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Decentralisation

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  • #1082
    pete
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,733 ✭✭✭pete


    ishmael whale wrote:
    They could have put in on the front page, with the headline

    "Kenny says voters too stupid to see decentralisation is a load of toss"

    NNIMBY - Not Not In My Back Yard


  • #1083
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Filling out the supplementary application for HEO this evening.
    Still damned if I know what to put in the section "Willingness to embrace change"...... I did enter the damned competition after all, but I can't very well say that.......


  • #1084
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    This from the 'Examiner':

    Naturally, the minister ignores the fact that experienced staff, an expensive and hard-to-replace asset, will be lost.

    A better headline would have been: 'Minister compares Limerick to Liberia'
    12/01/06

    Ahern rebuffs aid agencies over decentralisation plea
    By Michael O’Farrell, Political Reporter
    FOREIGN Affairs Minister Dermot Ahern last night delivered a stinging rebuke to aid agencies and opposition parties who want him to reverse plans to decentralise the Government’s foreign aid section.

    Under the Government’s decentralisation programme, Development Co-operation Ireland (DCI) is scheduled to be relocated to Limerick at the beginning of 2007.

    However, with just 13 of the agency’s 123 staff in favour of the move, 35 aid agencies yesterday wrote to Mr Ahern asking him to reverse the decision.

    Their concerns, though, were given short shrift by the minister, who promised to follow through on the plan regardless.

    “It seems to be quite illogical, the notion that aid agencies can work in Liberia or Lesotho but not Limerick,” he said.

    Mr Ahern pointed to the 1991 decentralisation of the development committee of the OECD from London to Dhaka in Bangladesh.

    “There was uproar at moving people half way across the world but that move has worked in an era which had none of the air transport or communications links we currently enjoy.

    “However, apparently it is not possible for a development agency to function in the computer age of 2007 by moving 100 miles down the road to Limerick.”

    But in its letter to Mr Ahern, Dochas - the Irish Association of Non-Governmental Organisations - warned that the move posed “a significant threat to the hitherto high quality of the Irish aid programme”.

    “This proposal will lead to a loss of expertise and will slow down much-needed aid,” said Dochas director Hans Zomer.

    That view has been expressed by all opposition parties, unions and academics. And the DCI advisory board has warned of the implications.


  • #1085
    MadMoss
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86 ✭✭MadMoss


    As a contract employee with a state agency earmarked for decentralisation it might be of interest to others that all new contract employees in my agency now have a clause in their contract that states, "Your continued employment is on condition that you live wherever the head quarters of this agency is based, further, we are due to decentralise to another location (specified)". (I decided not to use the exact wording of the clause and paraphrase.)
    My reading of this is basically the answer to decentralisation is if you don't go, you will be fired.
    Is there anyone left who still believes that the government’s decentralisation proposals are voluntary?
    What a bummer eh?
    Later.


  • #1086
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    MadMoss wrote:
    As a contract employee with a state agency earmarked for decentralisation it might be of interest to others that all new contract employees in my agency now have a clause in their contract that states, "Your continued employment is on condition that you live wherever the head quarters of this agency is based, further, we are due to decentralise to another location (specified)". (I decided not to use the exact wording of the clause and paraphrase.)
    My reading of this is basically the answer to decentralisation is if you don't go, you will be fired.
    Is there anyone left who still believes that the government’s decentralisation proposals are voluntary?
    What a bummer eh?
    Later.

    Its been that way for the last 14 months in the civil service too. In addition to this- all promotions (be they internal or external) are contingent on the person agreeing to decentralise. I.e. your career is stone dead in the water unless you agree to decentralise...... You are right though- calling it voluntary is stretching the truth to breaking point. Strictly speaking- you did not have to take the job- it was a condition attached to taking the job that you signed up to- i.e. you volunteered. Similiarly- I sat exams recently (along with several thousand more people). Despite the fact that I did very well in the exams and promotion is based on merit, a condition attached to promotion is that I decentralise- i.e. I volunteered. Thus- volunteering has no correlation whatsoever with people wanting to go anywhere. If you hold a gun to someone's head and tell them that you will shoot them unless they volunteer to jump into a river- I guess most people will volunteer to jump into the river...... The difference between the act of volunteering and the act of coercian appear to have gotten blurred somewhere......

    By the way there is what is known as the 52 week rule. Basically- if you have been in a location for over 52 weeks, you cannot be moved against your will. I have heard that two of the unions are eager to test contracts that people were obliged to sign, to see whether they still come under the 52 week rule or not (thats the CPSU and the PSEU). As yet its untested though.

