Train Hell

Transport21 Fan · 21-02-2006 09:37PM

RedAlert, we also "own" (as you say) the RPA as well.

However, I am very much in favour of public ownership of the actual public transport infrastructure itself, it is the services which cannot be maintained by the state.

As for the CIE product...Go and ask everybody who uses the Luas would they prefer that CONNEX are removed from runing the Luas and instead it was handed over to the CIE company to operate instead? Just tell them that the same people who run Irish Rail and Dublin Bus will do a better job than CONNEX. Then, after they finish laughing at your suggestion, then follow it up by how CIE emlpoyees walking off the job in the middle of the day to support the Irish Ferries Circus is proof that Irish people own CIE and it is run with our interest in mind.

The reality is that most Luas customers are public transport refugees who have escaped decades of avoiding CIE incompetence at all costs. If there was no Luas, they would be driving into the city centre. Dublin Bus would be the last option after walking to work.

Metrobest · 22-02-2006 12:17PM

I'm glad you liked the line 51, Thomas! You're right, luas is superior to any of Amsterdam's 20 or so tram lines, as most of its running is done off street and without the conductors slowing things up.

I think that Irish people, used to little but CIE, are way too tolerant of its shoddy service. It's why they think luas is brilliant, even though a metro would be twice as good. Perhaps we get the train service we deserve? Amazingly, only 41% of NS passengers are very satisfied with the company's punctuality even though 93% of trains arrive within 5 minutes. In Holland, when a train is more than 1 minute late, people start to pace up and down the platform and glare at their watches in disgust, especially when there's no "vertraging" posted on the PIS boards. In Ireland, if the train arrives just 1 minute late it's April Fools Day!

However, we've shown with luas that we can "do" public transport on a world-class scale. What's going to be really interesting is how the Dublin metro will compare with other new metro systems like in Amsterdam and Bilbao.

RedAlert, by virtue of being taxpayers we all subsidise, more so than "own" Irish Rail. It's not a case of sending CIE under. It's about introducing the changes neccessary to give Ireland a world class train service. These changes include, but are not limited to, -
* a supervisory board comprised of train users, important people in national life and representatives of the engineering community. It would be given the power to sack Irish Rail management if they do not meet targets laid down by DoT
* allowing private companies operate trains on intercity routes (this is coming down the line in the next few years thanks to an EU directive; Irish Rail won't have a choice in the matter)
* a particular focus on punctuality
* simpler ticket structures, where singles cost 50% of a return

markpb · 22-02-2006 01:54PM

Red Alert wrote:

i don't see why you want a company we all own by the virtue of being taxpayers to be sent under.

If you want to look at it that way, why should we continue to invest in a company that has neither its shareholders nor its passengers at heart. RPA and Connex might not be the best network+train operators around, but (so far) they're a world better than CIE/IR.

Also, in theory, if Connex stop providing an acceptable service, RPA have the power to tender their contract to someone else. Unfortunately there's no such option with IR, no matter how poor a service they (sometimes) provide.

Transport21 Fan · 22-02-2006 03:03PM

Metrobest, Line 51 simply blew my mind and opened up a whole new world of rail transport possibility in Ireland, not just in Dublin, but in other cities.

I had high hopes after reading about it before I went over, but it surpassed all my expectations. It is a practical and clever way to tie in different rail modes and had "build me in Dublin, (and later Cork, Limerick)" witten all over it. From the cross-platform change with the NS mainline at Amstel, to sharing of the tram lines in the suburbs and the secondary two level platforms - it is was just practical, genius really. Even the central meridian road running with level crossings on busy cross roads in no way affected the performance. There were Merrion Gates type crossing everywhere and the SnellTRAM just flew through them. If was the road traffic which was inconvienced/compromised and not the other way around.

The flexibility of the SnellTRAM really struck me more than anything else (it's really not much faster than the Green Line, if at all). Some leaks from the RPA have indicated that this is might just be the specs for the Dublin metro and if not, this can still happen in the future thanks to standard gauge of both systems. This would allow a metro service into Tallaght from the Airport without having to upgrade Belgard-Tallaght line from Luas - both systems share the tracks. What more would you want really.

The world beyond CIE is unfolding before us and I am savouring every second of it.

BTW: The coffee on NS is actually drinkable and I did not have to rest my coffee on the floor of a 2900 "inter-city" train because there were no tables..."getting there" yeah right. No more dicking around with trying to reform CIE, time to get busy and serious about rail transport in Ireland.

