Quick Theory Q re completing the small blind

Gholimoli · 26-01-2006 02:37PM

Waylander wrote:

I agree with Ste, if you are getting 7-1 from small blind you have to call, and I am satisfied that my poker tracker stats back me up here. Yes, you need to hit a strong flop, but you can clean up if you do, if you do not, you fold to any bet on the flop, if you are any way decent post flop this is a winnig tactic in the long run. I am surprised there are people who disagree with this.

thats the point,if you hit the flop hard with junk you will not easily clean up at all.
how much are you going to get paid when you hit the flop hard with 72?
is the UTG gonna pay you on the flop of 72x or 77x.the answer is no.
so chances are when you do hit the flop hard ,then the flop has missed every one else and hence you will not get paid enough to make up for all thoes times that you miss the flop and have to fold .
this + the fact that in a tourny you should have a balance between conserving chips and gaining extra chips makes this bad play.

I would also have to disagree with the the example Culchie gave about staying a raise with Q8 when you know a raiser has KK.
I may very well consider this in a cash game but deffo not in a tourney.
For example suppose you’re in a STT and mid way through it and you have 1600 of your original 2K left.
Would you call a 400 raise with Q8 knowing your opponent has KK, just so if you do hit the flop you will take his stack? I hope not? the reason why you shouldn’t is simple.
You can’t not get any more chips in a tourney but in a cash game you can.

califano · 26-01-2006 02:45PM

True Gholimoli i could have played more cautious.
However i correctly had you on a total steal and was right. At the time it hapenned you were saying "You can only call with AA or KK". I didnt like that. It would be an easy game if you could get people to fold a better hand if you knew they would lay down everything except AA or KK.
Musicians case i had already raised so with chips in the pot and figururing him for overcards i chose to race.
BigD's case i figured(wrongly) his re-raise all in a bit desperate(thought he had 99-10-10 and i chose to race) and had him well covered anyway. I was badly proved wrong when i seen his KK but i got lucky.
Everybody elses case i simply outplayed their ass:D !

p.s
i dont want to spend the rest of the day explaining myself. My reasons are my own. I was probably wrong on everything anyway.

Gholimoli · 26-01-2006 02:56PM

rounders123 wrote:

True Gholimoli i could have played more cautious.
However i correctly had you on a total steal and was right. At the time it hapenned you were saying "You can only call with AA or KK". I didnt like that. It would be an easy game if you could get people to fold a better hand if you knew they would lay down only AA or KK.
Musicians case i had already raised so with chips in the pot and figururing him for overcards i chose to race.
BigD's case i figured(wrongly) his re-raise all in a bit desperate(thought he had 99-10-10 and i chose to race) and had him well covered anyway. I was badly proved wrong when i seen his KK but i got lucky.
Everybody elses case i simply outplayed their ass:D !

p.s
i dont want to spend the rest of the day explaining myself. My reaasons are my own. I was probably wrong on everything anyway.

you dont have to explian your self at all.
the fact remians though even in my case you were wrong to call even if you could have seen my cards.
you have 22K and the average stack in the final table with 8 ppl left was about 11K.
you made it 2400 and i pushed for the whole 11K .
at best you were 50/50.had you won the extra 11K would not really do that much for your chances of getting to the 4 place as you could have esialy folded your way to there.
had you lost though you would have come down to just 11K which was the avarage stack at the time and then you would have been under pressure again becasue you had to compete with the remaning players.
to be honest even with AA or KK i would have just pushed all in.if i got a caller then so be it but i would not be upset if i didnt.
remember the point was to get to 4th place not to win it.
making thoes calls were extra risks that didnt have much reward.

Culchie · 26-01-2006 02:57PM

Gholimoli wrote:

I would also have to disagree with the the example Culchie gave about staying a raise with Q8 when you know a raiser has KK.
I may very well consider this in a cash game but deffo not in a tourney.
For example suppose you’re in a STT and mid way through it and you have 1600 of your original 2K left.
Would you call a 400 raise with Q8 knowing your opponent has KK, just so if you do hit the flop you will take his stack? I hope not? the reason why you shouldn’t is simple.
You can’t not get any more chips in a tourney but in a cash game you can.

I hate it when people quote things out of context and then apply it to a situation to suit their argument.

Please show me where I said I would call off 25% of my stack calling a KK raise.

