Taking up boxing

Millionaire · 02-06-2005 12:06PM

well then taking the point of walshb, it would be nice if the full time athlete boxing guys di dtheir own thing. and maybe retired boxers, who want to train themselves, could set up boxing training for people who just want to train, get it, learn boxing to complement their martial arts, or even do some bouts butagainst people on their own level.

call it white collar boxing or whatever. I di dsome googling this yesterday, and it appears some guys who started in their 20s or 30s , still trained very hard and did some fights against other late starters.

Or why does some boxer not start to do private lessons. (now there is a business idea for free!)

I think there should be an option for everyone!

walshb · 02-06-2005 12:16PM

Millionaire wrote:

well then taking the point of walshb, it would be nice if the full time athlete boxing guys di dtheir own thing. and maybe retired boxers, who want to train themselves, could set up boxing training for people who just want to train, get it, learn boxing to complement their martial arts, or even do some bouts butagainst people on their own level.

call it white collar boxing or whatever. I di dsome googling this yesterday, and it appears some guys who started in their 20s or 30s , still trained very hard and did some fights against other late starters.

Or why does some boxer not start to do private lessons. (now there is a business idea for free!)

I think there should be an option for everyone!

Millionaire, I could see no harm in that....quiet a good idea actually. One set of clubs obviously for those competing and those alone, and anyone who wants could set up a club or boxing gym just for the purpose of hard training and keeping fit. I don't think however that funding would be made available as is the case to affiliated clubs. It wouldn't be registered either. S really it would be a Gym....boxing orientated

paul moran · 02-06-2005 01:14PM

Lads, I have to agree totally with WalshB (You wouldn't be Billy Walsh would ye?)

Imagine a soccer club with all the age-groups and divisions training together everynight, with 2 perhaps 3 coaches to get them all ready for there next set of matches. The quality of each of the teams would be rubbish, as the coaches would be spread too thin.

Well this is pretty much the case in most boxing clubs. You have different levels all training together using the equipment, hall space and coaches to improve their game. Schoolboy divisions, County league figthers, novices, intermediate (provincial and national), Seniors (provincial and national), International fighters preparing for European and world championships and of course the Olympic fighters.

Pretty much everybody will do their cardio, floorwork etc together and then split into groups of shadowboxing, bag work, pad work and sparring, the coaches have to prioritise for those preparing for the next fight. Unlike Martial Art competitions, MMA fighter, Muay Thai fighters, etc. they are preparing for fights all year round as an average boxers would fight perhaps 3 times more per year than all of those mentioned above, it's just the manner of the sport.

In regards to some retired boxer setting up a club, I heard Steve Collins did actually set-up a professional gym a few years ago that didn't work out. Of course I didn't hear about it until after it closed so perhaps it was badly managed or what I heard was BS! But this would have been ideal for those looking to get fit and learn the sweet science for the sake of it and not for the fights but such is life.

There is always a way to learn to box as long as you give something back to the club your training in! If your not going to fight, offer to drive the kids to the odd fight or way-ins. Clean-up the gym, buy the odd bag and set of gloves for the club. Remember, as someone said earlier, boxing gyms charge feck-all compared to other combat sports club as they are purely amateur.

Paul Moran

walshb · 02-06-2005 01:43PM

No Paul, I'm not Billy Walsh. I presume you mean the great Wexford boxer who won about 8 Senior titles, and represented Ireland in Seoul 88. What a fighter. I've seen him box many times. He was as far as I know the last Irishman to beat Carruth as an amateur. I was at the fight in the Stadium.
e was a great body and head combo puncher and had the KO punch, which very very very few Irish amateurs possessed. Anyway I also agree with you. I have no problems with guys in the gym who maybe do not compete, as long as they are contributing to the boxers who do compete. You came up with some grea examples of how they could

Just to add there also was a great Billy Walsh who boxed out of the St Colmans club in Cork thru he earl 90's. Yo may have meant him....

mark.leonard · 02-06-2005 02:29PM

Great post Paul.

I think we are getting to a stage where we can agree a little bit at least.

Here is my understanding of the discussion so far, please jump in and correct me if I am in error -

========================================================================================
The existing boxing structure can't support casual boxers and still prepare people adequately for matches.