Metrobest · 23-02-2006 10:02AM

I think the Dublin metro North will be more like the new North/South line in Amsterdam: fully segregated, underground in the city centre and elevated in the suburbs and will terminate at Zuid WTC where the line 51 and tram 5 split. (The construction work going on outside Centraal Station and at Rokin in Amsterdam centre gives an idea of what "we" will have to put up with in Dublin - a slight inconvenience, but city life is not disrupted as heavily as might be expected by ill-informed hacks).

If Metro West is built, it will look something like Amsterdam's metro Line 50 from Biljmer to Isolaterweg - it runs on elevated track along its entire length and orbits the city, taking in residential areas and employment hubs.

The green line from Charlemont to Sandyford could be upgraded to the specs of line 51 be lengthening platforms and putting in the split levels. From Charlemont to metro the track would be shared tram/metro, just like the section from Amsterdam WTC - Oranjebaan. The metro would terminate at Sandyford but the tram could run on to Cherrywood and Bray where demand does not warrant metro. Another possibility would be a tunnel portal somewhere before Beechwood where the "Green" metro could go underground and serve Rathgar, Rathmines, Harolds Cross and link up with metro North. Pie-in-the-sky though this may seem, I believe that when the metro is operational and people can see how fantastic it is, there will be an unstoppable demand for metros everywhere in the city.

maxheadroom · 23-02-2006 12:24PM

Metrobest wrote:

The green line from Charlemont to Sandyford could be upgraded to the specs of line 51 be lengthening platforms and putting in the split levels. From Charlemont to metro the track would be shared tram/metro, just like the section from Amsterdam WTC - Oranjebaan. The metro would terminate at Sandyford but the tram could run on to Cherrywood and Bray where demand does not warrant metro. Another possibility would be a tunnel portal somewhere before Beechwood where the "Green" metro could go underground and serve Rathgar, Rathmines, Harolds Cross and link up with metro North. Pie-in-the-sky though this may seem, I believe that when the metro is operational and people can see how fantastic it is, there will be an unstoppable demand for metros everywhere in the city.

Just a quick question about the SnellTram concept - would sharing track from stephen's green to sandyford between faster/longer metro cars and slower trams not have a negative impact on frequency in much the same way that sharing track between DART services and intercity services does?

shoegirl · 24-02-2006 10:39AM

MorningStar wrote:

I think it really comes down to are you willing to pay more for your ticket to get what you want. You could complain that they don't use their money right but one way or the other it will still mean more money needs to be spent. THe money has to come from somewhere

More? Irish rail fares are already more expensive pro-rata.

EG.
Dublin - Cork - monthly return €65
distance 258km - cost per km 25c
Wolfenbüttel to Hannover €15
79km - cost per km 19c

And the German train will probably be on time, won't be filthy and full of scangers, and is the price for a high speed train - the slow local train is about 65% of the price. We are paying more in Ireland for less of a service.

Besides why do they hire people who cannot talk to make announcements? I use the pretty awful Cobh-Cork service and most of the time I cannot make head nor tail of what the annoucer actually says. (And I can understand a Midleton accent!)

MarkoP11 · 24-02-2006 11:16AM

Its 165.4 miles Dublin Cork, thats 266.13 km, 532.26 km round trip 65 euro for a monthly return thats 12.2 cent per km not 25 cent

Of course if you bought Cobh to Dublin City centre, (which exists) the cost per km would drop again and mean only one ticket to make what currently requires 4 and it covers the Luas or Bus to the city centre in Dublin. Most people never even bother to even think about that

There are a few comparisions around an IE fall into the mid field, not the cheapest but by far not the most expensive, the UK are 2 to 3 times more expensive.

You can squeeze certain things out of Irish Rail but mention the word fares and they will refuse to talk. The root of the fares problem is the DoT, if you want lower fares the shortfall in revenue has to come from somewhere. That said on off peak services from next year on Dublin Cork if you book in advance you should see a lower fare

If you apply a little research there are various ways to get a reduced fare http://www.platform11.org/passenger_info/ticketing.php#credit_union

I know certain lines in Dublin would kill for the Cork Cobh service, it even runs on Sundays

Metrobest · 24-02-2006 12:06PM

maxheadroom wrote:

Just a quick question about the SnellTram concept - would sharing track from stephen's green to sandyford between faster/longer metro cars and slower trams not have a negative impact on frequency in much the same way that sharing track between DART services and intercity services does?

