Decentralisation

NewDubliner · 05-05-2005 08:13AM

uncivilservant wrote:

There are 199 OSI posts earmarked for Dungarvan. Per the latest available figures

I think that now would be a good time for the public service unions to express sympathy with the workers in Dungarvan and to tell the minister that making Dublin workers redundant is not the way to address the problem.

NewDubliner · 05-05-2005 10:50PM

This just posted by the PSEU in its latest report:http://www.pseu.ie/docs/Decent30.doc.

It shows a little backbone, but the statement 'It was agreed to discuss this matter further.' should fill Dublin-based PSEU members with foreboding.

In response to a request for a statement of view regarding the paper on the decentralisation of ICT posts circulated at the last meeting, (enclosed again with this report for ease of reference), the PSEU Representative stated that there were no circumstances in which the Union could co-operate with open recruitment into ICT posts in situations where there were ICT staff surplus to requirements as a result of decentralisation and the Union would not feel bound in any way by the provisions of ‘Sustaining Progress’ on this matter as they related to skills shortages while what is in question in this case is not a shortage of skills but the forcible re-location of posts.

Furthermore, it was stated that the scale of use of contractors was unacceptable and could not be acceptable if there were surplus ICT staff. All Unions stated that the potential for lost earnings among ICT staff displaced due to decentralisation was very high and the protection of these extra earnings would have to be addressed satisfactorily.

It was agreed to discuss this matter further.

uncivilservant · 05-05-2005 11:06PM

NewDubliner wrote:

This just posted by the PSEU in its latest report:http://www.pseu.ie/docs/Decent30.doc.

From the same doc:

The IMPACT Representatives stated that Union’s wish to reach an agreement but noted that the document did not deal with their grades, a fact which they stated to be unsatisfactory as it reflected what was, in their view, a general neglect of the issues affecting specialist grades.

Perhaps it actually reflects is a tacit admission by "the official side" that the IMPACT grades aren't going anywhere anytime soon?

I have to say the whole process is starting to take on the appearance of a rather unseemly grab for promotions. Perhaps "the staff side" need to realise that promotions are not a panacea for every problem?

ishmael whale · 06-05-2005 11:10AM

Sorry, I’ve forgotten. Why is the decentralisation programme still on the table, and what makes it so much more important that just collecting tax efficiently?

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2005/0506/3130473142HM3REVENUE.html
Decentralisation problems listed in Revenue plan
Chris Dooley, Industry and Employment Correspondent

Major problems arising from the Government's decentralisation programme, including high costs and a potentially damaging loss of expertise, have been outlined by the Revenue Commissioners. ..... In an outline implementation plan, seen by The Irish Times, Revenue warns that relocating its IT section to Kildare could be "extremely expensive" and poses risks to its business.It also points out that only 34 staff with the necessary IT qualifications have applied to move to Kildare, leaving a "minimum shortfall" of 345.

…. It is "highly unlikely", however, that sufficient staff with the aptitudes needed would be found from within the Civil Service, while direct recruitment would add to the number of civil servants. The third option, replacing civil servants with consultants, would be extremely expensive. The plan also says it would be "unrealistic" to expect existing staff to be enthusiastic about the success of the project. "As yet they have no certainty about their own future, and are being compelled to switch from their chosen career in which the majority have striven - at considerable personal effort - to acquire third-level qualifications and highly-specialised skills…..

"The significant proportion [91 per cent] of staff to be replaced will generate a significant risk of a loss of key corporate knowledge and irrecoverable systems failure unless great care is taken in the transfer process." ... While the Government had initially planned to complete the decentralisation by the end of 2006, Revenue does not envisage beginning the IT move to Kildare, with a first-phase transfer of 103 posts, until January 2009.

NewDubliner · 06-05-2005 10:56PM

ishmael whale wrote:

Sorry, I’ve forgotten. Why is the decentralisation programme still on the table, and what makes it so much more important that just collecting tax efficiently?

Don't be silly! It's about politics. It's about bringing much-needed work to an area with no unemployment. It's about saving money by spending lots more money. It's about relieving Dublin traffic congestion by making cyclists & bus commuters drive to Kildare. It's about improving civil service efficiency by getting rid of skilled, experienced people. And....... it's about politics.

uncivilservant · 08-05-2005 08:19PM

From the Irish Times report on the Association of Higher Civil and Public Servants conference this weekend:

The decentralisation programme was sharply criticised at the conference by keynote speaker Frank McDonald, environment editor of The Irish Times.

The original estimated cost of the programme, at "over €200 million", had been revised upwards to more than €900 million, he said. This was more than "the extravagant cost" of Dublin's two Luas lines, more than the cost of "God knows how many hospital beds" and more than the cost of "the wretched M3 motorway".

"It is a complete waste of money and a misapplication of resources on a monumental scale," he said. McDonald claimed clientelism was behind the choice of location of decentralised offices made by Ministers. The aim was "to bring joy to the business community of every town - the publicans, shopkeepers, auctioneers, estate agents, car dealers and fellows with land to sell at a premium price for a new Government office block".

"Meanwhile, major Dublin buildings in danger of being divested include the Custom House and the OPW's suite of Georgian houses on St Stephen's Green."

