Gaeilge, dead language?

John · 12-03-2006 02:07AM #1

Ronny Mitchell wrote:

Not just at the door, you should speak Irish the entire time. But I'm not going to kick up a fuss about it.

Is that legal? If a place turned you away for not speaking English there'd be uproar.

As you probably noticed, I wasn't at the beers. Term hasn't ended for everyone. I'm in til Thursday.

shay_562 · 12-03-2006 02:59AM

Is that legal? If a place turned you away for not speaking English there'd be uproar.

Don't the Gaeltacht laws mean that there are places in the country where you can't even live if you don't have a high enough level of Irish? Compared to that, a bar refusing to admit you (which could well be covered by the fact that most places have a policy of "Management reserves the right to refuse admission, and does not have to state a reason") is pretty small fry.

John · 12-03-2006 01:49PM

shay_562 wrote:

Don't the Gaeltacht laws mean that there are places in the country where you can't even live if you don't have a high enough level of Irish? Compared to that, a bar refusing to admit you (which could well be covered by the fact that most places have a policy of "Management reserves the right to refuse admission, and does not have to state a reason") is pretty small fry.

I don't think it's covered by that law at all. Yes the management has the right to refuse admission but it's a discriminatory policy. I don't agree with the Gaeltacht thing either. Why should I have restricted access to my own country because I don't speak a language that is effectively dead.

cuckoo · 12-03-2006 04:38PM

John2 wrote:

I don't think it's covered by that law at all. Yes the management has the right to refuse admission but it's a discriminatory policy. I don't agree with the Gaeltacht thing either. Why should I have restricted access to my own country because I don't speak a language that is effectively dead.

*builds air raid shelter*

*realises that the shelter doesn't have a window, so i won't have a view of the ensuing war*

*carefully cuts hole in ceiling of shelter, build ingenious skylight/vertical tunnel contraption with mirrors*

*puts on microwave popcorn*

*sits back and waits for the entertaining hostilities to commence*

Ron DMC · 13-03-2006 12:11AM

John2 wrote:

Why should I have restricted access to my own country because I don't speak a language that is effectively dead.

Firstly, no one is restricting you access anywhere, The conradh has english speakers in almost every night, in fact the place is regularly host to people bringing along american toursits to show them a real Irish pub. All I'm saying is that a birthday party where most of the group are likely to speak English in what is known to be the one of the most Irish language oriented watering holes in the country would probably be frowned upon.

And to refer to Irish as "effectively dead", John, I invite to spend a couple of hours with me wandering around college. I'd imagine around a quarter or more of my day on average, is spent through Irish. And that's not confined to Scoil na Gaeilge either. Many, many people speak Irish on a daily basis, and just because you don't come into contact with them doesn't mean they're not there.

ilovemybrick · 13-03-2006 12:17AM

Ronny Mitchell wrote:

. Many, many people speak Irish on a daily basis, nad just because you don't come into contact with them doesn't mean they're not there.

historic moment so drumroll please.......
...........i agree with what he just said.
(although notice the guy with the spell czech symbol who studies linguistics also typed nad.....)

Pet · 13-03-2006 12:21AM

Why should I have restricted access to my own country because I don't speak a language that is effectively dead.

The reason it's "effectively dead" is because of that attitude. I didn't like learning it in school either, but that's because of the course - ie the Dept Education and their complete disconnection from the youth of Ireland. It's alive and well in many parts of Ireland, and a lot of people, even outside the Gaeltacht speak it on a daily basis.

If you go to half the clubs on Leeson St you won't get in, and it'll be because you're not wearing the right clothes or because you don't look like a rich-but-sex-starved businessman who wants to ogle some tits for a night. At least Conradh na Gaeilge are trying to do some good.

Irish isn't the most technically advanced of languages (and it's certainly no good for a scientist), and I don't want to go on a big patriotic rant about our forefathers and 1916 and whatever, but Irish is important. There's a wealth of information that would be lost in translation, so to let it die, now, after all these years, would be stupid.

