Decentralisation

Dinarius · 14-05-2006 10:11AM

New_Departure06 wrote:

My question still hasn't been answered - if you don't want to move there then why not commute their instead? Many tens of thousands are forced as it is to commute to Dublin from outlying areas.

Have you even bothered to look at the list of locations chosen for decentralisation and how far most of them are from Dublin?

That's why everyone has been ignoring your question.

D.

The_Conductor · 14-05-2006 10:46AM

New_Departure06 wrote:

58% of the public support decentralisation they are hardly "loony" contrary to the implications of calling decentralisation "loony" by an individual on this thread.

Horsemanure.
I have a degree in applied statistics- and I calculate statistically valid scientific surveys and weighted averages in different subject matter on a daily basis as part of my job.

There has not been any valid nationwide poll on support for decentralisation.
There has not been any public acknowledgement (or even attempt to measure) the actual costs other than property costs, associated with decentralisation.

If you are going to quote polls or statistics at us- you have to acknowledge their source so that people can have some faith in the truth or veracity of your comments (and so that we can check them out for ourselves). If you want to throw facts at people- the very least you can do show them the respect of acknowledging the source of your material.

TempestSabre · 14-05-2006 11:16AM

New_Departure06 wrote:

58% of the public support decentralisation they are hardly "loony" contrary to the implications of calling decentralisation "loony" by an individual on this thread.

As usual in Ireland most people are not really looking beyond the superficial.

14-05-2006 12:07PM

Accusations against other posters of trollery are not allowed.
It's in the charter so new dubliner please read the charter.

Zuma Do not Troll in this thread or I will ban you.

This warning applies to everyone.
Anyone I think is trolling from this point out will be banned as will anyone who doesnt use the report the post feature instead of accusing a poster of trolling.

The charter is quite clear on this.
WE(the mods of politics) regard calling other posters here trolls as simply another form of abuse - ERGO it will get a ban.

pete · 14-05-2006 12:55PM

very miffed dub wrote:

I'm a member of the PSEU and they are USELESS!!!

I couldn't agree more. I'm a strong believer in union membership, but the PSEU's complete disregard for the concerns of their Dublin membership means I regularly consider leaving the union.... usually every second Thursday when I look at the deduction from my salary that goes to them. For what, exactly?

NewDubliner · 14-05-2006 04:41PM

PSEU is split nearly evenly as follows:

1: Non-dublin staff who want to move to another non-Dublin location.
2: Dublin staff who are considering moving if they get the right location.
3: Dublin staff who do not want to move.

The biggest single cadre of non-movers is in IT, but they've suffered already from general-servicisation of their speciality and are now under siege from out-sourcing and contractors.

Victor · 14-05-2006 10:27PM

My question still hasn't been answered - if you don't want to move there then why not commute their instead? Many tens of thousands are forced as it is to commute to Dublin from outlying areas.

Tell me how long a commute from Dublin to Youghal would take.

eigrod · 15-05-2006 09:44AM

Tom Parlon is a complete and utter disgrace :

From today's Irish Times :

nions blamed over decentralisation
Mark Hennessy, Political Correspondent

Rivalries between trade unions over promotions and prized postings are holding up the Government's decentralisation plan, Minister of State for the Office of Public Works Tom Parlon has charged.

Mr Parlon, who is in charge of decentralisation, said negotiations on reforms were "going very well and could be completed soon". On Saturday, Taoiseach Bertie Ahern acknowledged that the Government had "taken too much on in one go" by declaring that it would move 10,000 civil servants out of Dublin by the end of next year.

"There are a huge amount of people who want to go, but the management of that, of who can go, what grades, and how, is a difficult exercise," he told a newspaper.

Speaking on RTE's Tubridy Tonight, the Taoiseach said that decentralisation could not be completed by 2007 - the target originally set by Charlie McCreevy when he was Minister for Finance. In reality, most State institutions abandoned the 2007 target last year, while the majority of current transfer plans are expected to conclude by the end of 2009.

However, Mr Ahern appeared to go further in his RTÉ interview when he indicated that it could take until 2012 to complete, so it is not clear now if Mr Ahern is saying that not only can the first 2007 target not be met, but also that the second unofficial one of 2009 cannot be met either. Acknowledging that the original timetable had "not made sense", Mr Parlon said: "The Taoiseach was only saying what we are all saying. So what if it takes an extra two years. It was a throwaway remark from McCreevy. Nobody intended that other than him."