    Why does the rather unpolitically correct joke about the dyslexic devil worshipers who sold their souls to Santa come to mind?


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  • #1087
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    smccarrick wrote:
    Its been that way for the last 14 months in the civil service too. In addition to this- all promotions (be they internal or external) are contingent on the person agreeing to decentralise.
    What happens if you accept a promotion, agree to decentralise & it's in a department which is remaining in Dublin for a few years. If & when the move is to take place and you refused to move (maybe because you could no longer afford to), would you be demoted or fired?

    What happens if the move is cancelled, would people who declined promotion because of the requirement to agree to move be entitled to be reconsidered for promotion?


  • #1088
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    You would be entitled to a position at the original grade you had been in prior to decentralisation. You would enter your previous grade at the salary point you were on prior to decentralisation, however seniority in that grade would be reset to "0". In addition, placement in your original grade would be by the Public Appointments Service- not by the home department, and you would most likely be placed into a new department.


  • #1089
    jd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭jd


    Dermot Ahern was on the radio a few days ago. Basically he said that there should be no problem retraining people to cover positions where people wouldn't decentralise. I'm wondering how he proposes to condense 4 year degree courses in Science, Engineering and Computer Science/IT etcas well as the specific training for the job, when he trains up civil servant staff to cover specialist positions.??


  • #1090
    eigrod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,124 ✭✭✭eigrod


    This will really get interesting when these "new" people sit down to be trained by the people whose posts they are effectively taking.


  • #1091
    MadMoss
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86 ✭✭MadMoss


    eigrod wrote:
    This will really get interesting when these "new" people sit down to be trained by the people whose posts they are effectively taking.
    It's going to we awkward at best. At worst there will be insults flying left and right. I am annoyed over the whole issue but some staff in my state agecny are furious.


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  • #1092
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    smccarrick wrote:
    You would be entitled to a position at the original grade you had been in prior to decentralisation. You would enter your previous grade at the salary point you were on prior to decentralisation, however seniority in that grade would be reset to "0". In addition, placement in your original grade would be by the Public Appointments Service- not by the home department, and you would most likely be placed into a new department.
    So, it could be quite an interesting bet (not to mention experience) to go for promotion in a non-'early-mover' department in the hope that they eventually do not move.

    Worst case, you end up with a few year's extra salary before being dumped into a non-job, where you would have been sent in the first place?


  • #1093
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,758 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    MadMoss wrote:
    "Your continued employment is on condition that you live wherever the head quarters of this agency is based, further, we are due to decentralise to another location (specified)".
    Are they saying you have to reside where the agency is based?

    Or that you should pitch a tent behind your desk?


  • #1094
    MadMoss
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86 ✭✭MadMoss


    Victor wrote:
    Are they saying you have to reside where the agency is based?

    Or that you should pitch a tent behind your desk?

    Yep that's what's in the contract. You have to live where the headquarters is based. Does anyone know if my employer is entitled to do that? It sounds a bit OTT to me.


  • #1095
    eigrod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,124 ✭✭✭eigrod


    Fine Gael's position as per Enda Kenny on Radio1 lunchtime Sunday & today's Examiner.

    To be honest, I think that he has outlined it fairly well, assuming they would follow up on it in the event they got into Government. Go ahead where the demand is there, drop it where its not - logical enough i.m.o.

    I've never voted FG or FF, and probably will never give a no. 1, but this would tempt me to give a preference.
    Fine Gael vows to reverse decentralisation if necessary

    By Harry McGee, Political Editor
    FINE Gael yesterday committed itself to significantly slashing the Government's ambitious decentralisation programme if necessary.

    Party leader, Enda Kenny, pledged that a FG-led government would carry out an audit of the plan to transfer more than 10,000 public servants from Dublin to 53 locations around the country.

    He described the current situation as a "shambles" yesterday.

    He also made it clear that if the numbers did not stack up for new locations, he would take the hard decision of reversing the policy for some locations.

    "Where the numbers and skills measure up, you go ahead. When it is not going to happen, there needs to be some honesty and straightforwardness," he said, in a clear indication that his party would seek alternative locations or withdraw that part of the programme altogether.

    He also said that Fine Gael was opposed to any ministerial offices or senior civil services being moved out of Dublin.

    Citing reasons of good governance, he said if it was allowed go ahead it "would destroy the corporate memory of the department and you destroy efficiency."

    This new direction may prove high risk for Fine Gael as Government-side TDs will inevitably challenge the party to name the locations it will drop and to outline how many civil servants would move under its revised plans.


