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The Immaculate Conception?

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  • #32
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Wicknight wrote:
    How do you know that? Are the early Christians described in the Bible as proclaiming a virgin birth?.

    Yep, in the book of Matthew. It only has to be recorded once, and prophecied once.


    Wicknight wrote:
    "almah" was the word Matthew translated to mean "virgin", when in fact it means young woman. "bethulah" means virgin

    The word used was parthenos which I have given the translation above.



    Wicknight wrote:
    Thats stretching it a bit in my view, but then again people seem quite happy to bend over backwards to fit Biblical passaged around what they want to believe. Just look at the arguments over Jesus's "brothers" and if Mary had sex after Jesus.

    BTW, I have never questioned Mary's ever virginity. This was an invention of I think, St Francis of Assissi. He went off sex completely and felt that evryone else should as well.


  • #33
    Asiaprod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭Asiaprod


    BrianCalgary wrote:
    He went off sex completely and felt that evryone else should as well.

    Huh! Did he by any chance tell us how he expected humanity to continue on or were we to just become extinct. I think you have that one wrong Brian.


  • #34
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Asiaprod wrote:
    Huh! Did he by any chance tell us how he expected humanity to continue on or were we to just become extinct. I think you have that one wrong Brian.

    I have wondered about St. Francis from time to time. I read about him years ago and could be wrong. I'm sure he did come up with Mary's ever virginity though.

    (We wouldn't become extinct we would just evolve into a self replicating being:) )


  • #35
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    BrianCalgary wrote:
    Yep, in the book of Matthew. It only has to be recorded once, and prophecied once.
    Matthew was written between 60 and 100 years after the death of Jesus. That isn't "early Christians"
    BrianCalgary wrote:
    The word used was parthenos which I have given the translation above.
    No, that is the Greek word (which does mean virgin) which caused the confusion.

    When Isaiah 7:14 was translated from Hebrew to Greek the Hebrew word "Almah" (young woman) was incorrectly translated to the Greek word "parthenos" (virgin)

    This mistranslation was repeated down the line, particularly by Matthew 1.23.

    The Isaiah prophecy does not describe a virgin birth.

    The requirement that Jesus be born of a virgin only came about later on in early Christianity due to a miss-understanding of the Isaiah 7:14 prophecy (based on the incorrectly translated Greek text)

    There is no evidence that the early (as in early early) Christians believed Jesus was born of a virgin, nor any evidence they believed he had to be born of a virgin to fufill the prophecies of the Old Testament. They were probably working off the original Hebrew Old Testament that simply says God will send a child to be born of a young woman. Which, if you believe this stuff, he did.

    http://www.messiahtruth.com/is714a.html
    http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/is/7.html


  • #36
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Almah:

    virgin, young woman
    of marriageable age
    maid or newly married

    ++++ There is no instance where it can be proved that this word designates a young woman who is not a virgin. (TWOT)

    Note the last sentence. This is the word in Isaiah 7:14.


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  • #37
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Wicknight wrote:
    When Isaiah 7:14 was translated from Hebrew to Greek the Hebrew word "Almah" (young woman) was incorrectly translated to the Greek word "parthenos" (virgin)

    This mistranslation was repeated down the line, particularly by Matthew 1.23.

    The Isaiah prophecy does not describe a virgin birth.

    The requirement that Jesus be born of a virgin only came about later on in early Christianity due to a miss-understanding of the Isaiah 7:14 prophecy (based on the incorrectly translated Greek text)

    There is no evidence that the early (as in early early) Christians believed Jesus was born of a virgin, nor any evidence they believed he had to be born of a virgin to fufill the prophecies of the Old Testament. They were probably working off the original Hebrew Old Testament that simply says God will send a child to be born of a young woman. Which, if you believe this stuff, he did.

    The Jews of Jesus' time would have used the Hebrew scriptures knowing what Almah meant. Being bilingual they certainly knew what they were writing. They lived with an oral tradition, so it was shouted from the rooftops that Jesus is messiah. Anyone who wished to counter the idea would only have to pull out one untrue prophecy. No one could. Matthew then wrote it down, while witnesses to th elife of Jesus were still alive. The evidence is there.


  • #38
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    BrianCalgary wrote:
    Almah:

    virgin, young woman
    of marriageable age
    maid or newly married

    ++++ There is no instance where it can be proved that this word designates a young woman who is not a virgin. (TWOT)

    Note the last sentence. This is the word in Isaiah 7:14.

    The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament is wrong (if thats what it says, I haven't read it).

    The word "almah" doesn't imply virgin. In Hebrew the word implies an age group, the male version is "elem" which means young man.

    The word "almah" is used in other passages of the Bible (Genesis 24:43) which, unlike the King James, modern bibles translate (correctly) as "young woman", or madian, since the sexual status or marriage status of the woman is unknown at the time and "virgin" would make no sense in that context.

    It also makes no sense in the other places it is found, such as Exodus 2:8. It would be like us, in normal conversation saying "virgin" every time we talked about a young girl. "There was a nice virgin (young girl) serving me in the shop today" "I got my hair cut by a new virgin (young girl) in the hair dressers" It doesn't make sense in that context at all.

    If you want you can assume that any woman of young age who is not married must be a virgin, and the is what the prophecy means, go ahead but there is nothing in the word itself to justify that assumption.
    BrianCalgary wrote:
    The Jews of Jesus' time would have used the Hebrew scriptures knowing what Almah meant. Being bilingual they certainly knew what they were writing. They lived with an oral tradition, so it was shouted from the rooftops that Jesus is messiah.

    Exactly. They knew "almah" didn't imply virginity, so for them Mary didn't have to be a vigin at all for Jesus to be the Messiah. Which is why you don't get any mention of a virgin birth at all until 60 years later when Matthew continued the mistranslation of the Greek text, and even then it is not mentioned in John, which appeared 15-20 years after Matthew.

    Put simply, there is no reason to believe Mary was, or had to be, a virgin. She might have been, but that fact is irrelivent


  • #39
    MeditationMom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 380 ✭✭MeditationMom


    BrianCalvary wrote:
    We wouldn't become extinct we would just evolve into a self replicating being

    You are a genius!!!

    And it would be a woman,
    as Mary has proven! :):D;):p :eek: :)


  • #40
    Asiaprod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭Asiaprod


    MeditationMom wrote:
    You are a genius!!!

    And it would be a woman,
    as Mary has proven! :):D;):p :eek: :)

    Ah, the penny dropped, or should I say the veil has lifted. Now where have I heard that before:rolleyes:


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