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Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026
About illegally downloaded materials...
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20-04-2006 06:11PM#1I just got thinking about the boards.ie and individual forum policies regarding the discussion of Warez/illegal downloads etc. after the closure of this thread by Karl.
Firstly, before I start anything I'd like to say that this is not a criticism of the moderation of any individual forum and certainly not the abilities of Karl Hungus; I appreciate that the discussion of illegal material is a tightrope in itself and no one can be blamed for being overly cautious rather than overly lax.
From a legal point of view boards.ie could, as is my understanding, get in a lot of trouble by allowing people to post links to p2p clients, torrent sites etc. that hosted illegal downloads of any nature, so obviously when someone asks where they can get a certain something they should be dealt with in a serious manner, just like anyone offering the same should also be dealt with... however there does seem to be inconsistencies across different forums and I was wondering if it would be a good idea to discuss the issue amongst ourselves and see if a set policy can be agreed upon on what is a pretty serious matter; on the same hand the different approaches may be for valid reasons and should be kept that way, but I think it would be good to make things as clear as possible so that people don't think they can do something when they cannot (even though they get away with it elsewhere).
OK; it seems to come down to this: asking for or offering illegal files is a no-no, and rightly so... so discussing where anyone can get illegal files is not allowed. Now, the difference of approach seems to lie in the following; some forums allow discussion based around material that was obviously obtained illegally while others do not. An example being the thread linked above, unless someone did and I missed it, no one linked to or asked where to get the Tool album, but people were all saying they'd heard it with many (including myself) making it obvious that they had not obtained it legally. The thread was locked and it was stated that there should only be a new one when it can be proven that those commenting on the release can only do so in a totally legal fashion
... at the same time in the TV forum(s) the discussion of programming that was quite obviously obtained illegally is allowed once no linkage/requests are made, in fact forums like Lost and PTC are based heavily around the discussion of shows "imported" from US websites.
Anyway, what do people think? In my opinion it is silly to try and ban people for discussing illegally obtained material because it just leads to the "my cousin" stuff swiftly followed by "I did get it legally" claims; now I know in some cases (like the tool one) it's different because the material in question is completely unavailable regardless of where you live, but it could just as easily turn into "my cousin works at their record label and gave me a listen" crap.
In the end, anyone who knows how to work a computer and has the internet can and will download something, and while boards.ie shouldn't help them it would be ignorant to assume it doesn't happen, I'm also finding it hard to see if there would be any legal avenue for boards.ie to be taken from by allowing the discussion of illegally copied material because they are not hosting or encouraging criminal behaviour they are just allowing the discussion after the fact... it would be a kin to banning any threads in AH that are like the "have you ever stolen anything from work" type.
If it's a case that each forum has its own specific rules on the issue for different purposes then perhaps the charters could be edited to reflect the varying degrees of moderation:Rock/Metal Charter wrote:Any discussion on the illegal download of copyrighted material is out of the questionTelevision Charter wrote:Infact try to stay away from discussion of downloading altogether.Post edited by Shield on0
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,119 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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Right on you are Maynard james Keaton.basquille wrote:Don't know what you mean... i have actual cousins who send me this stuff! :rolleyes:
Discussion of downloads is pretty much unavoidable.. discussion of where to get it certainly is though and shouldn't be tolerated!
That's my philosophy.
I am quite interested in this topic, I was thinking about it after Karl locked the thread.
Banning things will of course lead to things like what I said on that thread, as you said;
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=51239318&postcount=152
If something is unavoidable should it be allowed to be discussed though, that is not really a reason...
I don't see how boards cpould get into any trouble for something that cannot be proven such as what you say but it is the admins views on whether thay want that here or not that is all that matters.0 -
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Tar.Aldarion wrote:Right on you are Maynard james Keaton.
I am quite interested in this topic, I was thinking about it after Karl locked the thread.
Banning things will of course lead to things like what I said on that thread, as you said;
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=51239318&postcount=152
If something is unavoidable should it be allowed to be discussed though, that is not really a reason...
I don't see how boards cpould get into any trouble for something that cannot be proven such as what you say but it is the admins views on whether thay want that here or not that is all that matters.
