Analogue Switch Off...

marclt · 21-03-2006 09:37PM #1

From Digitalspy:

A new report has predicted that Finland will become the first country to fully switch off its analogue signals.

Switch offs by nation:

Finland 2007
Sweden, Italy and Norway 2008
US Denmark and Wales 2009
France, Germany, Belgium and Spain 2010
Japan 2011
Rest of UK, Australia and Austria 2012.

And where will Ireland be in all this???

Ulsterman 1690 · 21-03-2006 09:45PM

Well before RTE have an Analouge switch off it MIGHT be an idea to have a digital switch ON :rolleyes:

Although in the case of TV3 I wouldnt even bother........:D

byte · 21-03-2006 10:23PM

Probably 2015. I'm trying to be optomistic

flogen · 23-03-2006 07:16PM

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

Well before RTE have an Analouge switch off it MIGHT be an idea to have a digital switch ON :rolleyes:

Although in the case of TV3 I wouldnt even bother........:D

The digital/analogue switch isn't up to RTE or TV3, it's the government (Dept of Communications) at this point; they have to give a contract out to a company to oversee the switch over.

cyrus the virus · 23-03-2006 07:20PM

I heard that rté are testing their digital sometime this year. 6 weeks of tests.

Phen · 23-03-2006 08:30PM

Someone here posted a link to a website that kept track of all digital developments in several countries including Ireland. Can anyone remember what the address is?

Round Cable · 23-03-2006 08:43PM

I think this is the one you want http://www.dvb.org/about_dvb/dvb_worldwide/

Phen · 24-03-2006 12:11AM

Yes thats the one...thanks! The Ireland part hasn't been updated in a good while but its interesting to note that a quote from RTÉ on that site says: (with reference to DTT testing) The aim of the project is for technical testing and the demonstration of new channels and services. I wonder what new channels RTÉ have in the pipeline? I'd say a news channel must be top of the list!

watty · 24-03-2006 09:13AM

cyrus the virus wrote:

I heard that rté are testing their digital sometime this year. 6 weeks of tests.

no.

There will shortly be TWO YEAR "test" from Three Rock and two other sites of DTT/DVB-t.

Even people in RTE are not sure what is being tested. Perhaps ingress to cable TV systems. The technology is mature and RTE did all the tests it needed years and years ago. Twice.

The current scheduled test may be to confince everyone that we are "progressing" Digital TV.

It suggests that unless something dramatic changes regarding Goverment / EU /RTE (or other) FINANCE, DTT Nationally won't be rolled out for 4 or five years.

Till there is a plan to even start (there isn't) there can't be a switch off plan. N.I. and I think Jersey will be the last two UK areas to turn off Analogue TV.

flogen · 24-03-2006 03:00PM

The tests are government led, aren't they?
From what I know RTE are sitting on their hands waiting for the government to "invite" them to start a new service.

watty · 24-03-2006 03:06PM

Yes. the "so called tests" are Ministry, not RTE. But RTE involved.

RTE don't have the money and while originally was supposed to set up the DTT network that idea was scrapped and DTT network put out for Tender. No-one suitable was ever yet accepted.

see also
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4839542.stm

flogen · 24-03-2006 05:43PM

So in other words any future Irish DTT is unlikely to be RTE "freeview" like BBC "freeview" in the UK as RTE cannot afford it?

watty · 24-03-2006 07:38PM

The basic channels plus a few new Irish ones (Dail, RTE News 24, an extra TnaG etc) were supposed to be free, then a basic sub for UK channels and then after that pay TV channels. But the whole idea fell apart with failure of UK and Spain DTT as pay systems. DTT doesn't really have enough channels as a viable pay Multichannel. Most places are opting for mostly free with maybe a small bunch pay TV (like Top Up TV).

No-one really seems to know now what is going to happen. Sky is now well established, yet had not launched offically as Irish service when DTT was originally supposed to start. Digital Cable was tiny then too. Sky and Digital Cable/MMDS will be very well consolidated by time any Irish DTT could launch. It can't offer much more than 30 channels (so can't compete on Quantity with Sky) If it had 15 Channels then maybe 4 or 5 HD are possible. It can't compete with Sky or Cable on HD or quantity and cable offers phone & BB too.