He was confident that "very practical solutions" could be found to ensure that decentralisation is completed, though he said some unions are fearful of conceding ground to others.
"They are very scared that they would allow people from another union to qualify for promotion to another post. There is a lot of territoriality amongst the unions," he said.

State employees cannot transfer between the Civil Service and State agencies, such as FÁS, where workers have gone on strike in protest at the plan to move them to Birr, Co Offaly.

The Government last month scrapped its plan to transfer 100 probation officers to Navan, Co Meath, though 20 secretarial and administrative staff from the Probation and Welfare Service are to move. Denying any climbdown, Mr Parlon said the Government had promised Navan 120 jobs: "Do you think the people there care that it is probation jobs, or other jobs when it comes to cashing the cheques every week."

Meanwhile, he confirmed that Office of Public Works chairman Seán Benton, who is supposed to move to Trim, Co Meath, has insisted that he must have a Dublin office to continue to function as chairman. Minister for Social Affairs Séamus Brennan, speaking on TV3's The Political Party, said: "You know the Taoiseach, he's very honest, he says it as he sees it, and he's obviously come to the conclusion that we bit off a lot to try and move 10,000 people very quickly."

However, Fine Gael TD, Richard Bruton said "gross incompetence and not over ambition" is "the real reason for the collapse of the Government's decentralisation programme" which had created "a shambles" out of what should have been a very successful programme.

"A throwaway remark from McCreevey" - so the lives & careers of several thousand people & their families can be subject to "throwaway remarks" ?

Blaming inter-union rivalry - I guess it was only a matter of time before he came up with that one !

"Do you think the people there care that it is probation jobs, or other jobs when it comes to cashing the cheques every week." - so that's what this whole programme is about ? Thanks for clarifying that for us, Minister !!!

You are a disgrace, Minister !

Marica · 15-05-2006 10:39AM

New_Departure06 wrote:

My question still hasn't been answered - if you don't want to move there then why not commute their instead? Many tens of thousands are forced as it is to commute to Dublin from outlying areas.

If I were to go with my organisation and commute, my daily round-trip would be over 160 miles on a notoriously-dangerous single-carriageway road - there is no train service and the bus takes two and a half hours. I am studying part-time at the moment and I spend two evenings a week at lectures and a lot of my time on other evenings doing assignments and coursework and I also have a life in my spare time. Where's the advantage to me in reverse commuting?

BTW: what gain is there for towns if people commute to them from Dublin? If people are doing long commutes to get there they won't really have much time for spending money...

Victor · 15-05-2006 11:16AM

Tom Parlon wrote:

A throwaway remark from McCreevey

What was the throwaway remark?

Macy · 15-05-2006 11:38AM

Sustainable regional development is creating new jobs in these towns, not using civil and public servants to give the impression of job creation in these areas which the Government has failed.

There has never been transferability between state agencies, and between state agencies and the civil service. This is more to do with the State Agencies being the individual employer - i.e. a FAS workers contract is with FAS, not the Government. Typical FF/PD to blame the unions for this fact I suppose.

Parlon is now scrambling around looking for an out, brought about by him jumping the gun claiming credit for jobs that ain't going to go to Birr and making himself synonymous with decentralisation. To top it off, his Departments interference has kept the FAS dispute ongoing and in the news, and has seen Birr become the place that apparently no one wants to live. I bet it doesn't seem like such a vote grabber now down in Parlon Country.

fly_agaric · 15-05-2006 11:41AM

New_Departure06 wrote:

But it's okay for the culchies to have to commute to Dub of course! :rolleyes:

Most of the "culchies" commuting to Dublin from the belt in Meath, Kildare + further afield are, of course, Dublin refugees driven out by the insane property prices in the areas they grew up in!
Not saying these people aren't happy where they are living (I have a few relatives among them) but I thought the preferred local term for these people was "blow-ins"? I have seen less kind terms used on these boards also. Now they become "culchies" to suit your argument.;)

NewDubliner · 15-05-2006 05:52PM

This report of a speech by minister O'Cuiv is interesting as in his enthusiasm for the government's scheme, he overlooks cost/value for money and puts forward the already discredited arguments about poor quality of life in Dublin (it's great) and that the scheme will relieve infrastructure pressure (it will cause more congestion, not less):