Agent Smith · 13-03-2006 12:22AM

even the big man ( myself is lerning a cupla focal!

(thats Right? isnt it?)

Ron DMC · 13-03-2006 12:43AM

agent smith wrote:

even the big man ( myself is lerning a cupla focal!

(thats Right? isnt it?)

He is trying

John · 13-03-2006 01:41AM

Ronny Mitchell wrote:

And to refer to Irish as "effectively dead", John, I invite to spend a couple of hours with me wandering around college. I'd imagine around a quarter or more of my day on average, is spent through Irish. And that's not confined to Scoil na Gaeilge either. Many, many people speak Irish on a daily basis, and just because you don't come into contact with them doesn't mean they're not there.

I never said Irish speakers didn't exist but if you ever sit and listen to Irish speakers on campus or around Dublin, it isn't Irish they are speaking. About 50% of most conversations that I hear are Irish with the remaining 50% being English or pigeon English like "teacs" and "tacsaí". I don't see that as an sign of a thriving language.

Ronny Mitchell wrote:

Firstly, no one is restricting you access anywhere

So when can I move into a house in a Gaeltacht area? Why is a native speaker more important than myself that they have a right to buy there and I don't?

And Pet, my problem with Irish isn't the fact that I had to learn it at school. It's the fact that so much money and resources is wasted on what I see as a black hole. All government documents are translated into Irish. How much money is spent on this a year? How many people read them? Here's an example. Why waste money on translating things like that into Irish for no reason? Why not just make a abstract and translate that into Irish for whoever's interested?

I don't think trying to keep Irish alive is a bad idea. I don't want to get rid of it but I think the pro-Irish people overestimate the importance of the language. By trying to force it down people's necks you're going to put people off.

Ron DMC · 13-03-2006 02:20AM

John2 wrote:

I never said Irish speakers didn't exist but if you ever sit and listen to Irish speakers on campus or around Dublin, it isn't Irish they are speaking. About 50% of most conversations that I hear are Irish with the remaining 50% being English or pigeon English like "teacs" and "tacsaí". I don't see that as an sign of a thriving language.

I will agree with you that sometimes people speaking Irish do throw in a lot of Béarlachas, but if you look at any other language on the planet, English is finding its' way into more conversations and phrases and words. German, Chinese, Spanish etc. I don't see this as a failure on the part of the language, but as a failure on the part of the world.

So when can I move into a house in a Gaeltacht area? Why is a native speaker more important than myself that they have a right to buy there and I don't?

The Government reserve a certain amount of places in certain parts of the country for people who speak Irish. This is done mainly to prevent a dilution of the language in those areas and stop it from losing out to the more dominant language of English in things like business and media.

It's the fact that so much money and resources is wasted on what I see as a black hole. All government documents are translated into Irish. How much money is spent on this a year? How many people read them? Here's an example. Why waste money on translating things like that into Irish for no reason? Why not just make a abstract and translate that into Irish for whoever's interested?

I couldn't agree with you more, there are many worthwhile efforts underway at the moment to help the Irish language, but some of the items in the Acht Teanga take it too far.

I don't think trying to keep Irish alive is a bad idea. I don't want to get rid of it but I think the pro-Irish people overestimate the importance of the language. By trying to force it down people's necks you're going to put people off.

I understand how people can come up with that opinion after having it drilled into them in school, but can you honestly say that now that you're finished school and out in the big bad world, that you still feel that's its' forced upon you. Even roadsigns aren't exactly domineering.
A lot of people I know who hated Irish in school, now wish that they'd paid more attention at the time, so as they could use more than just their cúpla focal. The proolem is that children have a lack of foresight, and a bad teacher, and the peer pressure of other kids telling them how uselesss it is and how their parents haven't spoken since they left school etc. don't help emphasise the importance of learning the language at the time.