Read through my opinions (and that's all they are..opinions) and you'll see that I made continuous references to players, stack sizes, opponents, player styles, amount of blinds, standard of players...even random indicator on whether I'm calling or raising, blah blah, blah.

I am simply offering a defence and some reasons why I don't like folding my SB to a limping table.....especially if the blinds are big.

Gholimoli · 26-01-2006 03:05PM

Culchie wrote:

I hate it when people quote things out of context and then apply it to a situation to suit their argument.

Please show me where I said I would call off 25% of my stack calling a KK raise.

Read through my opinions (and that's all they are..opinions) and you'll see that I made continuous references to players, stack sizes, opponents, player styles, amount of blinds, standard of players...even random indicator on whether I'm calling or raising, blah blah, blah.

I am simply offering a defence and some reasons why I don't like folding my SB to a limping table.....especially if the blinds are big.

Cluchi,
i understand what your saying and I understood the example you gave about the Q8.
How ever, stack sizes, blind size, opponents, table condition, image on the table, position, etc they are all the things that would make a situation unique. Anything in poker can be correct if the situation calls for it.
How ever this is not what the OP asked.
he asked is it always to correct to complete SB based on the odds your getting with any two cards?
And this is what I was trying to argue, that no it’s not always correct to do so with any two cards.

Ste05 · 26-01-2006 03:11PM

Gholi did you even read the OP, in that situation described I'm calling with any 2 100% of the time.

Log off for a short time and I miss all this, damn.

Fuzzbox, in the 72o and flop of 77x example you gave. I'm loving that situation exactly what are you afraid of 44, or 74??, How on earth could I be drawing to 3 outs?? A decent player does not limp with any hand I'm afraid of, bar possibly 76s, 78s or A7s, and since 3 7's are gone, I'm not even thinking of these.

fuzzbox · 26-01-2006 03:14PM

Gholimoli wrote:

you dont have to explian your self at all.
the fact remians though even in my case you were wrong to call even if you could have seen my cards.
you have 22K and the average stack in the final table with 8 ppl left was about 11K.
you made it 2400 and i pushed for the whole 11K .
at best you were 50/50.had you won the extra 11K would not really do that much for your chances of getting to the 4 place as you could have esialy folded your way to there.
had you lost though you would have come down to just 11K which was the avarage stack at the time and then you would have been under pressure again becasue you had to compete with the remaning players.
to be honest even with AA or KK i would have just pushed all in.if i got a caller then so be it but i would not be upset if i didnt.
remember the point was to get to 4th place not to win it.
making thoes calls were extra risks that didnt have much reward.

Just to throw an oar in ....

If he knows you have two overcards, (aka he sees your cards), then he should beat you to the pot.

2400 is over 10% of his stack. Folding would put him on 18k or so.

Calling if you have overs gives him

11k + 55% of 22k = 12.1k. For a total of 23.1k.

Clearly calling is far superior to folding.

When it gets hairy is "do you have an overpair".
If you have an overpair ... say 33% of the time (not unreasonable).

Then its
11k + 17% of (33% of 22k) + 55% of (67% of 22k)

which is 11k + 1234 + 8107 = 20341
Which is still superior to folding.

So you have to have an overpair more than 33% (about 40% maybe) of the time in order to want to fold here.

If you could possibly make this move with 77 or 66, then its a big time call.

ntlbell · 26-01-2006 03:15PM

Gholimoli wrote:

you dont have to explian your self at all.
the fact remians though even in my case you were wrong to call even if you could have seen my cards.
you have 22K and the average stack in the final table with 8 ppl left was about 11K.
you made it 2400 and i pushed for the whole 11K .
at best you were 50/50.had you won the extra 11K would not really do that much for your chances of getting to the 4 place as you could have esialy folded your way to there.
had you lost though you would have come down to just 11K which was the avarage stack at the time and then you would have been under pressure again becasue you had to compete with the remaning players.
to be honest even with AA or KK i would have just pushed all in.if i got a caller then so be it but i would not be upset if i didnt.
remember the point was to get to 4th place not to win it.
making thoes calls were extra risks that didnt have much reward.

I was watching this and I don't think it's that bad of a call (I've made alot worse

). At the time it did look like a fairly obvious steal, if he felt you were on the steal then in his mind it was no where near a 50/50, a chance to knock another player out and if he wins he's practically guarnteed a ticket, he also sent out a big message that he wasn't going to be pushed off his hands easily

He was by far one of the better players playing and I'm sure he knew that himself, so even if he did loose the hand i think he would of outplayed most of the reaming players into a position for the ticket anyway.

