Analogue Switch Off...

rogue-entity · 03-04-2006 02:53PM

watty wrote:

...
3) Any Satellite operator selling subscriptions in Ireland *MUST* offer any Irish national broadcaster FTV encryption free and EPG free and charge no more for a card annually than the basic monthly pay TV package. (This would cost the Sat operator almost *NOTHING*), but the Irish Broadcasters to pay direct to whoever they like for transponder space (i.e. SES, Eutelsat direct or BT, RR Sat, Sky etc indirect), which is a fraction of cost of running a terrestrial network. This law would not just apply to Sky, but RTE et al don't have to use ABSat, Art, Albsat, Cyfra+ etc unless they really want. (IMO no bad thing if a few Irish channels on Hotbird and Astra 19E using FTV card, viaccess etc). This also would look good in EU competition as Sky would no longer have a technical monoploy on Irish TV sat delivery.

That would be a nice idea in principle, but I dont think the Irish government has the balls to stand up to any large company be it Sky or Eircom. They seem as content as the US to just let companies in there juristiction do what they want.

I would like a law passed that would force any company selling subscription services in Ireland to make there system openly compatable with third party systems, ie, force Sky to release a CAM for non-sky digiboxes and PVRs and allow third party companies to use the Sky EPG (assuming it cant be done anyway because I honestly dont know). This way, people who want to use a dreambox PVR instead of the crippled Sky+ box can do so to watch sky channels with a paying subscription and not need to pay that ridiculous charge for Sky+

But, it aint gonna happen sadly.

flogen · 06-04-2006 05:24PM

watty wrote:

The outlook is bleak for DTT unless the Government pays for it and it is substatially free, including all the main UK channels free. (ALL BBC, ALL ITV , C4 and Five). The number of BBC & ITV channels have DOUBLED from time Irish DTT was originally planned.

Just to go back to this point; I don't see the UK channels happening, not all of them anyway.

Depending on the situation with TV3 and the buyout, they have made it clear to me (during research I was doing for a piece on the current state of play on DTT) that they would not happily allow UTV into the Irish terrestrial market as they have the rights. Of course, RTE currently broadcast in Northern Ireland and the rights issues there are dealt with by a black-screen during programming that they do not hold the British rights to (probably most of the non-Irish programming). Of course, given the situation with UTV/TV3, their programming is so similar that would mean that UTV would have very little to show without the black-screen coming into effect.
BBC and I guess C4 would have more of its own programming and wouldn't suffer as many interruptions.

watty · 06-04-2006 05:53PM

Well if DTT has LESS main UK TV than Cable / FTA Satellite it is a non-starter.

flogen · 06-04-2006 06:50PM

watty wrote:

Well if DTT has LESS main UK TV than Cable / FTA Satellite it is a non-starter.

Well, I wouldn't write it off that quickly; at present Irish analogue has 4 channels, Channel 6 and Setanta are likely to be included on DTT, as would City Channel and the upcoming DCTV which are all extras.
I know for a fact that there will be extra Irish channels made for a DTT service; I'm not sure how many but I'd say we'd see, in total 10 - 13 Irish channels at launch (including the 8 above). Then we have the extra fluff, FM and DAB stations etc.

I mean, DTT doesn't need to be packed full of goodness, it just needs to replace the existing ATT structure. Competing with NTL isn't really the goal of it all... of course the extra 4 channels currently not in existance on terrestrial and any extras that come into existance will be used to entice people to fork out €60 for a set-top box

rogue-entity · 06-04-2006 11:16PM

I predict that the majority of people will get a DTT box, if they have a good chance of reception. DTT as someone said is simply intended to replace the existing analogue system. Here would be a good example lineup for DTT when launching:

1 RTE 1
2 RTE 2
3 TV3
4 TG4
5 Setanta Sports
6 Channel 6
7-9 Spare for future Irish stations (e.g. a second TG4)
10 BBC 1
11 BBC 2
12 BBC 3
13 BBC 4
14 ITV 1
15 ITV 2
16 ITV 3
17 ITV 4
18 Channel 4

flogen · 07-04-2006 12:17AM

rogue-entity wrote:

I predict that the majority of people will get a DTT box, if they have a good chance of reception. DTT as someone said is simply intended to replace the existing analogue system. Here would be a good example lineup for DTT when launching:

1 RTE 1
2 RTE 2
3 TV3
4 TG4
5 Setanta Sports
6 Channel 6
7-9 Spare for future Irish stations (e.g. a second TG4)
10 BBC 1
11 BBC 2
12 BBC 3
13 BBC 4
14 ITV 1
15 ITV 2
16 ITV 3
17 ITV 4
18 Channel 4

But as I said; the chances of ITV (well, certainly ITV1) coming into the mix are slim for two reasons; 1) a large portion of their own programming is already on TV3 and they have Irish broadcasting rights and any of their non-ITV programming (imports etc.) is likely to be owned by one of the existing Irish channels already. 2) ITV own nearly half of tv3 and showing the same programming on two channels would be splitting their own market for no reason.. If ITV buy Canwests 45% this will solve a slight problem, but it would then be easier for them to create ITV Ireland than drop TV3 and replace it with a direct transmission of ITV1 as they would need to opt-out during certain programming that RTE/TG4/C6/Setanta has the Irish rights too.. chances are in this case they'd treat ITV Ireland on a regional basis, so when something is aired on ITV1 that can't be shown in Ireland, they slap something else on for the 26 counties. If they sell their 45% and don't renew the deal with Tv3 when it expired (next year?) then they might enter the Irish market, but rights issues would still exist.

