Decentralisation

Dinarius · 24-04-2006 05:30PM

"....But it has happened here before. Staff in the old Land Commission continued to punch in every day for years even though the commission had been closed down. Even today there are a few hundred staff in the Department of Agriculture who are surplus to requirements following the closure of a number of EU grant schemes....."

Hasn't something similar happened with John O'Donoghue's masterstroke (when he was Minister for Justice) of moving the Legal Aid Board to Cahirciveen? Perhaps someone with the inside track on this Kerry Joke can enlighten us.

D.

NewDubliner · 24-04-2006 08:16PM

Dinarius wrote:

Hasn't something similar happened with John O'Donoghue's masterstroke (when he was Minister for Justice) of moving the Legal Aid Board to Cahirciveen? Perhaps someone with the inside track on this Kerry Joke can enlighten us.D.

I think the actual work is still being done in Dublin by the 'redundant' staff while the new staff learn the ropes. That said, there was a report that since the people working in Cahirciveen, live in Killarney, many have applied to 'decentralise' to Killarney. So, new trainees will have to be found for Cahirciveen and the staff in Dublin will be needed for a while yet.

pete · 24-04-2006 08:35PM

There will be no whitewalling and no duplication, with workers doing two jobs.

i'm guessing he meant to say

...no duplication, with two workers doing one job.

The_Conductor · 24-04-2006 09:49PM

Dinarius wrote:

Even today there are a few hundred staff in the Department of Agriculture who are surplus to requirements following the closure of a number of EU grant schemes....."

Yes, there are a load of us on secondment to the Dept. of Justice for running the Pulse system (half our Castlebar office). Thats before you mention our Dublin based staff- all barr 20 of whom have been declared surplus to requirements. The highest ranking officer we are due to have in Dublin is a single EO in the DVO in Tallaght.

Meanwhile Personnel are only allowing those staff members who filled in a D-CAF application form attend open days in other departments (e.g. the Revenue Commissioners open day on Thursday in Bedford Hall). Soooooo- irrespective of whether you have anything to do or not- you will not be let go anywhere (irrespective of your wishes) unless you previously agreed to either decentralise or move to another Department. I am aware of lots of people who have not filled out the DCAF on a matter of principle, who are now being disallowed to attend briefing sessions in other departments.

Strange days.....

TempestSabre · 24-04-2006 10:03PM

Seem strange that the determining factor on filling positions is not how skilled or qualified a person is to do the role, but where they wish to do it.

Equally it seems that by "volunteering" to stay in Dublin you are giving up all opportunities of promotion. So basically your career is over.

NewDubliner · 27-04-2006 08:48PM

TempestSabre wrote:

Equally it seems that by "volunteering" to stay in Dublin you are giving up all opportunities of promotion. So basically your career is over.

According to all the plans I've seen, Dublin staff who want to remain in Dublin but who 'are committed to decentralisation' will play an important role in training in their replacements, after which 'they will be looked after'. What does that mean?

Anyway, here's news on more money for 'Parlon Country' from every press-relations-officer's best friend, the 'Irish Independent':

THE State is sitting on a property goldmine in the capital.

With developers prepared to fork out up to €80m an acre in Dublin 4, a review of what is left over is well underway by different government bodies.

Over €300m has come into the exchequer coffers from the sale of surplus or underused state properties, with a number of other deals in the pipeline.

Last November the Office of Public Works set a new Irish land record by selling the two-acre site of the former veterinary college in Dublin 4 for €171.5m.

On Friday it will sell an adjacent 0.4 acre site, currently occupied by the Department of Justice, for at least €30m.

But these sales could be only the beginning of a much richer seam that will unlock hundreds of property millions over the coming years.

In Donnybrook, CIE owns seven acres of land at its bus depot which, if redeveloped correctly, could prove hugely valuable.

An outright sale of this site could raise over €200m.