Irish Independent Fri, 12 May 2006 Rural Ireland's'backward image wrong
Brian McDonald
RURAL Ireland came out fighting yesterday in the row over decentralisation plans, slamming the "misguided perception" that country towns are somehow backward. Chief executive of lobby group Irish Rural Link, Seamus Boland, also accused the government of presiding over "a PR disaster", claiming that huge damage had been done to the decentralisation plan by the public service unions rejecting it. But last night, Rural Affairs Minister Eamon O Cuiv hit back at critics of the programme to move 10,000 civil servants out of the capital to centres around the country and said that, while it was an idealistic goal, decentralisation was definitely going to happen. Addressing the annual conference of Irish Rural Link, an umbrella group for organisations and individuals lobbying for sustainable rural development, Mr Boland said that while decentralisation was undoubtedly a good idea, it had been "soured" because it was brought in without reference to the National Spatial Strategy. He deeply regretted the bad publicity that places like Birr were now getting as a result of the public service unions saying 'no' to the plan. "Right now it is a rather sad and bad story," he told conference delegates in Tullamore. Said Mr Boland: "It is undoubtedly a PR disaster for the government. The government have simply not sold it well at all. The result is that the perception has been created that rural places are somehow backward in attitudes. "The government must address this immediately. Most rural towns have high infrastructure, cheaper house prices, accessible schools and a quality of life so much better than on the eastern corridor around Dublin. "The government must now support those making the move because, more than likely, families are worried about this. They have to go to the table and sit down with the unions and iron out this problem." In his address last night Mr O Cuiv described decentralisation as the most visionary and courageous move to benefit rural Ireland since the foundation of the State. The minister rounded on Fine Gael critics of the plan querying whether the party had lost its wits and suggesting that they were desperate to win votes in Dublin. Said Mr O Cuiv: "While rural communities will undoubtedly benefit, Dublin will also benefit, with pressure on services reduced." He directed most of his trenchant criticism at Fine Gael's front bench spokesman, Richard Bruton for proclaiming at their ard fheis the party would not move "the core planning units away from the capital where they must contribute to coherent policy making." The minister added: "Let's be very clear about this. This government's belief is that the General's place is with his troops." "Fine Gael, on the other hand, seem to have a vision of a small army of Sir Humphrey Applebys safe and secure in Dublin, far away from their staff in the regions while they postulate on government policy in a rarefied atmosphere of a particular kind of Dublin 4 mindset." Brian McDonald

Dinarius · 15-05-2006 07:26PM

Eamon O'Cuiv was exposed for the total ass that he is on Five Seven Live today.

Last week he was interviewed by Rachel English and, in a pathetic attempt to show how he was doing his bit for decentralisation, he cited the success of moving twenty Pobail jobs to the West. He went on to say that the job was 'half done' and another 20 would follow.

Pobail contacted RTE and said the following:

1. Pobail is expanding into the regions and the twenty jobs in the West were new jobs. No one has moved to them from Dublin and no one will be.

2. Pobail is a body made up of neither civil nor public servants.

3. They have no idea why Pobail is listed as part of the government's decentralisation process.

This correspondence was read out by Rachel English between 6.15 and 6.30, should anyone want to check it on RTE's listen again feature.

Finally, Pat Kenny interviewed Mark Hennessy this morning on radio. I missed most of it, but it seemed resignatory in tone. Hennessy's view is that if the opposition get elected next year their own backbenchers will be screaming for its completion.

McCreevy must be dining out nightly on this in Brussels.

Lastly, I'd like to compile a list of facts relating that would summarise the fallacy of this process as currently conceived. If anyone comes up with any, I'll add them to this post.

To get the ball rolling...........

1. Two thirds of civil servants already work outside Dublin.

2. Dublin's population is increasing at a rate of approximately 30,000 per annum, so for the Taoiseach to stand up in the Dail and say that we need decentralisation to ease congestion is simply a lie. The population has increased by about 100,000 since McCreey made Tom Parlon weep.

3. As former Minister for Justice, John O'Donogue's transfer of the Legal Aid Board to (guess where?) Kerry has been a fiasco.

4.??????????

D.

NewDubliner · 15-05-2006 07:34PM

Dinarius wrote:

2. Dublin's population is increasing at a rate of approximately 30,000 per annum, so for the Taoiseach to stand up in the Dail and say that we need decentralisation to ease congestion is simply a lie. The population has increased by about 100,000 since McCreey made Tom Parlon weep.

The only way decentralisation can relieve congestion is if the city-centre offices are left empty and staff are not allowed to sell their houses.

4.??????????

The most enthusiastic 'volunteers' don't live or work in Dublin.

5. 10,600 people have not volunteered. they've expressed an interest in moving if they can get the location & job they want.

The_Conductor · 15-05-2006 11:29PM

Just out of curiousity- how many of the 10,560 "volunteers" are in actual fact in Dublin at all?