Adsl and Wireless operators have all kinds of schemes to offer Digital TV etc. BBC & ITV both now FTA on Satellite, originally when DTT was supposed to launch ITV wasn't even on Sky!

The outlook is bleak for DTT unless the Government pays for it and it is substatially free, including all the main UK channels free. (ALL BBC, ALL ITV , C4 and Five). The number of BBC & ITV channels have DOUBLED from time Irish DTT was originally planned.

L1011 · 25-03-2006 01:16AM

watty wrote:

Till there is a plan to even start (there isn't) there can't be a switch off plan. N.I. and I think Jersey will be the last two UK areas to turn off Analogue TV.

N.I.s date is "H2 2012", for a number of reasons... hrm, UTV and loosing analogue viewers one of them perchance

They will be utterly the last to move over totally in the UK.

The Channel Islands aren't "in the UK", in theory. As such, they haven't got an analogue switch-off date, or a digital switch-on one either. Or Channel 5...

Round Cable · 25-03-2006 11:36AM

I have a funny feeling that RTÉ don't care about DTT , lack of money was cited as the reasoning for no RTÉ led DTT, surely they could dip into their licence fee, aren't the transmitters already in place?, surely it would cost less to upgrade them to digital than to build one from scratch. RTÉ have competition only from TV3 and TG4 in ATT homes which still accounts for 25% of the viewing population. Are they really going to be happy with those houses receiving 15+ channels diluting the value of their advertisments.

Mossy Monk · 25-03-2006 12:53PM

Round Cable wrote:

I have a funny feeling that RTÉ don't care about DTT

they better start caring about it if thats the case. analogue has to be shut down by 2012? EU ruling or something

watty · 25-03-2006 02:00PM

Round Cable wrote:

I have a funny feeling that RTÉ don't care about DTT , lack of money was cited as the reasoning for no RTÉ led DTT, surely they could dip into their licence fee, aren't the transmitters already in place?, surely it would cost less to upgrade them to digital than to build one from scratch. RTÉ have competition only from TV3 and TG4 in ATT homes which still accounts for 25% of the viewing population. Are they really going to be happy with those houses receiving 15+ channels diluting the value of their advertisments.

RTE would have 3 or 4 more channels and TG4 maybe two more under original plans.

There would be about 30 channels till analogue switch off then originally 60 to 80. However now perhaps MPEG4 will be used and there could be 40 channels or 30 SD and 5 HD, with maybe 40 SD and 15HD after analog switch off.

Satellite has go so much cheaper than even running DTT, never mind setting it up, maybe we should forget about DTT..
1) pass law that any building with more than 20 people must install a communinal Sat system
2) Any place without a cominual system must allow dish
3) Any Satellite operator selling subscriptions in Ireland *MUST* offer any Irish national broadcaster FTV encryption free and EPG free and charge no more for a card annually than the basic monthly pay TV package. (This would cost the Sat operator almost *NOTHING*), but the Irish Broadcasters to pay direct to whoever they like for transponder space (i.e. SES, Eutelsat direct or BT, RR Sat, Sky etc indirect), which is a fraction of cost of running a terrestrial network. This law would not just apply to Sky, but RTE et al don't have to use ABSat, Art, Albsat, Cyfra+ etc unless they really want. (IMO no bad thing if a few Irish channels on Hotbird and Astra 19E using FTV card, viaccess etc). This also would look good in EU competition as Sky would no longer have a technical monoploy on Irish TV sat delivery.

RTE did want to do it but:
1) No transmitters are in place apart from the 3 multiplexes getting installed by the supplier (not RTE) at the moment.

2) Really, really have no money to do this. It will cost LOTS.

3) The Goverment not only decided that someone else should setup and run the new Digital Transmitter network (which does not exist and also needs the digital network feeds which don't exist), but that RTE's exsiting analog transmitter network should be sold off as was done to BBC (A BAD MOVE, IMO in UK) to Crown Castle / NTL.

All new transmitters are required. Also many new mast sites. Many existing sites can be used (Three Rock, Carn Hill, Claremont Cairn, Spur Hill), but many new sites are need as some early 60's VHF sites have never been very good locations for UHF (Kippure, Mt Lienster, Maghera, Truskmore, Mullaganish).