However, the bus depot is a vital piece of infrastructure which would be difficult to replace.

It is thought that CIE might be considering allowing development on top of its depot as it is already doing at a site off Abbey Street in Dublin city centre.

Less than a mile down the road from CIE's bus depot, UCD sits on 320 acres.

UCD is unlikely to sell off any significant tract of land but it could enter joint ventures with developers.

It is involved in a joint venture with developers to build apartments on land it owns in Clonskeagh. Under the terms of this deal it has given the developers three acres of land and in return it will get around 66 apartments on the land.

It is also looking at bringing in private backers to fund a 10-year development plan which could cost up to €400m. This plan includes a 300-bed conference hotel, swimming pool and arthouse cinema.

Meanwhile, the Government is continuing to make the most of its property portfolio by cashing in on the property boom.

Junior Finance Minister Tom Parlon has presided over €300m worth of sales in the past three years. These funds have mainly been directed towards building and leasing new offices under the decentralisation programme.

There are a number of other sales in the pipeline and decentralisation will also free up a number of lucrative properties in Dublin.

Once the Department of Education relocates to the midlands, its headquarters on Marlborough Street will be freed up for the Department of Health.

This will allow its present headquarters, Hawkins House, to be redeveloped or sold.

The State could also make anything up to €2bn from the sale of Mountjoy Prison for residential and commercial development.

Minister Parlon predicted it could be one of the most lucrative property deals in the history of the State.

Tom Lyons and Fionann Sheahan

luckat · 27-04-2006 11:34PM

The sad thing about decentralisation is that it *could* be such a good thing - if the decentralising were to other cities, rather than country areas.

Friend of a friend recently bought a house in Co Galway - a new four-bed detached house with a big garden, in a lovely countrysidey estate, facing on to a ringfort. His commute to lár-caithreach na Gaillimhe is 20 to 30 minutes, a nice traffic-free drive. There are good schools locally and in the city. I'd move there in a breath, if I could get work in Galway.

Same isn't true if you're going to a little tiny country town.

The whole point of decent-ing is to bring purchasing power into FF constituencies. It's a good idea that's been badly thought through.

uncivilservant · 10-05-2006 10:41PM

Well it's been quite the busy few days for the Decentralisation programme...

Apparently the Taoiseach believes that all it takes to relieve Dublin traffic congestion is to send 4,500 civil servants beyond the pale. Remarkable.

Meanwhile, it appears it will cost the exchequer €65million a year to pay the salaries of specialist civil servants (and only the specialists) remaining in Dublin while their dopplegangers are off doing their bit easing Dublin's traffic congestion elsewhere in the country. You can read more about this fiasco on the IMPACT website.

And to top it all off, OPW has announced it will commence its own "decentralisation" programme, quite possibly by simply changing a sign above a door. It seems they are to take in some Department of Agriculture waifs and strays in Mayo who are currenly "surplus to requirements" in their existing Department and have applied to "decentralise" to their existing location. Let's hope the Claremorris economy reaps the benefits of all the "extra jobs".

Quite literally, a master stroke.

TempestSabre · 10-05-2006 11:17PM

Ms O'Donnell said the union had put its proposals to Departmental of Finance officials last month, "but we were told but they said they could not respond to the union's suggestions as they were 'political decisions'".

Decentralisation at any cost? or votes at any cost?

NewDubliner · 11-05-2006 06:32AM

uncivilservant wrote:

Apparently the Taoiseach believes that all it takes to relieve Dublin traffic congestion is to send 4,500 civil servants beyond the pale. Remarkable.

He's really lost the plot. Once the offices are sold, new commuters will replace the old ones - traffic will get worse not better, as a result.

Then his remark:

I don’t see what people have against parts of the country in his House.

- this shows he's no grasp if the issues involved.

Latest is that they've scrapped the move of the probation officers. No explanation has been give as to why it's taken so long to figure ut that it was a stupid idea to begin with.