The BBC won't broadcast FTA to Ireland because it is the UK National Broadcaster and has an obligation to serve its licence fee payers first and then sell its services to non-LF payers (such as the BBC channel in the USA and the fact that BBC is only available in Ireland on a sub package).

Channel 4 would also encounter rights issues as the likes of TV3 and especially Channel 6 have the Irish rights to a lot of their import programming.

City Channel will have not next to national by the time DTT launches.. it is currently in Dublin, Galway and Waterford and is due to roll out in Cork and Limerick eventually; I imagine these regions will eventually spread to surrounding counties if they have not already. Other regional channels exist and DCTV is due to launch later this year.

Considering the size of the country 8 channels isn't bad, and it will be more than that once DTT launches...
I think with a well priced set-top box, a handful of Digital only channels and the right government aid for disadvantaged groups in the country a digital switchover is more than possible without British TV; its inclusion just complicates matters in my opinion, and will only serve to slow things down even more.
I'm sceptical that Digital will be anywhere near 100% by 2012, but that's currently an aim rather than a demand by the EU

watty · 07-04-2006 08:27AM

BBC & ITV ARE broadcasting FTA to Ireland.

The whole point of DTT is not just to duplicate the analog channels but also get rid of dreadfull MMDS and Deflectors. For that it has to have, and was always specified to have the Main UK channels.

Initially DTT will need a set top box and often a new aerial. Like Digital Satellite and Digital Cable, each TV needs ists own box or all TVs watch the same channel

Anyone can buy a FTA satellite system for about 150 Quid and have 45 decent TV channels (ALL BBC & ITV) plus 60+ rubbish ones and 30 decent radio channels out of 70+.

Coverage of DTT will be poor till analog is turned off and the power can be increased.

DTT, if it ever happens here at all, will definately have the main BBC/ITV channels. The question is will it have BBC3, BBC4, ITV3, ITV4 etc which are free on satellite.

Unless the DTT has the UK channels they won't be able to get the Deflectors turned off. The deal on licencing them was they could keep running untill DTT starts as it will make them redundant anyway.

The rights is a red herring. Over 65% of Irish housholds could get ITV & BBC BEFORE it was on Digital Satellite. Now with FTA Satellite the proportion may be 80% of households have BBC/ITV.

Cheap FTA satellite and the collapse of DTT in other countries as Pay TV means DTT has some serious financial problems.

People won't get DTT to watch a bunch of rubbish cable "filler channels".

In other countries cable exists for true Sky style pay Tv / multichannel. The new owners of Chorus / NTL Ireland (UPC) are seriously pushing multichannel Digial, phone and Broadband as the tradition al reason for Cable / MMDS in this country is evaporating and now down to C4. (Five is not such a big concern).

It is very possible that C4 will also be FTA from 2008. But even now a UK address and £21 gets a subscription free viewing card for C4, Sky3 and Five. No-one has a clue how many are in use, but it could be over 10,000.

The DTT will use 3 digit numbering.

If DTT has Rogue-Entity's line up FTA then DTT will sell.

It will be by MUX, each having up to 6 TV and several Radio channels:
Original Lineup was MPEG2, now MPEG4 proposed:
Mux 1 RTE (RTE News24, Dail, RTE kids, RTE1, RTE2)
Mux 2 Shared by TV3 and TG4
Mux 3 BBC & ITV (not enough space for BBC4 /ITV4 using MPEG2)
Mux 4 Pay TV
Mux 5 Pay TV

Originally only MUX 1 & 2 was to be free.

Using MPEG4 rather than MPEG2 means
1) Existing UK boxes won't work
2) Nearly twice the sapce for channels, or some HDD.

The advent of all the Free BBC/ITV and HDD completely changes the planning.

flogen · 07-04-2006 11:48AM

watty wrote:

BBC & ITV ARE broadcasting FTA to Ireland.

But not on ATT; those channels are only available through sub packages and other methods which I'm not sure are entirely legal; perhaps you can clear that up?

The rights is a red herring. Over 65% of Irish housholds could get ITV & BBC BEFORE it was on Digital Satellite. Now with FTA Satellite the proportion may be 80% of households have BBC/ITV.

Tell that to the likes of tv3; that 20% or so of people who only get ATT are vital to TV3; while RTE's imports usually broadcast earlier than their UK counterparts to ensure maximum competitiveness, tv3 don't have that luxury with soaps, reality TV shows etc.
I can guarentee that any inclusion of UTV or ITV will cause huge problems for TV3 as it stands, they just won't play ball... of course that will change depending on who owns them when DTT comes around.