Both Paul and WalshB, being both experienced boxers, believe that you can't adjust the infrastructure of boxing clubs or the coaching methodology to allow for a greater participation rate, due to either the number of competitive matches fighters have in the year or because boxing is set in its ways and the effort required to change it would outweigh any gain.

There would be some merit to white-collar boxing clubs, but they wouldn't fall into the same affiliation of existing boxing clubs and athletes there wouldn't have access to the same events etc.

Anyone can take up boxing in an official boxing club if they are prepared to give something back to the club, be it the most obvious way of fighting for the club or in other less obvious ways as Paul mentioned above.
========================================================================================

It sounds to me like boxing could make a pretty good income for a seasoned boxer willing to take it to the masses in a commercialised (probably watered down) version. You combine your club's launch with a Network 2 screening of one of the Rocky movies and your gold!

walshb · 02-06-2005 02:48PM

mark.leonard wrote:

Great post Paul.

The existing boxing structure can't support casual boxers and still prepare people adequately for matches.

Mark, with all due respect....in a sport so demanding and tough and competitive, there is no such thing as a Casual boxer. It just does not happen. It's not like a casual soccer player, who can play once maybe twice a week for the local team, go have few beers after the match and a bit of craic. One organisation, one set of rules and standard tournaments and competitions. So you cannot be Casual...it's not possible. If however you mean Casual in the sense of a non-competer, then this also doesn't work. I suppose really this is what we're discussing. As for increasing the participation, that's great but from my experience in Boxing, we used to have loads and loads of people joining overcrowded to be honest and as soon as mos of them tasted a sparring sesion, that was it. Some left before they weere due to fight. So there has never been a shortage of people taking the sport up, it's just that a lot leave when they find out what is really expected of them

mark.leonard · 02-06-2005 02:58PM

*Sigh*, just when I thought we were making progress...

walshb wrote:

If however you mean Casual in the sense of a non-competer

Yes this is what I meant.

walshb wrote:

Boxing, we used to have loads and loads of people joining overcrowded to be honest

I would be surprised to learn that is the case, but I will take you at your word.

walshb wrote:

a lot leave when they find out what is really expected of them

I was suggesting that you change what was required and keep your set of future sparring partners for longer, you disagreed and we moved on.
I don't think what you said above falls outside my summary though, same argument really!

pma-ire · 02-06-2005 05:14PM

of course there should be room for these non-comp boxing gyms!!

look at all the MA'ists that would flock to it!

one thing i did pick up is that this would not get funding?? funding from the government?? no it won't! but professional fees could be charged and could still maybe be a buffer gym for a full time fighting gym??

it's not that hard to see this would be a good idea :eek:

Millionaire · 02-06-2005 06:50PM

with the white collar model. That could be in an established fitness gym or else where. no it would be nothing to do with the funding or assocs for full on competing boxers. so that would mean having to pay proper (and maybe expensive fees) to the person who is running it.

remember people with a few quid do not mind paying a bit extra for a service or a quality of service.

Alot of guys would want hard physical training, but not loosing a tooth or a flat nose. so sparring could be a little more controled, maybe hard to body and semi contact to the head. and if some guy in this 20s or 30s wanted a bout , someone of similar situation could be found.

Yeah I read in Hearld a few years back Steve Collins was setitng up something. I was sort of keeping an ear to the ground for it mysel but heard nothing after, so maybe it was just something that did not happen.

Armen Tanzarian · 02-06-2005 11:21PM

Millionaire wrote:

Just because you do not wish to compete does not make you a poseur or a time waster.

It is a pity that the boxing scene is appears to be a closed shop if you do not want to compete. I am 33 did kickboxing for years, competed, and now have no interest in competition, but I still train as hard as the next man, and will continue to do so until I am 80 years old!

I know lots of people in kickboxing and some in Thai who do not compete and they train like mad men, and spar like mad men too.

If someone was in boxing, and they are willing to train hard and get in and spar, well should that not be enough.?

Maybe someone like Steve Collins or some other top Irish champ should set up a place for people who want to train hard. call it white collar boxing or what ever. so what as long as people who want to train and not compete can have it available.

I just have taken up Thai boxing in Dublin a few months back and I am enjoying ever minute of it. (Ok I am not a total beginner but I have alot of changes to make);

Maybe if you want to train for fitness, take up kickboxing or thai and train 110%. you might get fitter with this, as your using your legs too and more balance.! and you will be more welcome too!