John · 13-03-2006 02:58AM

Ronny Mitchell wrote:

I will agree with you that sometimes people speaking Irish do throw in a lot of Béarlachas, but if you look at any other language on the planet, English is finding its' way into more conversations and phrases and words. German, Chinese, Spanish etc. I don't see this as a failure on the part of the language, but as a failure on the part of the world.

I've spent a lot of time abroad and I've never heard so much English used as in Irish conversations (apart, obviously, from English ones). Yes the words pop up but not with the frequency as with Irish speakers.

The Government reserve a certain amount of places in certain parts of the country for people who speak Irish. This is done mainly to prevent a dilution of the language in those areas and stop it from losing out to the more dominant language of English in things like business and media.

That still strikes me as being draconian, making some sort of reverse ghetto where only those who can reach certain standards are allowed in. We're all citizens of this country and should be able to buy a house where we like but this seems like some are more equal than others.

I understand how people can come up with that opinion after having it drilled into them in school, but can you honestly say that now that you're finished school and out in the big bad world, that you still feel that's its' forced upon you. Even roadsigns aren't exactly domineering.

Well it's not drilled in the same way as a daily Irish class but have you ever gone into a shop, had the shopkeeper speak to you in Irish and then look at you in a mixture of pity/disgust because you can't speak a word of it? That happened to me a few weeks ago in a bookshop. It's little things like that where some people who speak Irish just assume that you have Irish and when they find out that you are Irish and don't they get this self-righteous glow about themselves like you're some sort of philistine. I've gotten this sort of treatment several times, the most notable being the ones who continue to talk in Irish to you despite the fact I keep telling them that no, indeed I don't speak a word.

Nietzschean · 13-03-2006 02:59AM

Ronny Mitchell wrote:

I understand how people can come up with that opinion after having it drilled into them in school, but can you honestly say that now that you're finished school and out in the big bad world, that you still feel that's its' forced upon you. Even roadsigns aren't exactly domineering.

I'd agree with john... while they arn't domineering i'd say there is possibly more chinese speakers in the country than irish so putting road signs in chinese and english would be more usefull.... Heck what irish speakers don't understand english so for any tourism reasons some other language would make more sense...

A lot of people I know who hated Irish in school, now wish that they'd paid more attention at the time, so as they could use more than just their cúpla focal. The proolem is that children have a lack of foresight, and a bad teacher, and the peer pressure of other kids telling them how uselesss it is and how their parents haven't spoken since they left school etc. don't help emphasise the importance of learning the language at the time.

while i'd like to probally know more of it, i'd much rather know some usefull language like chinese or japanese.......

ilovemybrick · 13-03-2006 11:54AM

John2 wrote:

I've spent a lot of time abroad and I've never heard so much English used as in Irish conversations (apart, obviously, from English ones). Yes the words pop up but not with the frequency as with Irish speakers.

true of gaeilgóirí in some parts of the country but not all.go to an ceathrú rua and see. go to the aran islands and listen. your point doesnt take into account that in this country we spend the majority of our time communicating in english and then also speak irish. in germany for example they all speak german so obviously they arent going to have english words popping into there heads the way it happens to gaelgóirí here. if anything i think it adds to the idea of irish in the modern ireland that we do have words evolving like you mentioned with teacs. if it doesnt evolve it will die.

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI · 13-03-2006 04:53PM

John2 wrote:

Is that legal? If a place turned you away for not speaking English there'd be uproar.

As you probably noticed, I wasn't at the beers. Term hasn't ended for everyone. I'm in til Thursday.

Wow.....I was going to start a thread based on the exact same quote, was too scared of the inevitable flamewar...fair play...

Hitchhiker's Guide to... · 13-03-2006 05:17PM

Interesting the way when Michael McDowell presented some bill to the Dail in Irish a few weeks ago, the Sunday Tribune (and, i think, Pat Rabitte), essentially accused him of trying to hide the content of the Bill by presenting it as gaeilge. Now, thats the type of top-down attitude we need towards the language from our elected representatives!