That's just it, in my opinion cutting down comments which are made in relation to material obtained illegally is impractical and leads to inconsistencies (just because material is available legally doesn't mean everyone who comments on it has it through these methods). Wouldn't it be better to bring the line back to the encouragement of the illegal act, disciplining someone for admitting to (but not encouraging or condoning) a form of theft can't change the fact that it happened, it just damages the actual genuine discussion that goes on as a result (which is not about illegal downloads)0 -
flogen wrote:I just got thinking about the boards.ie and individual forum policies regarding the discussion of Warez/illegal downloads etc. after the closure of this thread by Karl.
Firstly, before I start anything I'd like to say that this is not a criticism of the moderation of any individual forum and certainly not the abilities of Karl Hungus; I appreciate that the discussion of illegal material is a tightrope in itself and no one can be blamed for being overly cautious rather than overly lax.
From a legal point of view boards.ie could, as is my understanding, get in a lot of trouble by allowing people to post links to p2p clients, torrent sites etc. that hosted illegal downloads of any nature, so obviously when someone asks where they can get a certain something they should be dealt with in a serious manner, just like anyone offering the same should also be dealt with... however there does seem to be inconsistencies across different forums and I was wondering if it would be a good idea to discuss the issue amongst ourselves and see if a set policy can be agreed upon on what is a pretty serious matter; on the same hand the different approaches may be for valid reasons and should be kept that way, but I think it would be good to make things as clear as possible so that people don't think they can do something when they cannot (even though they get away with it elsewhere).
OK; it seems to come down to this: asking for or offering illegal files is a no-no, and rightly so... so discussing where anyone can get illegal files is not allowed. Now, the difference of approach seems to lie in the following; some forums allow discussion based around material that was obviously obtained illegally while others do not. An example being the thread linked above, unless someone did and I missed it, no one linked to or asked where to get the Tool album, but people were all saying they'd heard it with many (including myself) making it obvious that they had not obtained it legally. The thread was locked and it was stated that there should only be a new one when it can be proven that those commenting on the release can only do so in a totally legal fashion... at the same time in the TV forum(s) the discussion of programming that was quite obviously obtained illegally is allowed once no linkage/requests are made, in fact forums like Lost and PTC are based heavily around the discussion of shows "imported" from US websites.
Anyway, what do people think? In my opinion it is silly to try and ban people for discussing illegally obtained material because it just leads to the "my cousin" stuff swiftly followed by "I did get it legally" claims; now I know in some cases (like the tool one) it's different because the material in question is completely unavailable regardless of where you live, but it could just as easily turn into "my cousin works at their record label and gave me a listen" crap.
In the end, anyone who knows how to work a computer and has the internet can and will download something, and while boards.ie shouldn't help them it would be ignorant to assume it doesn't happen, I'm also finding it hard to see if there would be any legal avenue for boards.ie to be taken from by allowing the discussion of illegally copied material because they are not hosting or encouraging criminal behaviour they are just allowing the discussion after the fact... it would be a kin to banning any threads in AH that are like the "have you ever stolen anything from work" type.
If it's a case that each forum has its own specific rules on the issue for different purposes then perhaps the charters could be edited to reflect the varying degrees of moderation:
im not entirely sure i see your point here.
i have a problem with links to copyrighted material, or people asking how to get copyrighted material, or people giving info on how to get copyrighted material.
i have no problem with people discussing it, becuase quite frankly, its not my business on how people get things. i am not a nanny.
i do not think its the place of anyone on boards to second guess where or how people get hold of material.
it is however the place i think of moderators to ensure that boards.ie is not liable to the best of their ability, for copyrighted material to be seen as being distributed illegally through the medium of this web site.
i may be wrong, i may be right, but thats how i see.
this is actually pretty black and white for me.
discussion fine.
actual sharing, bad.0 -
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flogen wrote:it seemed to me that the thread in Rock/Metal was shut down because people were discussing material they had obtained illegally, but there was never a mention of where they got it, how they got it or requests on said information...
Actually, there were links that I removed from that thread.
In fairness though Flogen, I do see what you're getting at here, but you have to admit that there is a world of difference between what was going on in that thread, and what's going on in the Lost forum.
First of all, Lost is a TV show that's being broadcast in the US ahead of Ireland. We've also got quite a number of users who are from the US, so it's perfectly reasonable to assume that there's a number of people who are discussing the latest episodes of Lost are from the states, and saw that episode as it was broadcast on TV.