I am just back from a Muay Thai camp in thailand where I was training alongside current Lumpini Thai champsions and also with European Cage and thai fighters. and I was given the exact same training and I trained just as hard as everyone else. (ok the thai's ran rings about me). I was able to keep pace with the cage and european thai fighters though.

What amazed me about thailand, there was none of this "hard man" if your not a champ your useless, type attitude so common in some martial arts and kickboxing clubs. The top Thai champs while training very hard , were playful and fun in attitude about training. All smiles, no one was walking about with a big sour face on them, like they had a bad cause of hemmeroids!

I was thinking of taking up Muay Thai in dublin, Where do you train? also whats it like for beginners?

Cheers

walshb · 03-06-2005 07:38AM

Millionaire, you can call these gyms anything you like, but ultimately they are not boxing gyms because they will not be affiliated to the IABA, which is our national body plain and simple. Mark, like I've said before....no room for negotiation..it is that simple, and believe me, there was and as far as I know is never a shortage of willing participants in the boxing gyms. Most will train for a few weeks, have a spar, maybe take a few digs and you'll never see them again. It's the toughest individual sport on the planet, you don't have your team mates to help you when it starts gettin' rough. That is why very very few make the grade.

mark.leonard · 03-06-2005 10:39AM

It's the toughest individual sport on the planet

ermm okay, though I am pretty sure I would have to disagree! You obviously have a lot of love for boxing and that is great to see, but I am not sure you have tried other combat athletics, not to mention things like running a marathon in a desert and other wacky stuff people get up to.

Tough sport? Undoubtedly. Toughest? Debatable

Roper · 03-06-2005 10:59AM

Walsh might well be going on a survey by an american university that took into account all the experiences of the athlete- the physical and mental preperation required- everything. And boxing came out on top. Above say, marathon running due to the physicality of it and above Muay Thai because of the length of the contest.

Can't find the link now, sorry, but I remember broadly agreeing with it.

As for white collar boxing..... :mad: ........ bunch of stockbrokers playing tough guy. Bad for the sport, especially since there's no ancillary benefit for the sport of boxing as a whole. And since it gets more free view TV coverage than most amatuer boxing it's bad for public perception too.

mark.leonard · 03-06-2005 11:32AM

Walsh might well be going on a survey by an american university that took into account all the experiences of the athlete- the physical and mental preperation required- everything. And boxing came out on top. Above say, marathon running due to the physicality of it and above Muay Thai because of the length of the contest.

Fiar enough, maybe marathon running was a bad exmaple. Was MMA taken into account in this survey?

Roper · 03-06-2005 11:35AM

MMA isn't a sport, it's a brutal form of human cock fighting......

oops, should probably add a smiley there..

No it wasn't. Martial arts was, but that could mean anything from Olympic TKD to Ninja Survival tactics.

walshb · 03-06-2005 11:36AM

A survey and years of experience in the amateur ranks, that's tough but nowhere near as tough as the Pro ranks. Marathon runners are tough no doubt, but they run, one foot in front of the other, sure it's demanding and extremely fit, but boxing is a combat sport...like Muay thai. There is a huge difference in running 26 miles over 2.5 hrs and boxing 12-15 rds, taking punishement to head and body non stop. I know what I'd rather be doing. That is why a boxer needs 3-4 months recupperation after a fight. It really takes so much out of them. One other thing is that marathon runners can pace themselves, boxers have to be able to go non stop 100% of the time if required. Your opponent dictates this. It is the ultimate test of a man...Muay thai I would rate tough if not tougher than boxing due to the added hits from legs, elbows etc etc. It is so tough that I think the max amount of rds is approx 6. Anything more might be physically impossible.

03-06-2005 12:02PM

walshb,

Ever seen an MMA fight in ring or cage. Might give you a bit of perspective as to where a lot of us are coming from.

Colum

walshb · 03-06-2005 01:15PM

columok wrote:

walshb,

Ever seen an MMA fight in ring or cage. Might give you a bit of perspective as to where a lot of us are coming from.

Colum

Buddy I've seen everything from Muay thai to Judo, to wrestling to UFC to street fights to bar brawls. The whole lot and Nothing on this earth is tougher than two finely tuned athletes fighting 12rds of pro boxing at the level they do. It's that simple. It is so highly skilled, competitive, physically demanding and the courage alone needed says it all. I'll try post that link that Roper was talking about. Basically it's a study compiled by experts in all sports and it ranks boxing overall as the toughest of all sports. Some of the categories range from durability to flexibility to stamina to coordination to strenght etc

walshb · 03-06-2005 01:16PM

Guys here's the link...it's a great insight...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/sportSkills

Clive · 03-06-2005 01:39PM

LMAO @ ESPN's "science".