It doesn't seem to in Amsterdam because it's a relatively short section of track, and the metro and tram each stop at every station. The frequency is roughly one tram/metro every 3-4 minutes. The tram and metro travel at the same speed along the shared section.

For example, Oranjebaan on tram line 5/sneltram line 51 has 17 services in rush hour to Centraal station (you can see every other service is a metro/sneltram);
8.03 regular tram
8.06 SNELTRAM ( = express tram/metro)
8.09 regular tram
8.14 SNELTRAM
8.15 regular tram
8.21 SNELTRAM
8.21 regular tram
8.27 regular tram
8.29 SNELTRAM
8.33 regular tram
8.36 SNELTRAM
8.39 regular tram
8.44 SNELTRAM
8.45 regular tram
8.51 regular tram
8.52 SNELTRAM
8.57 regular tram

Six minutes is longest you could have to wait for a train. If there were intercity trains on that line, huge holes would appear in the timetable to accomodate the intercities, and we'd end up with the DART-style scenario. Nobody wants that.

On another issue - the at-grade crossings being rumoured for Metro North, I am not happy to hear that. But let's wait and see: I think it will only be at-grade where there are no road intersections, if at all. Some politicians in Ballymun have been making noises about the elevation of the metro through claiming it would "damage" the aesthetics of the area. Scenic Ballymun? I do hope the RPA doesn't appease these whims; if there's one thing the RPA is guilty of, it's of paying too much attention to the opinions of crackpot refusinks.

Transport21 Fan · 24-02-2006 03:30PM

Excellent posts there Metrobest. The timetable you posted as well puts a bit of meat on the services we can expect. I agree that once the Metro is up and running and people see how these things actually work in a real life they will embrace it as much as they have the Luas.

I can recall people claiming the Luas would fail because it had on-street running and would kill predestrians and taxi drivers - never happened. They said Irish people would not use it as it only replicates the bus - they were wrong by a MILE.

Not that anything one says anymore will change anything. The deals are signed and i's are dotted. I think after the embrassement the Government suffered by spilting the two Luas lines for the last bunch of refusniks, that now they are just going to give the RPA a green light to get the job done the way they want to and ignore any more refusniks.

And you're right about Ballymun and the running on piers. I had to laugh at that Rosin Shorthall objecting to it. What can you say really. Welcome to the land of the Oirish Little People.

shoegirl · 14-03-2006 09:22PM

MarkoP11 wrote:

Its 165.4 miles Dublin Cork, thats 266.13 km, 532.26 km round trip 65 euro for a monthly return thats 12.2 cent per km not 25 cent

Of course if you bought Cobh to Dublin City centre, (which exists) the cost per km would drop again and mean only one ticket to make what currently requires 4 and it covers the Luas or Bus to the city centre in Dublin. Most people never even bother to even think about that

...

You can squeeze certain things out of Irish Rail but mention the word fares and they will refuse to talk. The root of the fares problem is the DoT, if you want lower fares the shortfall in revenue has to come from somewhere. That said on off peak services from next year on Dublin Cork if you book in advance you should see a lower fare[/url]

I know certain lines in Dublin would kill for the Cork Cobh service, it even runs on Sundays

Agree the DB price was for a single fare, however I say it was the ICE fare rather than the normal local train (which is about 65%) of the price and so cheaper than the Cork fare, wheareas Dublin to Cork you pay the same regardless of whether you stop only at 2 stations or every single one along the way.

Secondly you mention the Luas ticket to the city centre - is this new? It wasn't last time I got the train. At least the situation has changed - back a couple of years ago the last bus to town left Heuston a full 10 minutes before the last train was even due.

The ticket machines are a great improvement and have done a lot to avoid the terrible queues which often result in you missing your train. I almost always laugh when I see the sign outside the station telling people that the gates close 1 minute before the train leaves. A few times before the ticket machines went in I ended up missing a train because of enormous queues despite arriving 10 minutes early. Extremely poor customer service. Habing said that there are a few brilliant staff members who I cannot fault.

I'm not sure about Dublin envying the Cobh service. Cancellations with no replacement bus seem to have become normal. Happened to one of my colleagues in the last week and has happened to me personally three times in 3 months despite the fact that I really only use the train about 3 times a week on average. However its extremely cheap and there is plenty of parking at the stations, partially because the service really in most cases only about 50% full. In my mind and in my experience it is simply too unreliable to use as a sole means of transport.