Nietzschean · 13-03-2006 06:07PM

you mean from Pat Rabbite or Micheal Mc Dowell? personally i'd be agreeing with Pat, only reason he'd present it in irish is so that most people wouldn't have a clue what he's on about......

ilovemybrick · 13-03-2006 06:13PM

Nietzschean wrote:

you mean from Pat Rabbite or Micheal Mc Dowell? personally i'd be agreeing with Pat, only reason he'd present it in irish is so that most people wouldn't have a clue what he's on about......

its a right and privilege to address the dáil in the first language of this country. its also the duty of any elected official to ensure they either do understand whats going on in the dáil or that they request a translator to ensure they do understand. pat rabbitte was caught out and though im far from a fianna fáil supporter it is just one more thing that rabbitte wants to have a go about. it always looks good for the opposition to be up in arms about something. lazy political tactics. that aside it was imo great to see gaeilge being used as a working language in the dáil by a cabinet member and not just as a gimmick.

John · 13-03-2006 06:18PM

They should either do it all through Irish or all through English. Whilst I recognise that Irish is the nation's first language, it is far from everyone's first language. Even people who can have a normal conversation in Irish may not be able to decipher a bill written in Irish as it's obiously not going to be written in conversational Irish but in a formal way (I don't recall legal Irish being taught at any level in the leaving cert). The vibe I got from that thing was that McDowell was trying to bamboozle people.

Hitchhiker's Guide to... · 13-03-2006 06:21PM

the thing i didn't understand about that debate - is surely there are automatic translations from english-to-irish and irish-to-english in the Dail? maybe not? but similar translation services are available in the Welsh Assembly and the EU parliament.

Nietzschean · 13-03-2006 06:26PM

meh as far as i'm concern'd irish is a historical artifact, its nice and all...should be in a museum not in government.

Which is more beneficial to kids today :
A) Spend 14 odd years learning irish, at the end of which only a few can speak it properly.

Spend 14 years learning chinese/japense/spanish and being conversational in it.

Hrmmm thats a toughie.

John · 13-03-2006 06:30PM

I agree with you there Ian. I'd prefer to do two foreign languages of one foreign language and a useful one like Latin.

europerson · 13-03-2006 06:36PM

Nietzschean wrote:

Which is more beneficial to kids today :
A) Spend 14 odd years learning irish, at the end of which only a few can speak it properly.
Spend 14 years learning chinese/japense/spanish and being conversational in it.

Well, most students study both Irish and a foreign language, so I don't see the problem. English is the language I grew up with, and I learned Irish and German to a high standard at school, so why should it matter? Most students study a language other than English and Irish, don't they? Admittedly, the Continental languages are more useful for the jobs market, but even the most utilitarian economist within me can't tell me that studying a language for its cultural/historical/social value isn't worth it either.

Nietzschean · 13-03-2006 06:45PM

europerson wrote:

Well, most students study both Irish and a foreign language, so I don't see the problem. English is the language I grew up with, and I learned Irish and German to a high standard at school, so why should it matter? Most students study a language other than English and Irish, don't they? Admittedly, the Continental languages are more useful for the jobs market, but even the most utilitarian economist within me can't tell me that studying a language for its cultural/historical/social value isn't worth it either.

We start irish much earlier, and its also compulsary.... in primary school we should be studying a usefull language.
If someone wants to choose irish in second level let them off, but if we've to do 3 languages i personally would like to know 3 usefull ones. Irish being the language i know best other than english and tbh i think its a waste of space in my brain, how much better for me would it be if i could speak chinese that well?

Certainly would keep students more interested also....

Thirdfox · 13-03-2006 06:55PM

anyone seen Yu Ming is Ainm Dom? All about how the Irish can't speak Irish anymore (and that a Chinese guy speaks Irish but no-one understands him)... funny film - but may become fact soon...