Macy · 11-05-2006 07:45AM

If Berties so keen on moving down the country, he should scrap the current plan and start with the Houses of the Oireachtas....

Hopefully the Probation Officers is just the start of a row back of the agencies that clearly make no sense to move and in which staff have no interest in moving. Seeing as Bertie accepts there's no appetite in the state agencies, Parlon should be put back in his box, and they should be next off the list.

NewDubliner · 11-05-2006 05:12PM

Tom Parlon is quoted as saying:

"The absolute assurance given by the Government from the outset is that no civil servant will lose their job," added Mr Parlon, who has agreed to meet Impact later this month to discuss the move.

The Fás staff who are being pressed to transfer to his constituency are not Civil Servants, they're Public Servants.

Small wonder the staff are in revolt.

eigrod · 11-05-2006 05:26PM

NewDubliner wrote:

Tom Parlon is quoted as saying:The Fás staff who are being pressed to transfer to his constituency are not Civil Servants, they're Public Servants.

Small wonder the staff are in revolt.

He also said on Morning Ireland that this initiative is not about moving people, but moving posts [ I'm paraphrasing there, but that is what I understood him to have said ].

I can't believe how he is getting away with saying some of the things he says. At no point has he said what those left in Dublin will be doing when their "posts" have moved and the anti-decentralisation lobby seem to be banging on the wrong door by citing promotions....they should be saying about the absolute waste of Human Resources and thus Public Money that will ensue by paid employees sitting in Dublin doing nothing.....not to mention the psychological effect this will have on those individuals.

Dinarius · 11-05-2006 05:53PM

It is very interesting to compare the relative impact (pun intended) of the public and civil service unions.

Of course, having sold their members down the river (Please! Please! Please! remember this when some idiot puts himself forward for re-election in any of the Civil Service unions. Use your vote wisely.) the Civil Service unions have to pretty much sit tight. IMPACT on the other hand are fighting tough. Good on them.

Lots of coverage today on both Joe Duffy and Five Seven Live.

Ahern knows better than anyone that elections are won and lost in Dublin. Holding the futures of thousands of civil servants to ransom, in order to force through the transfer of about 6,000 is an outrageous slur on everything the civil service stands for. I can't wait for one of his morons to arrive on my doorstep next year.

D.

NewDubliner · 11-05-2006 07:36PM

The news on the purging of all IT work from Dublin has been very quiet of late & not a peep has been heard of 'World Class Data-Centers'.

Then there's the strange situation of programmers and sysetms analysts working in IT, who, since the PSEU sell-out, are general-service. These are being classified as 'IT Specialists' for decentralisation purposes & will probably be blocked from an early escape.

I half-heard a rumour on on the Luas that the DOF competition for AP (IT) in Kildare failed to find any suitable candidates for appointment/promotion, anyone know if it's true?

publicjobs.ie is advertising for AOs in IT.

Macy · 12-05-2006 11:51AM

eigrod wrote:

I can't believe how he is getting away with saying some of the things he says. At no point has he said what those left in Dublin will be doing when their "posts" have moved and the anti-decentralisation lobby seem to be banging on the wrong door by citing promotions....they should be saying about the absolute waste of Human Resources and thus Public Money that will ensue by paid employees sitting in Dublin doing nothing.....not to mention the psychological effect this will have on those individuals.

SIPTU have been raising what happens to those that stay, but the actual FAS dispute is over the promotional issue - since that's the case SIPTU won in the Labour Court, the recommendation of which Finance are refusing to let FAS Management implement (so hence the industrial action). Makes you wonder the intelligence of Parlon and Cowen, when they could make this dispute end and be out of the media in no time

Dinarius wrote:

IMPACT on the other hand are fighting tough. Good on them.

However, it would be nice of McLoone to be as vocal as O'Donnell on the issue...