As for the metro I am glad to see new lines being built. I have extensively used the train in the UK, France, Belgium and Germany and I think Dublin seems to be the only place where in the capital city (slow) local trains share the same line as the (faster) intercity services. It slows down the higher speed services and interrupts the local service. There is mothing nicer that taking the metropolitan line north of London and watching the Bakerloo trains as you speed by on the faster track!

MarkoP11 · 14-03-2006 10:20PM

shoegirl wrote:

Secondly you mention the Luas ticket to the city centre - is this new?

Its been available since the first day the red line opened, before that it was just valid on the bus

Simply ask for a ticket to Dublin city centre, it will be valid on Luas 90.91 and 92 bus

You can even get Cork to Larne in Northern Ireland on one ticket

I'm not sure about Dublin envying the Cobh service. Cancellations with no replacement bus seem to have become normal. Happened to one of my colleagues in the last week and has happened to me personally three times in 3 months despite the fact that I really only use the train about 3 times a week on average. However its extremely cheap and there is plenty of parking at the stations, partially because the service really in most cases only about 50% full. In my mind and in my experience it is simply too unreliable to use as a sole means of transport.

Kildare Dublin has no Sunday service despite having a heavier usage than Cork Cobh

Iób · 14-03-2006 11:30PM

MarkoP11 wrote:

Its been available since the first day the red line opened, before that it was just valid on the bus

Simply ask for a ticket to Dublin city centre, it will be valid on Luas 90.91 and 92 bus

You can even get Cork to Larne in Northern Ireland on one ticket

Kildare Dublin has no Sunday service despite having a heavier usage than Cork Cobh

But the machines don't sell the integrated IE tickets. Any reason for this?

MarkoP11 · 14-03-2006 11:51PM

Known issue that has been brought to the attention of management twice

An answer is expected soon

There is no reason why it can't be done

Metrobest · 15-03-2006 12:18PM

Compared to the sleek and sexy luas ticket machines, Irish Rail's machines look amateurish. The front page is a mess; finding the ticket you want is like wading through a crocodile-infested river.. Do Irish Rail not get out much? A cursory glance at a luas, NS or DB TVM would show them how it's done!

markf909 · 15-03-2006 12:34PM

Compared to the sleek and sexy luas ticket machines, Irish Rail's machines look amateurish.

They are the same machines :rolleyes:

SeanW · 15-03-2006 02:09PM

shoegirl wrote:

More? Irish rail fares are already more expensive pro-rata.

EG.
Dublin - Cork - monthly return €65
distance 258km - cost per km 25c
Wolfenbüttel to Hannover €15
79km - cost per km 19c

And the German train will probably be on time, won't be filthy and full of scangers, and is the price for a high speed train - the slow local train is about 65% of the price. We are paying more in Ireland for less of a service.

Besides why do they hire people who cannot talk to make announcements? I use the pretty awful Cobh-Cork service and most of the time I cannot make head nor tail of what the annoucer actually says. (And I can understand a Midleton accent!)

You're so right Shoegirl. The German system is lovely in every respect.

For example, try getting one way tickets on, say a Sunday morning from a terminal location.

In Germany, you can get one-way fares on some really nice trains for under €100-€130 for *really* long journies such as Munich-Berlin and Berlin-Amsterdam.

Show up at Connolly station on a weekend morning to get a one-way ticket to ... oh, say ... Edgeworthstown, it will cost you €30

and because who the fúck wants to one way from Dublin at that time, yo'll be alone on the train with no more than 5 others. And with the wonderful trains being used ... well, that's another story.

T21fan might not want to admit this but CIE/IE does have some strengths such as engineering, like being able to run a nationwide railway network with no funding.

Ticketing however, is not one of their strengths, whoever designed CIE/IEs ticketing policies had their brains up their read ends.

The RPA for all their faults at least managed to figure out that a Single ticket should only cost HALF that of a Return.

Irish Rail needs to throw out their whole damn ticketing policies and adopt those of the MTA Metro North and Long Island Railroads in New York. Or similar model of best practice.

MN/LIRR got it right on ticketing where IE floundered.

One way fares are exactly half that of a Rountrip. Seems simple to most except IE.
Each train is explicitly labelled Peak or Off-Peak, and this is determined very simply by the time the train gets to or leaves Grand Central (for example on a weekday anything getting into the city before 11AM or leaving NYC between 5PM and 9PM is subject to Peak fare, everything is a discounted off-peak fare.
The Fare structure is transparent and simple, and is detailed on train schedules. You can tell EXACTLY how much a journey is going to cost before you leave home.

Train Hell

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