People won't get DTT to watch a bunch of rubbish cable "filler channels".

But there'll be a few Irish channels, I couldn't say if they'd be filler or not, but they won't be the rubbish cable channels you refer to.

If DTT has Rogue-Entity's line up FTA then DTT will sell.

It will be by MUX, each having up to 6 TV and several Radio channels:
Original Lineup was MPEG2, now MPEG4 proposed:
Mux 1 RTE (RTE News24, Dail, RTE kids, RTE1, RTE2)
Mux 2 Shared by TV3 and TG4
Mux 3 BBC & ITV (not enough space for BBC4 /ITV4 using MPEG2)
Mux 4 Pay TV
Mux 5 Pay TV

I don't think an RTE News channel will happen, it's too expensive and would be difficult to justify (I imagine). The kids and dail channel are pretty likely IMO.

I think that the advent or rights issues aren't a red herring, especially not to TV3 who thrive on the success of shows that are available elsewhere at the exact same time... just not on ATT. If UTV/ITV were put on the exact same platform as TV3 they would lose that. I've spoken to someone from TV3 and he made it quite clear that any inclusion of UTV would be a major sticking point.

watty · 07-04-2006 03:30PM

BBC & ITV. ALL GAZILLION CHANNELS is perfectly free from Iceland to Coast of France, further on bigger dish.

perfectly legal.

No subscription, cards or hacks.

I was setting up a sat system the other day and 100% perfect pictures with the dish sitting on the ground before I mounted it on the wall.

RTE are committed to a RTE news 24... cheaper than a Kids Channel!

At present the only two serious customers to BUY TV3 are UTV and ITV. No idea what that will do.

It isn't up to TV3. Also I don't think some of them understand reality. RTE has had competition in 50% to 70% of its coverage since BEFORE they even started. They too ran around in circles when they heard BBC was going FTA on Satellite. The world did not come to an end. Same with TV3 and ITV / UTV. They have been FTA ages now and it really doesn't matter.

Yes some ITV channels are now NOT on the Sky Ireland EPG (UTV never was). This is more to do with fact that BBC pays to be on EPG in UK and Sky pays BBC to be on EPG in Ireland. Anyone can restart their Sky box with NO card and get all the ITV on the EPG. Anyone with a Irish card can add them via Other Channels.

"rights holders" and "rights purchasers" may not like this, but EU wide TV with out frontiers is allowed. In fact the problem is mostly Sports and Hollywood essentially trying to rip off Europeans.

patrickmooney · 07-04-2006 04:55PM

flogen wrote:

Other regional channels exist and DCTV is due to launch later this year.

What is DCTV?

flogen · 07-04-2006 07:30PM

patrickmooney wrote:

What is DCTV?

Dublin City Television; basically an Irish take on the American Public Access Television, well... that's how I see it anyway.
www.dctv.ie for more; I heard about it through Near FM, I assume from that perspective it will work like existing community based radio stations, but with all the advantages of television instead.

watty wrote:

RTE are committed to a RTE news 24... cheaper than a Kids Channel!

Cheers for a clarification on the legality of getting BBC etc.; I would still be extremely surprised if TV3, taking their current ownership status, allowed ITV or UTV into the basic Irish setup, given that once ATT is turned off, DTT will be. Obviously any Irish viewer intent on getting BBC/ITV can do so, and as you have pointed out can do so on an non-sub basis, but there's a difference to being able to get a channel and being handed it at the most basic levels of television viewing in the country.

I'm not sure who you've spoken to about RTE's committment to a 24 hour news channel either, from what I've been told the landscape has changed that much since 1999 that such a service isn't as likely as it once was, that's not to say that it won't happen, and if it does I'll be extremely interested to see it. There are numerous concerns I would have about an Irish 24 hour news service.
Given that the den already broadcasts on a faux extra-channel basis on NTL shows that a kids channel isn't that big a leap at all. Childrens channels only broadcast for a portion of the day and as far as RTE goes a big portion of its daytime schedule on RTE 2 is already devoted to such programming, moving it to a dedicated channel wouldn't be extremely expensive with that in mind.

It isn't up to TV3. Also I don't think some of them understand reality. RTE has had competition in 50% to 70% of its coverage since BEFORE they even started. They too ran around in circles when they heard BBC was going FTA on Satellite. The world did not come to an end. Same with TV3 and ITV / UTV. They have been FTA ages now and it really doesn't matter.

They can still create a lot of noise and slow the process down; even if the EU laws say there's nothing to stop broadcasting from happening, TV3 do still have the Irish rights to certain programming and, even if they were guarenteed survival with the imposition of UTV on a basic level, are certain to lose some audience share, which is vital for a commercial station, especially one just in the black like TV3.
I would be suspect that rights issues are as simple as you say they are, why would RTE black out on certain programming when they didn't need to in NI? Is it just a gesture of goodwill?

Analogue Switch Off...

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