government departments out of Dublin, whatever about sending specific service delivery units to different parts of the country.

Decentralisation contributed to the losses suffered in Dublin by the Government parties in the local and European elections, with no corresponding gains in areas set to benefit from the plan. Judging by last week's Irish Times poll, the issue is still damaging the Government, and if it continues planning for decentralisation until the general election, it is asking for trouble.

http://uncivilservant.com/news_reports/from_illogical_to_absurd:_coalitions_public_service_record.html

Dinarius · 29-05-2006 11:07AM

Uncivilservant,

Thanks.

Didn't read yesterday's Sunday Tribune. Apparently, there is a report in it which says that Fianna Fail are tanking in Dublin. No surprise there - the local elections confirmed that. The question is whether they'll see the light before the next election. I think they will.

D.

eigrod · 29-05-2006 01:28PM

There was a Decentralisation piece on The Week in Politics last night with Mary Hannafin, Eamonn Gilmore & Gay Mitchell (Parlon must have declined given the pummelling he got on Prime Time last week).

It was so obvious that Hannafin knows that they have got themselves into an enormous mess on this and just don't know how to get out of it without upsetting a dozen or more constituencies around the country.

Even Gilmore and Mitchell wouldn't be drawn into what areas should be dropped because it could have the same impact on their parties.

It was almost funny to see the 3 of them just scared of mentioning even 1 town that should be dropped from the scheme.

To be fair to the presenter (Rodney Rice ? ) he pulled Mary Hannafin up a couple of times on the 10,500 figure, stating that half of them were already outside Dublin, but like those before her, she duly ignored him and continued hammering out the FF/PD mantra of "Decentralisation is Good".

Munya · 29-05-2006 06:47PM

Ehh lots of pages not sure if my lil ity bity voice will be heard but anywhos, I agree that "Dept of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources would be right at home somewhere like Cork or Galway but CAVAN is a joke!!!"

I also feel that the fact the government hasn’t felt the need to decentralize any amenities is also stupid. It’s bs telling someone that there job has now replaced itself to a place that hasn’t heard of public transport or broadband.

I don’t understand why Bertie doesn’t decentralize / centralize himself. I mean his job hardly calls for a need to be in Dublin does it? Last I heard of ‘aul Bertie he was opening a Salon in Limerick.
Someone needs to give him a Newsflash firstly he’s the Taoiseach of the Republic of Ireland not Taoiseach of Dublin and secondly being Taoiseach is not a Beauty Pageant It involves actual work! :mad:

Rael · 29-05-2006 08:18PM

Hi folks,

Quick question for the established Civil Servants out there. Do you find that there has been a large drop in promotions in the Civil Service since the notion of decentralisation was introduced.

According to an AO in my dept, she said that when she joined, about 7/8 years ago, there was loads of open and internal competitions & basically you couldn't move for all the people getting bumped up.

I'm asking because I sat both the CO & EO exams last year(I've also applied for some of the upcoming AO positions because I have the 3rd level qualifications for them) at the same time and scored highly in both. I've spoken to the Public Jobs graduate recruitment section and basically they've said that normally they would have interviewed well past my position but the Dublin panel has been put on hold by Finance until Decentralisation has been sorted.

From speaking to other people in my dept, they were in a similar position 6 years ago(did open CO & EO exams together) and they were called for interview when they were working as COs and were promoted to EO grade within 6 months of joining as a CO. they are know higher grades than EO.

Does anyone see anyway of getting promoted(don't want to throw away my career) or am I just getting worried unnecessarily ?

Rael

TempestSabre · 29-05-2006 08:25PM

Decentralise...