  • #1096
    holly_johnson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭holly_johnson


    eigrod wrote:
    Fine Gael's position as per Enda Kenny on Radio1 lunchtime Sunday & today's Examiner.

    To be honest, I think that he has outlined it fairly well, assuming they would follow up on it in the event they got into Government. Go ahead where the demand is there, drop it where its not - logical enough i.m.o.

    I've never voted FG or FF, and probably will never give a no. 1, but this would tempt me to give a preference.


    Seems very vague to me... just the usual "say what people want to hear" tripe. I wonder what his detailed plan is. If there is one!


  • #1097
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    eigrod wrote:
    To be honest, I think that he has outlined it fairly well, assuming they would follow up on it in the event they got into Government. Go ahead where the demand is there, drop it where its not - logical enough i.m.o.
    Enda seems to have taken his eye off the ball: COST EFFECTIVENESS.

    The biggest demand is for people moving from one non-Dublin location to another. (e.g. Limerick to Kilrush, Cahirciveen-Killarney) Enda is ignoring the cost and any benefit to the economy. It's turning into a rather expensive family-friendly initiative.


  • #1098
    Dinarius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,440 ✭✭✭Dinarius


    It seems to me that he is (sensibly) advocating the kind of decentralisation that already exists. i.e. allowing back office (or non-executive or decision making) to move down the country - loads of examples of this have existed for years - while keeping the strategic, policy making bit in Dublin.

    I'd vote for that, though I agree it's very risky for FG.

    D.


  • #1099
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Dinarius wrote:
    It seems to me that he is (sensibly) advocating the kind of decentralisation that already exists. i.e. allowing back office (or non-executive or decision making) to move down the country - loads of examples of this have existed for years - while keeping the strategic, policy making bit in Dublin.
    I'd vote for that, though I agree it's very risky for FG.
    D.
    You mean like moving all IT jobs out Dublin when hardly any expensively-trained IT staff want to move and there's a national shortage of IT workers?

    You'd vote for that?


  • #1100
    Dinarius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,440 ✭✭✭Dinarius


    That's not what I meant.

    If he combines a willingness to move with an emphasis on non-executive grades and departments then, yes, I would vote for it.

    My wife's salary is calculated and dispatched from an office somewhere in Mayo. The work being done there could be done anywhere.

    Also, while I believe that the executive should stay put, there could be exceptions. e.g. Marine is fully subscribed and ready to move to Clonakilty. Politically, it is a non-event. Administratively, it is chicken feed. It could be done anywhere, so good luck to them.

    Government can learn a lot from any large, private sector organisations. IBM or Intel will do what they can, where they can. But, for the most part, they will make key policy decisions in one location only. That is as it should be.

    This brainless exercise was McCreevy's farewell present to a government he almost certainly knew he was leaving when he made the announcement. Go figure! ;-)

    D.


  • #1101
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Dinarius wrote:
    If he combines a willingness to move with an emphasis on non-executive grades and departments then, yes, I would vote for it.
    What about costs and benefits? Shouldn't there be a justification for spending the money?

    Government estimates are that it will take 20 years for the policy to pay for itself. Even if that's correct (and when did the Government ever gets its project costs right?), I think I could get a better return on a billion euro just by putting in the Credit Union.


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  • #1102
    Dinarius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,440 ✭✭✭Dinarius


    If you take a 20 clerical staff out of, say, Adelaide Road, and plonk them in Clonakilty, it has GOT to be cheaper. If you can sell the building to pay for it, then in the long run, yes it should pay off.

    D.


  • #1103
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Dinarius wrote:
    If you take a 20 clerical staff out of, say, Adelaide Road, and plonk them in Clonakilty, it has GOT to be cheaper. If you can sell the building to pay for it, then in the long run, yes it should pay off.
    D.
    Assuming that the 20 staff go with their jobs & that the Dublin office is then empty.

    Where's the saving in taking 20 staff out of Cahirciveen, moving them to Killarney, training them in new jobs & then hiring & training 20 new staff for Cahirciveen while leaving another 20 with nothing to do in Dublin?

    Now, what about IT, Ordinance survey, Fas, the Probation Service and Bus Eireann?


  • #1104
    ishmael whale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭ishmael whale


    Enda Kenny's proposal is at least a move in the right direction, but its still short of a coherent policy. Hopefully this isn't as good as it gets.