If you think only AA/KK will call here you're in for a few suprises

fuzzbox · 26-01-2006 03:17PM

Ste05 wrote:

Gholi did you even read the OP, in that situation described I'm calling with any 2 100% of the time.

Log off for a short time and I miss all this, damn.

Fuzzbox, in the 72o and flop of 77x example you gave. I'm loving that situation exactly what are you afraid of 44, or 74??, How on earth could I be drawing to 3 outs?? A decent player does not limp with any hand I'm afraid of, bar possibly 76s, 78s or A7s, and since 3 7's are gone, I'm not even thinking of these.

So how do you get paid then, from this good player?
If you obliterate the possibility that somebody might have a 7 with a better kicker than you from your mind, then its easy to shove your chips in and just chalk it up to bad luck, when that good player turns over 79 on the button.

If you can limp in the SB getting 7:1 with any two cards, then why can Mr. Button not limp in with some reasonable hands (like 79 or A7 or 76 or 78), in GOOD position?

Ste05 · 26-01-2006 03:22PM

fuzzbox wrote:

So how do you get paid then, from this good player?
If you obliterate the possibility that somebody might have a 7 with a better kicker than you from your mind, then its easy to shove your chips in and just chalk it up to bad luck, when that good player turns over 79 on the button.

Well I don't think I'd be just shoving my chips in... :eek: . You extract value by playing the player.... I'm not even going to start on this....

EDIT: If he has a better 7, then fair play to him, make a note and move on...

fuzzbox wrote:

If you can limp in the SB getting 7:1 with any two cards, then why can Mr. Button not limp in with some reasonable hands (like 79 or A7 or 76 or 78), in GOOD position?

Because he's not getting 7:1 and there's 2 people to act and either could raise.

I think we'll just leave this one there.

P.S. Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons again.

If I'm getting 7:1 on the button I'm also calling with any 2, even risking one of the blinds raising.

califano · 26-01-2006 03:25PM

Anyway Gholimoli. You were quite a mystical charachter around here before you emerged. I will look forward to say hello to you in Drogheda. Your enjoying yourself here anyway, i can tell.
I have visions of you as that bloke in 'Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom'. The one who plucks out a chaps heart with his fingernails while chanting "Gholi Maw, Gholi Maw, Gholi Maw" before lowerering him into the flames with everyone in the background chanting "Sukaram Sukaram Sukaram Sakaram Ram Ram".

You arent like him are you?:D

Culchie · 26-01-2006 03:25PM

fuzzbox wrote:

So how do you get paid then, from this good player?
If you obliterate the possibility that somebody might have a 7 with a better kicker than you from your mind, then its easy to shove your chips in and just chalk it up to bad luck, when that good player turns over 79 on the button.

If you can limp in the SB getting 7:1 with any two cards, then why can Mr. Button not limp in with some reasonable hands (like 79 or A7 or 76 or 78), in GOOD position?

That's tough titties then isn't it. There's only four 7's in the pack. hl gg

You're making me scared to play any cards at all now, because the big bad man on the button is waiting to mug me.

fuzzbox · 26-01-2006 03:29PM

Culchie wrote:

That's tough titties then isn't it. There's only four 7's in the pack. hl gg

Its comments like this that make players lose a LOT of money

You're making me scared to play any cards at all now, because the big bad man on the button is waiting to mug me.

He is. Better to be that big bad man, than to be the victim in the SB.

Culchie · 26-01-2006 03:32PM

Comments don't lose you any money.

Anyways, wtf was he doing limping in with 79o on the button anyway, he should have been raising with that monster preflop.

fuzzbox · 26-01-2006 03:32PM

Culchie wrote:

Comments don't lose you any money.

Anyways, wtf was he doing limping in with 79o on the button anyway, he should have been raising with that monster preflop.

He was trapping preflop. No need to raise to scare away his customers.

Culchie · 26-01-2006 03:37PM

Sure, who'd fall for that one?

GG. NH

Gholimoli · 26-01-2006 03:39PM

ntlbell wrote:

I was watching this and I don't think it's that bad of a call (I've made alot worse ). At the time it did look like a fairly obvious steal, if he felt you were on the steal then in his mind it was no where near a 50/50, a chance to knock another player out and if he wins he's practically guarnteed a ticket, he also sent out a big message that he wasn't going to be pushed off his hands easily

He was by far one of the better players playing and I'm sure he knew that himself, so even if he did loose the hand i think he would of outplayed most of the reaming players into a position for the ticket anyway.