Its an issue to keep an eye on. If theres a drop in the number of promotions in certain areas.

holly_johnson · 29-05-2006 09:07PM

I certainly think promotional prosepcts have dropped since the announcement. Unless you're willing to decentralise.... the panels are all for the new locations, little if anything for Dublin. I think it's just a fact of life we'll have to get used to. I don't see myself progressing beyond my current grade for a long time, if at all. And with 29 years left to go, that's a long time left to stagnate. I'm in an IT grade too, so I suppose the time will come when I need to contemplate moving onwards and hopefully upwards.

EDIT: Just read this article on rte.ie:
Wonder if the official side will accept the abolition of the promotion clause?? methinks not.

FÁS workers in Dublin have voted to accept proposals which bring the dispute over decentralisation to an end.
98% of SIPTU members voted in favour of the proposals, which were put forward by the Labour Relations Commission last Friday.
The dispute at FÁS centred on claims that promotions have been made conditional on staff moving to Birr, Co Offaly.
The LRC proposal included dropping the clause relating to promotion from future contracts.
FÁS staff had been staging limited industrial action over the plans to relocate its head office.
The Government wants to move the 400 staff at FÁS head office to Birr by 2009.

NewDubliner · 29-05-2006 09:48PM

holly_johnson wrote:

I'm in an IT grade too, so I suppose the time will come when I need to contemplate moving onwards and hopefully upwards.

They've gone very quiet about the planned purge of all IT grades from Dublin, but it hasn't gone away.

The privitisation of civil service jobs has been progressing quietly in IT for some years now. The PMDS-driven anti-specialist agenda is now becoming more aggressive. I think you'll find that your IT promotion prospects will be cut off by a combination of PMDS-dogma, external recruitment of contract workers at HEO level and semi-permanent out-sourcing to majors such as Accenture.

The lack of take-up of decentralised posts & the recent failure of the DOF AP(IT) competition to find many suitable candidates will create a vacuum to be filled from the outside.

So, if you have the chance, it's onwards and outwards & maybe back inwards again as a contractor/consultant.

holly_johnson · 29-05-2006 09:51PM

NewDubliner wrote:

The lack of take-up of decentralised posts & the recent failure of the DOF AP(IT) competition to find many suitable candidates will create a vacuum to be filled from the outside.

Ironic, really, considering that's where I work, and I went for that competition but was "unsuccessful"

TempestSabre · 29-05-2006 10:01PM

FÁS workers in Dublin have voted to accept proposals which bring the dispute over decentralisation to an end....

Thats a bit misleading. The dispute was over the breaking of agreed process in changing the contracts. Not decentralisation. No other agency had such terms put in their contacts. It was basically blackmailing staff to move. All this does is put FAS back on the same footing with the other agencies.

There is another battle coming on decentralisation itself, however it will effect all the agencies not just FAS. AFAIK Siptu is not against decentralisation, but against forced decentralisation. If there was resonable choice and options open to agencies staff there would be no problem.

Its a complete mess, from every angle. Its been typically mismanaged, and will cost a fortune. What cost the disruptions thus far?

joolsveer · 29-05-2006 10:44PM

TempestSabre wrote:

Thats a bit misleading. The dispute was over the breaking of agreed process in changing the contracts. Not decentralisation. No other agency had such terms put in their contacts. It was basically blackmailing staff to move. All this does is put FAS back on the same footing with the other agencies.

I believe the HSA is in an identical position to FAS in that Finance have dictated that their contracts are changed in a similar way.

TempestSabre · 29-05-2006 10:59PM

joolsveer wrote:

I believe the HSA is in an identical position to FAS in that Finance have dictated that their contracts are changed in a similar way.

Have they got new contracts then?

utopian · 30-05-2006 08:31AM

NewDubliner wrote:

...the recent failure of the DOF AP(IT) competition to find many suitable candidates...

Are you sure about that?

NewDubliner · 30-05-2006 06:20PM

utopian wrote:

Are you sure about that?

I'll admit it's an office rumour and that 'many' is a subjective term.

The fact that the jobs were not in Dublin would have discouraged some well-qualified candidates.

Does anyone have more info?

Decentralisation

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