I never would have guessed that baseball/softball is tougher than rugby

By anyone's standards, boxing is a tough sport, but since there's no objective quantification of "toughness" in a sport, anything else is just opinion.

Colm_OReilly · 03-06-2005 02:03PM

My beef with the ESPN survey is the misunderstanding of the word "skill".

Boxing is tough, wrestling is tough, MMA is tough, any individual combat sport is tough. However some require more explosive movement, some more endurance, but to claim one is tougher than the other is to degrade the other sport. For some people, boxing comes easy, and for others, wrestling.

Peace and Love Y'All,
Colm

padraigcarroll · 03-06-2005 09:41PM

I've done boxing, muay thai, kenpo karate, mma, running, swimming, basketball, tiddley winks....
and tiddley winks is the hardest sport of all.
pussy's cant handle tiddley winks
they just cant

Feel the burn
Overshift the extreme
max the envelope and so on

walshb · 08-06-2005 03:08PM

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Boxing is tough, wrestling is tough, MMA is tough, any individual combat sport is tough. However some require more explosive movement, some more endurance, but to claim one is tougher than the other is to degrade the other sport. For some people, boxing comes easy, and for others, wrestling.

Peace and Love Y'All,
Colm

This study was carried out by experts from all fields of sport and this is the conclusion they came to from intense study into it. It just happens to be the same view I share. I do believe you can say one sport is tougher than the other without appearing to degrade the 'lesser'' sport.

mark.leonard · 08-06-2005 03:22PM

walshb wrote:

This study was carried out by experts from all fields of sport and this is the conclusion they came to from intense study into it. It just happens to be the same view I share.

I don't know, that seems a bit naieve considering that ESPN have such a vested interest in some sports over others.

walshb · 08-06-2005 04:12PM

What other sports exactly??....I suppose it's a matter of opinion really. But lets be honest, there are maybe 5 sports I would consider to be ridiculously tough....Boxing, Long distance running, Muay Thai, Pro Rugby, and possibly Cycling.....I used to think Judo and Wrestking, but from watching it lately, they do more messing and posing than actual hard work

Roper · 08-06-2005 05:16PM

Hard work? Olympic judoka and wrestlers might not entertain as much as you might like but to say they pose is ridiculous. Olympic level judo is cagey, one mistake can cost you a placing. Wrestling the same, that said I thought the Wrestling at last years games was excellent.

Millionaire · 08-06-2005 06:16PM

Geoff Thompson the well know self defende no BS guy ex bouncer and excellent martial artist, is a black belt in Judo under Neil Adams form Uk Olympic champ.

I read an interview with Geoff where he said that training with Neil Adams was the most humbling experience he ever had. and that doing his Judo 1st Dan under the same was extremely tough, and at one stage he wanted to quit only his wife gave him a bollockin and to him to get back to it!!

And Geoff would be no Whimp lol ...after all I think he is 1/2 Irish and of Mayo Stock..Mayo??? nuff said! :-)

pma-ire · 08-06-2005 06:41PM

Millionaire wrote:

and of Mayo Stock..Mayo??? nuff said! :-)

I love that stuff in a chicken sandwich :P

Sorry! Sorry! It just had to be said

mark.leonard · 09-06-2005 11:21AM

I was thinking Pro Rules MMA as a pretty tough sport. 5-10 minute rounds are no joke!

Millionaire · 09-06-2005 11:53AM

Damn right I agree with Mark.

I think MMA at most levels got to be toughest out there. getting hit with all weapons, then clinched, grappled, locked, choked!

the long rounds. Man to do whay you lads are doing , training for MMA, I am only guess it must be a full time job to train for it. in all the ranges, clinches, ground, etc. then not to mention endurance, road work, conditioning, probably pumping iron too!

I'd say if your doing a day job, and traiing for MMA fights, you'd have very little free time left over for anything else???

More power to you all MMA dudes. It takes true dedication.

me while I love hard and rough training and very dedicated, like to have ample time for wine, women and song!!! ; - )

Taking up boxing

Comments