Is there a figure on what percentage of this is decentralisation, and what percentage is purely relocation (irrespective of the number "posts" that are moving)?

Any more interesting articles on the public backlash in Trim/Birr/Portarlington/Longford town/ Athenry etc?

pete · 16-05-2006 09:58AM

NewDubliner wrote:

5. 10,600 people have not volunteered. they've expressed an interest in moving if they can get the location & job they want.

And how many of the expressions of interest from Dublin people were made purely to safeguard an existing post / location with no intention of ever moving?

Speaking from my own experience, i'd say about 50%....

New_Departure06 · 16-05-2006 03:53PM

Should be remembered too that we have successfully decentralised in the past, e.g. Dept of Transport, Dept of Social Welfare. It has worked and will work in some form.

NewDubliner · 16-05-2006 06:07PM

It worked then, (eventually) but at a cost. Nobody know what the economic benefit has been or how much it cost in the end.

If it was successful, it is because nobody knows what the original goals were and if they were met.

The failed & costly decentralisation of the Legal Aid Board to Cahirciveen is already well known.

Social Welfare & Revenue was discussed at a heariing in 2004:http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2004/07/29/story179554930.asp

....Ms Lacey and Revenue Commissioners collector general Liam Irwin highlighted previous decentralisation programmes. Both said that these had been a success but there had been transitional difficulties.

Half the posts in the Collectors General office in Limerick had to be filled by promotions because of a low take-up of transfers.

Both agencies had to recruit new staff to fill up to 20% of the positions.

These costs have not been predicted by Tom Parlon & the taxpayer does not know how much he/she will have to pay in extra taxes this time, to fund the project. The figure of 900m euro that has been revealed is for bare buildings.

The cost of IT, furnishing, re-training, productivity loss, promotions extra staff have not been estimated.

The looming loss of most IT expertese will lead to more consultants/contractors being hired.

What will the cost be this time? Will it be worth it? How will the cost be controlled and how will the benefits be measured? If it's costing too much, how will we know and how can it be stopped?

SeanW · 16-05-2006 07:48PM

New_Departure06 wrote:

Should be remembered too that we have successfully decentralised in the past, e.g. Dept of Transport, Dept of Social Welfare. It has worked and will work in some form.

Uh huh.

200 people have applied to be "decentralised" from Longford mainly to Carrick on Shannon. Only 150 have applied to be decentralised to Longford from Dublin.

So for this region, its really been a huge boon. Decentralisation has been one of the stupidest and worst largesses of this government since ... well ... anything.

Sand · 16-05-2006 09:24PM

So for this region, its really been a huge boon. Decentralisation has been one of the stupidest and worst largesses of this government since ... well ... anything.

Theyre basically stealing taxpayers money to fund their re-election campaigns down in the countryside. Sly, corrupt gombeenism at its best. Even Haughey could only dream of a stroke like this. The sad thing is I cant vote to punish the government for this, because FG said theyd do exactly the same thing in the governments shoes.

New_Departure06 · 16-05-2006 09:34PM

I'll tell you....you're lucky you don't have Josef Stalin planning your decentralisation...then where would you be!

TempestSabre · 16-05-2006 09:40PM

New_Departure06 wrote:

I'll tell you....you're lucky you don't have Josef Stalin planning your decentralisation...then where would you be!

Probabably in a mass grave.

Sand · 16-05-2006 09:47PM

I wouldnt rule anything out - Bertie is a socialist after all.

pete · 16-05-2006 10:03PM

The first half of tonight's Prime Time was covering the complete lack of planning for the Decentralisation fiasco. Should be up here shortly: http://www.rte.ie/news/primetime.html

I want to leave the PSEU and join the AHCPS. A union that actually cares about its member's interests enough to go on TV and confront a Minister. Imagine that.

caldwelk · 16-05-2006 10:33PM

Parlon is a muppet and a disgrace. He refuses to acknowledge the major problems that are staring him in the face. This is a re-run of the electronic voting fiasco but will cost a hell of a lot more.

One issue that I think has not been highlighted is that if there are 5,000 civil servants remaining in Dublin doing "meaningfull" work, where are they going to work if the Government is selling off all the Dublin properties to pay for decentralisation?
Additional dublin properties will have to be purchased or existing ones extended to facilitate them so there will be little or no financial benefit. In fact the extra administartion involved as well as furnishing them could lead to a net loss on the project.
Also if there will be meaningfull work for 5,000 civil servants, who is doing this work now?