If you think only AA/KK will call here you're in for a few suprises

im sure we have all made worse calls than this but these calls were up there with them all.
this is a final table with 8 ppl remaining and you need to get to 4th even 5th and you have twice as many chips as any one else .
you dont need to send any messages that your not getting pushed of your hand.
As for him being far better than any one else there, well he made about 4 or 5 calls that strongly suggest other wise.
I’m not saying he is a bad player (to be honest I don’t know much about him).
I’m saying he made very bad calls, now it could have been that he just wanted to win it and didn’t care about the ticket or the prise etc.
But if his intension were to get a ticket then he made bad calls.
He was 22K with ppl remaining and the average of other 7 was 11K.
In order for another player to get near his stack then one player would have to be eliminated which leaves 7.
In order for yet another player to get near his stack then another player has to eliminated which leaves 6 .
Do you get my point now? he didn’t need to play for 11K at all and specially not with 88.

Culchie · 26-01-2006 03:50PM

Gholimoli wrote:

im sure we have all made worse calls than this but these calls were up there with them all.
this is a final table with 8 ppl remaining and you need to get to 4th even 5th and you have twice as many chips as any one else .
you dont need to send any messages that your not getting pushed of your hand.
As for him being far better than any one else there, well he made about 4 or 5 calls that strongly suggest other wise.
I’m not saying he is a bad player (to be honest I don’t know much about him).
I’m saying he made very bad calls, now it could have been that he just wanted to win it and didn’t care about the ticket or the prise etc.
But if his intension were to get a ticket then he made bad calls.
He was 22K with ppl remaining and the average of other 7 was 11K.
In order for another player to get near his stack then one player would have to be eliminated which leaves 7.
In order for yet another player to get near his stack then another player has to eliminated which leaves 6 .
Do you get my point now? he didn’t need to play for 11K at all and specially not with 88.

what did you have Gholimoli?

Gholimoli · 26-01-2006 04:01PM

rounders123 wrote:

Anyway Gholimoli. You were quite a mystical charachter around here before you emerged. I will look forward to say hello to you in Drogheda. Your enjoying yourself here anyway, i can tell.
I have visions of you as that bloke in 'Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom'. The one who plucks out a chaps heart with his fingernails while chanting "Gholi Maw, Gholi Maw, Gholi Maw" before lowerering him into the flames with everyone in the background chanting "Sukaram Sukaram Sukaram Sakaram Ram Ram".

You arent like him are you?:D

i cant stop laughing now.
now im picturing my self as that.
"Gholi Maw ,Gholi Maw":D

Gholimoli · 26-01-2006 04:03PM

Culchie wrote:

what did you have Gholimoli?

JT a monster of a hand .
i was shocked to loose it.

Culchie · 26-01-2006 04:08PM

Gholimoli wrote:

JT a monster of a hand .
i was shocked to loose it.

One could say it wasn't very clever moving in on the chip leader like that after a pre-flop raise..it wasn't the best move in the world, so there's a case for Rounders123 making that call especially if villan has known form

PPP-Pit Boss · 26-01-2006 04:09PM

But one someone please thing of the children?
And the table image... folding the sb when no raise NEVER!

RoundTower · 26-01-2006 04:19PM

fuzzbox wrote:

So you have to have an overpair more than 33% (about 40% maybe) of the time in order to want to fold here.

If you could possibly make this move with 77 or 66, then its a big time call.

Having puzzled out what Gholimoli wrote, it seems like this hand happened in some kind of supersatellite close to the money. In that case it is probably a good fold.

Culchie · 26-01-2006 04:20PM

PPP-Pit Boss wrote:

But one someone please thing of the children?
And the table image... folding the sb when no raise NEVER!

and the min raise brigade when you're in the big blind .... yummy

fuzzbox · 26-01-2006 04:31PM

RoundTower wrote:

Having puzzled out what Gholimoli wrote, it seems like this hand happened in some kind of supersatellite close to the money. In that case it is probably a good fold.

For reasons already stated

If villain is expected to have an overpair less than 40% of the time that he makes this move, then you should call.

In practice, that number is usually lower than 40%, so its more likely to be a reasonably good call.

The 2400 that hero lobbed into the middle already kinda helps.