I believe the CPSU and PSEU dublin membership are equally anti this, but some of the tatics employed to supress this resistance, or even the debate in these two unions should worry their whole membership (affected by decentralisation or not).

TempestSabre · 12-05-2006 12:34PM

Is the issue promotional? I thought it was that they had changed the contracts without agreement breaking previous agreements with the unions. The result of which is that promotions are effectively blocked, and that decentralisation is effectly non voluntary. The semi state staff do not have the transfer options of the civil service. Maybe thats being pedantic.

New_Departure06 · 12-05-2006 01:27PM

Move!

Hotblack Desiato · 12-05-2006 01:35PM

New_Departure06 wrote:

Move!
__________________
"We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible. The long usurpation of that right by a foreign people and government has not extinguished the right, nor can it ever be extinguished except by the destruction of the Irish people." (1916 Proclamation)

We declare the right of the people of Dublin to the ownership of Dublin, and to the unfettered control of Dublin's destiny, to be sovereign and indefeasible. The long usurpation of that right by a rural people and government has not extinguished the right, nor can it ever be extinguished except by the destruction of the Dublin people.

Hotblack Desiato · 12-05-2006 01:43PM

Macy wrote:

I believe the CPSU and PSEU dublin membership are equally anti this, but some of the tatics employed to supress this resistance, or even the debate in these two unions should worry their whole membership (affected by decentralisation or not).

Too right.

The PSEU in particular have been put to shame by AHCPS, IMPACT and SIPTU and maintain the ludicrous policy of being "neither for nor against decentralisation" in spite of the fact that thousands of Dublin members are seeing their careers being sold down the river.

TempestSabre · 12-05-2006 01:43PM

New_Departure06 wrote:

Move!

Is that a sound bit vs a sound byte?

zuma · 12-05-2006 05:03PM

I have not read the entire thread as its HUGE....but I say they should move or loose their job!

If it was a private company that decided to move somewhere else in Ireland then people wouldnt have a choice!

TempestSabre · 12-05-2006 06:34PM

A private company wouldn't be so wasteful with share holders money. Moving a company to an unattractive location, which will cost more money operationally over the coming decades and losing people with decades of experience, all for the sake of gaining a few votes. But then the politicians aren't paying for it, the taxpayer is. You might aswell give everyone early retirement, did a big hole in the ground and burn about a billion euro.

The_Conductor · 12-05-2006 08:59PM

zuma wrote:

I have not read the entire thread as its HUGE....but I say they should move or loose their job!

If it was a private company that decided to move somewhere else in Ireland then people wouldnt have a choice!

I worked for a private company prior to joining the civil service. My company moved from Sandyford Industrial Estate to beyond Swords. In recognition of this I was given an additional allowance in recognition of my having to travel a greater distance (if I chose to stay with the company). It worked out at about 300 a month after tax.

Decentralisation is allegedly an entirely voluntary activity with *no* financial recompense to those who *choose* to decentralise. On the contrary- the implications of not decentralising are such that far from it being a voluntary activity for a lot of people, we are instead being coerced.

I resigned from my job in the private sector and took a job in the civil service accepting a 10,000 drop in gross pay (when my job was once again being moved- this time to India though). I was willing to take a 10,000 cut in pay- this was a price I was willing to pay for security. That security I now find does not exist. Assurances that you will be treated "in an equitable manner" mean absolutely nothing. Ditto suggestions that we all stay quiet until the election is over- so as not to rock the political boat. I'm not a politician, I don't care tuppence for the promises of politicians- unfortunately I've heard a few too many broken promises.

I am not going to repeat everything in this thread again.

Did you know there are 997 couples in the civil service among those scheduled to be decentralised. And further that in the majority of these cases that the families will now have both parents working over 80 miles apart from each other (there being no guarantee that people will be offered positions outside of their own departments, and in the case of people who joined the service in the last few years they may be contractually obliged to decentralise to particular locations. In my own case my fiancee is contractually obliged to decentralise to Dundalk, while I have been told I will not be offered a position there (while my own job is going to Portlaoise). My fiancee does not drive. She has a seriously ill parent who she would like to live reasonably close by. Decentralisation is not an option in our case. Resigning and looking for jobs elsewhere appears to be what we may have to do.