    If he was saying that he'd proceed on the basis of where it would save money, that would be one thing. But he seems to be saying he'd proceed where he can get enough volunteers. That amounts to saying that any civil servant anywhere in the country (not just Dublin) has the right to demand the taxpayer to stump up a few hundred thousand to move their job to the town of their choice.

    Its not as pat as saying office accomodation must surely be cheaper in regional towns, and assuming that the differential is enough to justify the investment. Firstly, there's cost involved in operating from multiple locations. Secondly, the country already seems to be starting to be littered with underutilised staff from previous decentralisations whose jobs have vanished but who cannot easily be relocated to other work. Department of Agriculture staff in Castlebar who are no longer needed due to the simplified EU grant system are a case in point - they are still on the payroll, but doing no work. Also, they presumably leave vacant office space in Castlebar which cost real money to provide and is now wasted.

    Equally, the move of the Legal Aid Board to Cahirciveen led to the overhead that the Board now needs two offices, as it still retains a significant Dublin presence.

    These practical factors have to be remembered. Decentralisation has not been a happy experience to date and, if anything, seems to have lead to increased costs.


  • #1105
    pete
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,733 ✭✭✭pete


    From last Friday's Irish Times:
    The number of staff in the aid division of the Department of Foreign Affairs willing to transfer to Limerick has fallen since December, but a spokesman for Minister Dermot Ahern insisted the move would still go ahead.

    He was responding to a statement from Fine Gael TD Bernard Allen on the proposed decentralisation of Development Co-operation Ireland.

    "The decentralisation process has now slipped into reverse. The number of staff from within DCI volunteering to move, from a total staff of 123, has dropped from 28 to 24," Mr Allen said.

    These figures take account of six specialist staff who have withdrawn their applications since December.

    uh oh...

    edit: timing related to this, i wonder?


  • #1106
    pete
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,733 ✭✭✭pete


    pete wrote:
    uh oh...

    edit: timing related to this, i wonder?

    And it seems they're not alone
    More than 200 civil servants have withdrawn their applications for decentralisation since the scheme was launched in 2003 by finance minister Charlie McCreevy, according to new figures from the Department of Finance.

    The department said it did not know how many government workers were now willing to relocate to other parts of the country. Since 2004, the Central Applications Facility (CAF) has received more than 10,700 applications from civil and public servants willing to decentralise.

    Since then, however, the government has made no effort to find out if the applicants are still interested in moving to a different area. A spokesman for the Department of Finance said there was ‘‘no point in stress-testing the numbers’’ until the means to transfer jobs were in place.
    Bear in mind that this doesn't include people who have 'expressed an interest' but have no intention of going anywhere.


  • #1107
    ishmael whale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭ishmael whale


    I laughed.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50913512&postcount=7


  • #1108
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    ishmael whale wrote:
    I laughed.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50913512&postcount=7

    :) Well, the 'Sunday Tribune' reports that Carrick on Shannon is proving very popular............with staff already working in Longford (& probably living in C-on-S)


  • #1109
    caldwelk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭caldwelk


    Carrick on Shannon is proving very popular, only with staff already in Longford and Sligo though. Out of the 220 jobs for Carrick, I think the figures are about 150 staff from Sligo and Longford want to go.

    Dublin staff are not being decentralised, people currently living in the West and working in Sligo or Longford will have a shorter drive to work. That's all.

    The financing solution of selling expensive Dublin office space and purchasing a cheaper building in Carrick on Shannon doesn't add up either. It only works if all 220 staff move from Dublin.
    As it is, the 150 or so staff that want to stay in Dublin must be accomodated somewhere. A new office building will have to be purchased or existing buildings will have to be extended. Will these costs be published as Decentralisation expenses?

    Also, the expenses allegedly being offered for people to travel to Dublin to train are about €90 - €100 per week. Will people from Sligo and Longford really be willing to leave families, etc to stay in Dublin for 1 - 2 months to train for money that barely covers their rent?
    Will people from Dublin be willing to move to Carrick on Shannon for 1 - 2 months to train people for the same money?

    This scheme is like something out of the Simpsons.
    Crazy!!!!!!!!!!!


  • #1110
    ishmael whale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭ishmael whale


    While I always enjoy those ‘decentralisation is vanishing up its ass’ stories, I still think the question is more about why bother trying to do it at all. Its an utterly pointless programme, that does nothing to promote meaningful regional development.

    If, on the other hand, they spent a few bob moving the Garda Training College from Templemore to Waterford City and integrated it with WIT, it could give a genuine boost to both institutions, to the city and to the South East region.