Parlon, the lights are on but there's nobody home!!!

kwinabeeste · 16-05-2006 10:40PM

Haven't really read all the thread, but i was a civil servant...decentralisation kinda forced my hand! I was an AO for 4 years and am still in my mid 20's and hoped to perhaps get promotion in a few years.

My job was being decentralised and was kinda specialised. I was thinking of changing jobs but when I found out that my job would be decentralised and found where I would be going it was the final nail in the coffin! I didn't want to do the new job as it wouldn't have been as interestin or as challenging as the job that I left.

Decentralisation isn't the worst idea in theory and I supported the idea on coffee breaks for the 1st while. Then chatting to older people with houses and families I changed my mind. Also the AO exchange scheme also suffered as many AO's couldn't find swaps or managers weren't prepared to allow them leave with the uncertainty of the plans. Also the fact that if I got decentralised to somewhere and then got promoted I could have to up roots and move to a new location. Depending on how successful I could have been that mite not have been the only time, something that I don't think is stated enough!

I am lucky to be young enough to leave the civil service and have got a real good job in the private sector, but there are many who won't be able to leave due to length of service and family committments and thats why decentralisation won't work and why the public service will suffer in the long run!

utopian · 16-05-2006 10:53PM

caldwelk wrote:

Additional dublin properties will have to be purchased or existing ones extended to facilitate them so there will be little or no financial benefit. In fact the extra administartion involved as well as furnishing them could lead to a net loss on the project.

The additional Dublin properties may not be what you imagine - just because no-one will be forced out of Dublin doesn't mean that no-one will be forced out of the city centre.

NewDubliner · 16-05-2006 10:57PM

utopian wrote:

The additional Dublin properties may not be what you imagine - just because no-one will be forced out of Dublin doesn't mean that no-one will be forced out of the city centre.

True, somewhere with poor public transport, and no parking, too far to cycle from anywhere would be the ideal white-walling site.

caldwelk wrote:

Parlon ..... refuses to acknowledge the major problems that are staring him in the face.

His latest 'solution' is that there should be transferability between stage agencies. He seemed to think that FAS and HSE staff would be interchangeable. :eek:

I'm not sure that I felt sorry for the speculators in Birr who've been preparing to cash in on demand for housing.

When confronted with the question of duplication & a large cadre of people left in Dublin after their jobs had been taken away, Tom Parlon said 'the Government will not let this happen'. Nobody asked him what he meant by this, some possibilities come to mind:

1: Dublin based staff will be allowed do the work in Dublin but will be required to order their groceries from Birr.

2: The government intends to make the scheme compulsory, as happened in Myanmar:

At precisely 6:37 a.m. on Sunday, according to one report - with a shout of "Let's go!" - a convoy of trucks began a huge, expensive and baffling transfer of the government of Myanmar from the capital, Yangon, to a secret mountain compound 320 kilometers to the north.

Diplomats and foreign analysts were left groping for an explanation, and in a country as secretive and eccentric as Myanmar, the leading theories had to do with astrological predictions and fears of invasion by the United States.

The relocation, which was later announced to reporters and foreign diplomats but has not yet been announced to the public, had been rumored for years. But according to reports from Yangon, officials and civil servants were given only a day or two to pack and say goodbye to their families.

When they arrived at the new site, called Pyinmana, they found it still under construction, with shortages of water, telephone lines and even sleeping quarters and food, according to family members quoted by news services and exile groups.

.....The junta's physical move into a fortified retreat reflects what many analysts say is a bunker mentality in the face of what may seem like a bewildering and antagonistic world.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/10/news/burma.php

very miffed dub · 17-05-2006 01:22AM

I've just finished watching tonight's Prime Time programme - thanks for the link Pete

The programme re-emphasises the fact that PARLON IS A MUPPET and should be decentralised to the moon

He said that there were clearly problems among higher grade civil servants (who have years of experience) not wanting to decentralise 'clearly there are less people involved in the higher level and there are bigger problems there. The bulk of the people involved in the lower grades are prepared to move'

Will Ireland's decentralised civil service be staffed by under qualified Clerical Officers? Maybe they'll be promoted !! Apologies to any CO's reading.

Most of the staff that have come into our section have admitted that they couldn't care less about the job. The only thing that incentivised them was that they would be going home. A few have also indicated that they would apply for a transfer to another post in the decentralised location immediately because the work in the section was too stressful!!!

Costly mistakes are being made on a daily basis because of lack of experience and specialist knowledge. Who pays for these mistakes.......YOU, the taxpayer!!

SCRAP DECENTRALISATION NOW !!

Decentralisation

Comments