The Tool album is not available legally anywhere in the world yet, so there's absolutely no ambiguety there, it's a clear-cut case of downloading things illegally, and it's completely obvious.
Second of all, there is no TV equivelant of the RIAA. Websites risk being shut down, and people risk being seriously fined. Please read this. It's a whole different kettle of fish really, and boards is indeed liable for this sort of thing. Many users on the thread in question are just blurting out that they downloaded it, with absolutely no tact at all.
Thirdly, yes it's unavoidable that people will be downloading things illegally, reguardless of what boards does, but does that mean we should allow it to be advertised? Certainly not. I have the interests of boards at heart, and I'd certainly not like to see the admins slapped with a nice big court case over the content of this here site, and I also have the interests of the user base in mind aswell. You'll thank me when you don't get fined.
Conclusion. What goes on in other boards is none of my concern, and it won't affect how I moderate the boards that I mod.0 -
Karl Hungus wrote:Actually, there were links that I removed from that thread.
In fairness though Flogen, I do see what you're getting at here, but you have to admit that there is a world of difference between what was going on in that thread, and what's going on in the Lost forum.
First of all, Lost is a TV show that's being broadcast in the US ahead of Ireland. We've also got quite a number of users who are from the US, so it's perfectly reasonable to assume that there's a number of people who are discussing the latest episodes of Lost are from the states, and saw that episode as it was broadcast on TV.
The Tool album is not available legally anywhere in the world yet, so there's absolutely no ambiguety there, it's a clear-cut case of downloading things illegally, and it's completely obvious.
Second of all, there is no TV equivelant of the RIAA. Websites risk being shut down, and people risk being seriously fined. Please read this. It's a whole different kettle of fish really, and boards is indeed liable for this sort of thing. Many users on the thread in question are just blurting out that they downloaded it, with absolutely no tact at all.
Thirdly, yes it's unavoidable that people will be downloading things illegally, reguardless of what boards does, but does that mean we should allow it to be advertised? Certainly not. I have the interests of boards at heart, and I'd certainly not like to see the admins slapped with a nice big court case over the content of this here site, and I also have the interests of the user base in mind aswell. You'll thank me when you don't get fined.
Conclusion. What goes on in other boards is none of my concern, and it won't affect how I moderate the boards that I mod.
I know you have the interests of the site at heart, if I thought you were just going on a powertrip or something stupid like that I wouldn't have done the whole "I'll start a thread complaining in feedback" buzz; I probably would have just PM'd you voicing my opinion...
I know there's a big difference between the two examples, but at the same time it's difficult to enforce a rule that 9 times out of 10 can't be proven; yes the album is unavailable commercially but that doesn't mean it's only obtainable illegally, after all, someone uploaded the whole thing and I doubt that someone was a member of the band, their record label, management etc, it was most likely someone who got a pre-release copy legally (from a friend of a friend who works somewhere)... my point is that people saying "A friend of mine works in their label and let me hear it" is most likely a lie, but it's no easier to prove than the "my cousin taped it for me" crap we get in the TV forums.
As for links that were removed, that's fair enough, I didn't see them (except the limewire reference) and I agree that they should have been removed along with a warning to the offender; obviously one moment of lax moderating could cause hours of stress for the Admin if IRMA wander by the site.
In the thread you mentioned that you were surprised at some people for discussing the issue (or maybe you were talking about people making links, I'm not sure?) but in fairness to them/us, it generally is the case that discussions on illegal material are allowed once links/requests are not posted... that includes within the Rock/Metal forum.0 -
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You're making an unauthorised copy, not the uploader. You are making the copy without permission, a replica in violation of the law, like photocpoying a book. Unless you have purchased a copy or the copyright owner has given you permission to own a copy, you don't have the right to possess a copy. Simple as that.It is illegal to download copyrighted materials (including MP3 and other music and video files) from the Internet without permission of the person owning the copyright. Under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) instituted in 1998, the copyright owner may bring an action in court that may result in civil liability or even criminal prosecution.
Google down, eh?
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The DMCA is an america law.Doctor J wrote:You're making an unauthorised copy, not the uploader. You are making the copy without permission, a replica in violation of the law, like photocpoying a book. Unless you have purchased a copy or the copyright owner has given you permission to own a copy, you don't have the right to possess a copy. Simple as that.
Google down, eh?0 -
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