Also many RTE sites are "transposers" (AKA Repeaters) picking up Off Air Analog TV and rebroadcasting it a bit like a "Deflector". While BBC is researching how to do this, currently it just isn't possible for DTT. Each transmitter needs fed by Satellite, Fibre or Microwave direct from Montrose/Donnybrook. This is a huge investment in high speed data links (100 to 300 Mbps per transmitter site). Current digital links to analog transmitter sites don't have the spare capacity, and of course many are not fed this way at all.

Areas needing a few new sites:
Parts of Carlow / Wexford / Wicklow / Waterford.

Areas needing a lot of new sites:
Kerry, West cork, parts of South Tipperary/East Cork (galties / ballyhoura / Knockmedown mountains), Mayo and Donegal.

I'd stick a small TX at each end (west & East) of the Ridge of Capard / Sleive Bloom Mts that lie just North East of Portloise.

The midlands as such, East coast from Dundalk to Blackrock etc are well served by Three Rock, Clermont Cairn and Carn Hill.

Donegal's HolyHill TX serves Derry City well

Maghera & Mullaganish between them serve Cork/Kerry/Clare/Limerick quite poorly. A bunch of repeaters is needed, hence many in that area added since start of UHF era. But many are very low power. The new Tx at those sites for DTT should in some cases be 10 to 100 times the power (Woodcock Hill for Limerick is only 100W on the analog).

Ulsterman 1690 · 25-03-2006 06:41PM

RTE would have 3 or 4 more channels and TG4 maybe two more under original plans.

Problem with extra channels is one needs something called "programme content" to fill them. And worthwhile programme content costs money The last thing RTE needs is additional channels to spread its programming budget across.

With the possible exception of an Irish rolling news service it is difficult to envisage what worthwhile programming could be carried on the new channels. An Irish parliament channel would have the difficulty of finding material to broadcast during Leinster house's ludicrously long holidays (although maybe the downtime could be filled with coverage of the European parliament which at the moment is sadly lacking in both the Irish and UK media) another possiblity would be a "gold" channel showing archive material (but NOT a another "RTE +1" or "another chance to see last tuesdays repeat of the Fair city omnibus" channel)

As for TG4 maybe they could split into TG4 and TE4

watty · 25-03-2006 07:32PM

There was indeed supposed to be A children, an educational, a news and Leinster house ch.

I vote we have just four UK channels, one RTE channel and one TnaG channel and turn the rest off. There really isn't enough to fill the 800 channels we have.

Well maybe a couple of archive TV, a couple of news and Nat Geo plus a couple of Discovery type channels (There is too many of them too, full of repeats).

Round Cable · 25-03-2006 08:52PM

3 excellant points watty, however the problem with FTV satellite; everyone would be sending cards to relatives in the UK, which would anger some British channels.

About aditional RTÉ channels, they don't have enough decent content to fill 2 at the minute. A news and Kids channel might work though.

Mossy Monk · 25-03-2006 09:48PM

Round Cable wrote:

however the problem with FTV satellite; everyone would be sending cards to relatives in the UK, which would anger some British channels

would they have a leg to stand on in this instance?

watty · 25-03-2006 10:15PM

Round Cable wrote:

3 however the problem with FTV satellite; everyone would be sending cards to relatives in the UK, which would anger some British channels.

It wouldn't matter. Geographic Control by card is an illusion. Google on Irish Sky Sub etc.

Anyone in UK on Sky pay Tv can get the irish channels now for a premium.

BBC with FTA on 2D is recievable by less people in some areas than before moving to 2D with FTV card.

Irish is a small dwindling population now in UK. Deaths exceed births. Many ethnic minorities are now bigger. It wouldn't be enough cards to worry anyone.

Ulsterman 1690 · 25-03-2006 10:40PM

The Channel Islands aren't "in the UK", in theory. As such, they haven't got an analogue switch-off date, or a digital switch-on one either. Or Channel 5...

For televisual purposes the Channel Islands and Isle Of Man are to all intents and purposes in the UK the reason they have no freeview, and Channel 5 (not to mention their analouge service being historically lousy) is down to their Geographic proximity to France and usable UHF frequencies being very scarce as a result.