A lot of people made choices, and sacrifices, to take jobs in the civil service.
Statements like yours belittle the hard work that a lot of people do.

NewDubliner · 12-05-2006 09:23PM

zuma wrote:

I have not read the entire thread as its HUGE....but I say they should move or loose their job!

If it was a private company that decided to move somewhere else in Ireland then people wouldnt have a choice!

Perhaps you've just popped in for a bit of drive-by trolling?

Most of the thread deals with countering the lies & spin that the scheme's proponents have employed to persuade the unfortunate taxpayers of this country that the plan is somehow worth the billions in extra taxes they'll have to pay to fund it.

If it was a private company, the project would have been scrapped by now as it has no cost-benefit justification.

New_Departure06 · 13-05-2006 12:23AM

Did you know there are 997 couples in the civil service among those scheduled to be decentralised. And further that in the majority of these cases that the families will now have both parents working over 80 miles apart from each other (there being no guarantee that people will be offered positions outside of their own departments, and in the case of people who joined the service in the last few years they may be contractually obliged to decentralise to particular locations. In my own case my fiancee is contractually obliged to decentralise to Dundalk, while I have been told I will not be offered a position there (while my own job is going to Portlaoise). My fiancee does not drive. She has a seriously ill parent who she would like to live reasonably close by. Decentralisation is not an option in our case. Resigning and looking for jobs elsewhere appears to be what we may have to do.

Well if you are not willing to move then why not just commute to the new locations? You seem to want to have your cake and eat it!

I think industrial action over this issue could actually help the govt in rural constituencies as it will be seen as evidence the govt ia prepared to ruffle feathers to get decentralisation.

zuma · 13-05-2006 12:59AM

NewDubliner wrote:

Perhaps you've just popped in for a bit of drive-by trolling?

Is that your attempt to claim the high moral ground?

Look, move or loose your job!
Then again the government is too scared to start firing people, even if they deserve it!

So what do you propose the people who refuse to leave Dublin do as the idea of decentralisation isnt going to disappear anytime soon!

Hotblack Desiato · 13-05-2006 02:33AM

How would you like a government decree ordering you to move to the other end of the country?
It's different when it's other people, isn't it.
As a taxpayer you should be questioning what the implications are going to be of the most expensive vote-buying exercise ever conducted.
The section I work in (not due to decentralise) has already suffered a serious loss of expertise as a result of decentralisation transfers, resulting in increased use of consultants and more expenditure of taxpayers' money to do the same work. Clever eh.

NewDubliner · 13-05-2006 06:39AM

zuma wrote:

Is that your attempt to claim the high moral ground?

Look, move or loose your job!

You've made no effort to understand the issues and you've ignored the important issues that have been raised since your posting. Why should anyone take you seriously?

The current plan will add to traffic problems in Dublin, it will mean increased taxes for everyone and lower public service efficiency. In the towns it favours, it will drive up prices and only have a marginal benefit on local employment.

Why are you in favour of the current decentralisation scheme?

Give reasons.

zuma wrote:

So what do you propose the people who refuse to leave Dublin do as the idea of decentralisation isnt going to disappear anytime soon!

Make sure that the truth about the current project is known to the electorate.

uncivilservant · 13-05-2006 09:57AM

TAOISEACH Bertie Ahern admits his Government's decentralisation plan is in trouble and management of it is "a difficult exercise". For the first time, he conceded that moving 10,600 civil servants to more than 50 locations outside Dublin was too big a project for the time allowed.

From today's Irish Independent.

Perhaps now he might concede that 10,600 "posts" to 50 locations is just never going to happen.

Decentralisation

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