He needs to call 8600 for a pot currently at 11k + 2400 + blinds (dunno what they were, say 200/400). So say 14k. He is not getting bad odds for his call ... 14:8, very similar to 3:2 (which are the correct odds if villain will ONLY push with AK or AA or KK). Thus its a call. In practice, villain will push with a whole lot more than this (AK/AQ/AJ/AT/AA/KK/QQ/JJ/TT/99/KQs/KJs ...and as it turns out JT .... and also some will push 77/66/55 here too).

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 55.3916 % 55.19% 00.20% { 99+, ATs+, KJs+, JTs, ATo+, KQo, JTo }
Hand 2: 44.6084 % 44.41% 00.20% { 88 }

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 51.0801 % 50.54% 00.54% { 55+, ATs+, KJs+, JTs, ATo+, KQo, JTo }
Hand 2: 48.9199 % 48.38% 00.54% { 88 }

This is a call more often than a fold.

Norwich Fan Rob · 26-01-2006 04:40PM

i would complete in most cases if several limpers, but proceed with great caution post flop.

lol at a guy who min raises his bb after 6 limpers in a tourney last night, i was trying to think what could he have, if its a monster, thats awful as 6 will see the flop, and if its not a monster, thats awful cause hes got terrible position for the rest of the hand. (just wrote muppet in his notes)

I would also usually call with any 2 on the button (unless short stacked) if there was some limpers and no raise.

one problem with "bb specials" i find is flopping bottom 2 pairs, the amount of times u can get sucked in with this (putting limper on over pair etc) and get outdrawn is amazing.

marius · 26-01-2006 04:56PM

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

i would complete in most cases if several limpers, but proceed with great caution post flop.

lol at a guy who min raises his bb after 6 limpers in a tourney last night, i was trying to think what could he have, if its a monster, thats awful as 6 will see the flop, and if its not a monster, thats awful cause hes got terrible position for the rest of the hand. (just wrote muppet in his notes)

I would also usually call with any 2 on the button (unless short stacked) if there was some limpers and no raise.

one problem with "bb specials" i find is flopping bottom 2 pairs, the amount of times u can get sucked in with this (putting limper on over pair etc) and get outdrawn is amazing.

If that is the case then you can put in another note.

marius=muppet.

I don't think it is a bad move to min raise from bb if you have a monster with 6 limpers. It is always nice to knock a few limpers off regardless of your hand but especially if it is a monster. Seen AA get busted by 3 9 etc too many times.

Worst case scenario all the limpers call - in which case your monster is going to win you even more money......

ntlbell · 26-01-2006 05:04PM

marius wrote:

If that is the case then you can put in another note.

marius=muppet.

I don't think it is a bad move to min raise from bb if you have a monster with 6 limpers. It is always nice to knock a few limpers off regardless of your hand but especially if it is a monster. Seen AA get busted by 3 9 etc too many times.

Worst case scenario all the limpers call - in which case your monster is going to win you even more money......

I think the point he's trying to make is that making a min raise isn't going to be knocking anyone out of the hand

and the last thing you want is another 6 random hands going to a flop with a monster.

so the worst case scenario is not winning more money, it's having your so called monster cracked and you getting all your chips in because you refuse to let it go and going home crying banging your head of the steering wheel wondering why some idiot with 93 flopped a full house

hotspur · 26-01-2006 05:05PM

I have no problem chucking my SB of rags with several limpers, 1st to act and I've hit my 7 with 4 kicker? How the hell do I win the pot from there? Bet the pot and fold to any raise? Depends a little bit on the quality of the opposition but it'll take some moron to lose a big pot with a pair in a multiway pot with the 2 blinds along for the ride. I'll almost always call if they're suited or connected but the real muck belongs there in my opinion, odds be dammed, the issue isn't your chances of hitting compared to the blind you call it's the issue of taking the pot down. I'll call more often in cash games because players are more likely to just not bother with the pot if you lead on the rag or double small-medium carded flop, in tournies people will play back at you for the pot.

Culchie · 26-01-2006 05:08PM

Marius, of you have AA in the BB and a whole heap of limpers, you want to get his narrowed down to one or two (max) callers, so you should be raising agressively.

You've only got 4 opportunities to put chips into the pot, the rest of the table has given you a great head start, I'd be betting the pot here at the very least.

No-one in their right mind is going to fold to your min raise, even though you have got AA stamped to your forehead.