I daresay the Channel Islads will get DTT (although mayybe not all six multiplexes) once both the UK and France complete their analouge switchoff

they better start caring about it if thats the case. analogue has to be shut down by 2012? EU ruling or something

While the EU is encouraging member states to phase out analouge AFaIK they are not demanding it (yet anyway) Mind you broadcasting is one area which previous attempts at EU intervention have been pretty disastorus (remember D2-MAC, PALplus and SCART)

L1011 · 26-03-2006 05:36AM

Round Cable wrote:

I have a funny feeling that RTÉ don't care about DTT ,

They do.

Unfortunately, I can't give any more details, but a few of the people on IRC know what I'm talking about.

RTÉ care about DTT, and very, very much so, in fact.

L1011 · 26-03-2006 05:40AM

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

For televisual purposes the Channel Islands and Isle Of Man are to all intents and purposes in the UK the reason they have no freeview, and Channel 5 (not to mention their analouge service being historically lousy) is down to their Geographic proximity to France and usable UHF frequencies being very scarce as a result.

The Isle of Man has geographic proxmitiy to France?

I have no idea what rules the IOM has UK TV under, I would guess their own government allowed the transmitters quite willingly but I still have no clue how the BBC can transmit there. The Channel Islands have an Order-in-Council allowing them to have UK TV and an ITV region.

L1011 · 26-03-2006 05:42AM

watty wrote:

Anyone in UK on Sky pay Tv can get the irish channels now for a premium.

Or for the same price by:

1. Faking a Northern Irish adress
2. Cancelling the Sky Magazine
3. Hoping to hell they don't send out new cards

Ulsterman 1690 · 26-03-2006 06:41AM

The Isle of Man has geographic proxmitiy to France?

Ah Damnit you know what I mean

I have no idea what rules the IOM has UK TV under, I would guess their own government allowed the transmitters quite willingly but I still have no clue how the BBC can transmit there.

Probably under one of those orderin-council thingys too. The Isle of Man in theory has a lot of autonomy but in practice Westminister can override them. They could probably push for their own ITV region but Id imagine the interest isint there. They do (unlike the channel Islands) have the power to decides who gets radio licences (i.e. Manx Radio, Musicmann 279 etc) but have to get frequency clearence from London (They had a hell of a job getting decent frequencies for Manx radio because it was before the UK mainland had commercial radio and the then government were pretty unsympathetic to the concept)

The Channel Islands have an Order-in-Council allowing them to have UK TV and an ITV region.

IIRC they originally were to have a relay of Southern England ITV but asked for and got their own region (although the mainland ITA/IBA/ITC/Ofcom still decides who gets the franchise)

Incidently Ive never understood why Gibralter, The Falklands etc dont have proper UK TV.

watty · 26-03-2006 10:15AM

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

Incidently Ive never understood why Gibralter, The Falklands etc dont have proper UK TV.

Neither do the Gibraterians,

They vote in EU as part of SW England.

They are as British as IOM and Channel Islands, if not more so.

Sky won't sell them subs. etc, so vast grey import of FTV and Sub cards. They do get 2D (big dish though) even though some places a bit more north in Spain can't (in a good part of Fresnel zone of the beam).

France supply TV to their overseas Territories. See the far off places on an EU bank note.

marksi · 26-03-2006 11:06AM

MYOB wrote:

N.I.s date is "H2 2012", for a number of reasons... hrm, UTV and loosing analogue viewers one of them perchance They will be utterly the last to move over totally in the UK.

UTV had no say in the timetable for analogue switch off. The areas which have close international neighbours are later in the switch off process because the agreements for increased power/frequency changes are obviously harder to clear.

The fact that they may lose viewers in the RoI doesn't matter a jot in this situation.

watty · 26-03-2006 11:22AM

Once the extra "relays" are enabled and the power increased actually more people here will be be able to get all the Freeview channels.

rogue-entity · 27-03-2006 03:13PM

Well I will be looking forward to BBC/ITV's Freesat. A decent sat dish and a decent F/S Receiver. Then I will just get a decent antenna to pickup the Irish channels. And perhaps another receiver and dish for FTA on other sats. To hell with Irish DTT. And if they even think of charging for the UK channels, forget it, I wont waste my money. Although I would be curious to know what PAY channels will be on an Irish DTT system.

Analogue Switch Off...

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