    Let me make it clear that I’m not personally of the opinion that upgrading WIT to University status is the next priority in the third level sector. But at least investing money in such an upgrade would make a meaningful contribution to regional development. Moving the Ordnance Survey to Dungarvan just won’t.

    I take it the comment by Cowan in the first story to the effect that some of the sites will now be leased, where the original intention was to buy, indicates that they want to leave the door open to pulling back from some locations after the election - i.e. have lots of hustle and bustle in a field for the next 12 months to give the impression an office is coming, with no long term commitment.
    http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1568749&issue_id=13723
    Decentralisation 'to go ahead' despite €50m cut
    THE Government insisted last night that its decentralisation plans have not been scaled back, despite cutting €50m from the project's budget this year.
    The revised estimates of spending, published by Finance Minister Brian Cowen yesterday, showed the decentralisation budget is now €105m - down from an original Budget allocation of €155m. …….

    Yesterday a spokesman for Mr Cowen said the extra €50m would be added to the decentralisation programme allocation in future years. The review follows an examination of progress on acquiring and developing property this year.

    The change in this year's Budget would not affect the rollout of the programme, he added. "Some contracts are not going to close until 2007. There are a number of sites that are now going to be leased," he said.

    But Fine Gael claimed the decentralisation programme was in total disarray as it was never properly planned. In 2005, capital expenditure on decentralisation was 70pc off target. In 2006, barely two months since the Budget, the programme was already 33pc off target, FG finance spokesman Richard Bruton said.
    http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1568703&issue_id=13723
    Nine out of 10 civil servants choose to stay in capital

    ALMOST nine in 10 Department of Education staff don't want to move to decentralised offices in Athlone and Mullingar. Latest figures show that fewer than 47 of the 381 employees in Dublin are willing to relocate with their job. In some sections, including the 22-strong schools' inspectorate division, not one member of staff has applied for a transfer.

    In a further blow to decentralisation plans, the purchase of a site in Portarlington, earmarked for four state agencies, including two in the education area, has fallen through at an advanced stage. Education Minister Mary Hanafin has provided a breakdown of her staff's decentralisation intentions in a written parliamentary answer to Fine Gael finance spokesperson Richard Bruton.

    Mr Bruton is concerned at the gaps in expertise that will emerge if large numbers of experienced staff don't move with their post and warned of a "loss of institutional memory". He said the Government's decentralisation scheme, as originally intended, was "unravelling".

    Under the scheme, 300 Department of Education staff are due to move to Mullingar and 81 to Athlone. But fewer than 35 staff have signed up for Mullingar. Only 12 of those whose jobs are going to Athlone have agreed to move.

    The decentralisation to Athlone is scheduled for the last quarter of 2008, with the move to Mullingar following that. Meanwhile, the Office of Public Works is seeking an alternative site in Portarlington for four State agencies, including the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment and the National Educational Welfare Board.

    Just one in 50 of Enterprise Ireland's staff has volunteered to 'decentralise' to Shannon and FAS has only persuaded 11 of its employees to move to Birr, Co Offaly, where it plans to employ 383 within three years. So far 11 of the 400 Dublin-based FAS staff, nine people from other state agencies and 58 in the wider public service had indicated they would transfer to Birr.
    © Irish Independent
    http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/ & http://www.unison.ie/
    http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=70746&pt=n
    THURSDAY 23/02/2006 08:09:03
    Less than half of DCI staff willing to move under decentralisation

    The Minister for Foreign Affairs has admitted less than half of the staff at Development Cooperation Ireland are willing to move to Limerick as part of the Government's decentralisation programme. Just 41 people have expressed an interest in the move which is scheduled to be completed early next year. According to the DCI website there are 123 Dublin based positions which will be relocated in around twelve months time.

    However speaking in the Dail Dermot Ahern said just 26 positions at the new offices are to be filled by existing staff who`ve expressed an interest in moving to Limerick. A further 15 people, who are based abroad have also expressed their interest in moving to Limerick and the Minister says these officers will be assigned on a phased basis. He says the process to recruit staff for the remaining positions will now be accellerated and that the aim is to have most of them filled by the second half of this year.


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  • #1111
    SeanW
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,578 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Now, Decentralisation has shown to be a disaster for Longford.

    More Civil Servants want to leave Longford than come from Dublin.

    Oh dear :mad: WTF is going on here, Longford is a lovely place to live with good schools, not much traffic, decent rail links, crime well under control, plenty of one-off houses for people who want that sort of thing ... and yet decentralisation for Longford seems to be doing more harm than good ...

    It's settled, FF\PD has just lost my vote.

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