Hitchhiker's Guide to... · 13-03-2006 07:31PM

Thirdfox wrote:

anyone seen Yu Ming is Ainm Dom? All about how the Irish can't speak Irish anymore (and that a Chinese guy speaks Irish but no-one understands him)... funny film - but may become fact soon...

heard about that film - meant to be hilarious. Is it on rental?

shay_562 · 13-03-2006 08:40PM

anyone seen Yu Ming is Ainm Dom? All about how the Irish can't speak Irish anymore (and that a Chinese guy speaks Irish but no-one understands him)... funny film - but may become fact soon...

heard about that film - meant to be hilarious. Is it on rental?

I don't think it's on rental - it's only a 10-minute short - but it's repeated on TV from time to time. Pretty funny, and a nice illustration of just how misguided it is to continue referring to Irish as our 'first language' (which, TBH, had more to do with de Valera's own feelings about the language than the general opinion of the country). Thirdfox, didn't you say somewhere a while back that you're in that film? Or did I imagine that...?

Topic: I don't have a problem with Irish in general - despite a personal antipathy towards the language, I'm not going to complain about Dail debates or garda stuff or whatever else being done through Irish, or about it being taught in schools. What I have a problem with is a) the fact that it's compulsory in schools (which is only going to engender hatred of the language) and b) that so much of our public resources are wasted on an essentially dead language. And John makes a good point about the fact that Irish is essentially there only for the select few, who live in their own select areas and drink in their own bars where only people they deem worthy are allowed in. Imagine the outcry if someone was turned away from a bar for chatting with their friends in Irish. English is a national language too, and shouldn't be treated with such disdain - it's how the vast majority of us choose to conduct our everyday lives, so having it treated as the "lesser" language while fluent Irish speakers are given special job opportunities and scholarships to help them get ahead seems pretty discriminatory.

Thirdfox · 13-03-2006 08:50PM

Roundtower2 wrote:

heard about that film - meant to be hilarious. Is it on rental?

Lol... as Shay said it's only a 13 minute short film... you can find it here though:

http://www.atomfilms.com/af/content/yu_ming

I did find out that I need to be able to "communicate" in Irish if I want to become a barrister or solicitor... :eek: I can imagine the court room now... "Dia duit" "Conas ata tu?" ...*silence*

*ps Shay... I'm not not in the film...

Crash · 13-03-2006 08:53PM

John2 wrote:

Is that legal? If a place turned you away for not speaking English there'd be uproar.

As you probably noticed, I wasn't at the beers. Term hasn't ended for everyone. I'm in til Thursday.

Just as an aside - its perfectly legal as the conradh is in fact a members club, not a public house, iirc.

ardmacha · 13-03-2006 09:25PM

About 50% of most conversations that I hear are Irish with the remaining 50% being English or pigeon English like "teacs" and "tacsaí".

This kind of argument is hardly convincing. Taxi is a Greek word which is the same in all European languages. People have no problem in English saying that the stopped off after going to the Gym for a Cappucino, before collecting the child from the creche. Use a similar sequence of words in Irish and it apparently shows that it is not a real language.

Which is more beneficial to kids today :
A) Spend 14 odd years learning irish, at the end of which only a few can speak it properly.
Spend 14 years learning chinese/japense/spanish and being conversational in it.

Japanese would be useful in Japan but most Irish people might never go there, while almost all Irish people spend time in Ireland nowadays.

There is no reason why you should learn Irish for 14 years and fail to speak it while having enormous success with Spanish, or whatever. Nobody is arguing for bad teaching in schools, if there is a problem with teaching it should be improved. Similarily if maths teaching isn't good in schools the solution is to improve the teaching. We are always told that compulsion is the problem, if sex education is compulsory in schools will this put people off sex?

THis is a bit like people in "deprived" areas who put their children off education, on the basis that it is no use. Not having any education, the children indeed find that they have no use for it. Similarly people with no culture.

europerson · 13-03-2006 09:30PM

ardmacha wrote:

if sex education is compulsory in schools will this put people off sex?

Great question!

Gaeilge, dead language?

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