And echoed in Garret Fitzgerald's column:

This is not to make a case against the principle of decentralisation of Civil Service administrative work, which makes good sense.

However, that concept has been turned into a bad and very expensive joke by decentralising civil servants to no less than 53 different locations, three-quarters of which are not centres that the Government had selected for development, and also by deciding to move nine Ministers and their offices away from the centre of government.

Not much serious thought has been given over how to make our political system more democratically responsive to our real social and environmental needs, rather than to interest group pressures.

NewDubliner · 11-05-2005 08:39AM

From "The Examiner", May 11, 2005:

Situation here is similar to that proposed for the ICT staff.

11/05/05

Civil servants to get €50m for ‘nothing’
By Mary Dundon, Political Reporter
THE State will end up paying €50 million a year to professional civil servants for doing nothing unless Junior Finance Minister Tom Parlon can find them meaningful work in Dublin, the IMPACT trade union warned yesterday.

The 850 specialist grade civil servants - mainly engineers, architects, professional valuers and Third World community development experts - do not want to move out of Dublin under Mr Parlon’s decentralisation plan. Most of these work with the Department of the Environment, which is being decentralised to Wexford, and the Department of Foreign Affairs section, which is being moved to Limerick.

Both Mr Parlon and the Taoiseach gave a commitment to civil servants who do not want to move outside Dublin that “meaningful jobs” would be found for those who wish to stay, said IMPACT national secretary Peter Nolan.

“But the problem is that these specialist professional grades cannot be easily transferred to other departments in Dublin like general civil servants because you cannot turn an engineer into an architect,” he said.

Mr Parlon will face an angry group of 850 professional servants at the IMPACT Health and Civil Service Biennial conference in Kilkenny, who want to know what jobs the Government has for them.

“They are furious at the notion they might be sitting in an office in Dublin doing nothing because the minister has not thought this plan through. As an employer, the Government has a duty of care to ensure that the professionals can maintain their skills,” said Mr Nolan.

IMPACT brought this problem to the attention of Philip Flynn, who compiled the report on decentralisation 18 months ago. “Since then there has been a wall of silence from Minister Parlon even after IMPACT told a Dáil committee that the cost of leaving these professional civil servants idle for a year would be €50m,” Mr Nolan said.

Mr Parlon will be told that 85% of IMPACT’s Health and Civil Service grades do not want to move outside Dublin and the debate will also include a motion calling for industrial action. Mr Parlon’s spokes-man could not be reached for comment last night.

ishmael whale · 11-05-2005 11:31AM

From "The Examiner", May 11, 2005:
THE State will end up paying €50 million a year to professional civil servants for doing nothing unless Junior Finance Minister Tom Parlon can find them meaningful work in Dublin, the IMPACT trade union warned yesterday.

And that €50 million would go a long way to meeting the costs of the shelved Leaving Cert reforms, making it possible that instead of calling it a ‘Rolls Royce’ option, the Minister might actually get the necessary resources to simply start implementing the necessary changes.

Prioritising decentralisation over all the other things that need to be done is really beyond reason.

http://www.examiner.ie/pport/web/ireland/Full_Story/did-sgQcEwxxy-kk6sg0aewFBADppk.asp

“Leaving Cert reforms may face axe over costs
By Niall Murray, Education Correspondent
PLANS for major reform of the Leaving Certificate may be shelved as expert advice to Education Minister Mary Hanafin suggests the extra teachers alone would cost €100 million a year.

Expert advice, seen by the Irish Examiner, and sent to the minister in recent weeks, spells out the true cost of introducing a scheme of continuous assessment over a three-year senior cycle.

The experts suggest:

* The extra preparation work would need up to 1,900 more teachers.

* 20% more assessment work would be required, which could add €10m to the annual running costs of the State Examinations Commission.

* A possible one-off cost of €50m to provide teachers with laptop computers.

Ms Hanafin has already described the scheme of continuous assessment over a three-year senior cycle, proposed by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment (NCCA), as the “Rolls-Royce option………….”

NewDubliner · 11-05-2005 09:27PM

On the RTE TV news tonight, it's reported that Tom Parlon addressed the Impact AGM and told them that their jobs were moving, 'decentralisation' was not being scaled back and anyone with technical skills who didn't move would 'have difficulties'.

There's a vote tomorrow.

pete · 11-05-2005 10:03PM

NewDubliner wrote:

There's a vote tomorrow.

On what?

edit: On industrial action "if their concerns aren't addressed."

pete · 11-05-2005 10:07PM

Link to the RTE report http://dynamic.rte.ie/av/2044074.smil

pete · 11-05-2005 10:10PM

NewDubliner wrote:

On the RTE TV news tonight, it's reported that Tom Parlon addressed the Impact AGM and told them that their jobs were moving, 'decentralisation' was not being scaled back and anyone with technical skills who didn't move would 'have difficulties'.

In fairness to the former leader of the paramilitary wing of the PD's it wasn't so much a threat as a statement of the bleedin obvious.

I think they all kinda knew that already, Tom.... now, how about some answers?

NewDubliner · 11-05-2005 10:26PM

pete wrote:

Link to the RTE report http://dynamic.rte.ie/av/2044074.smil

Just watched it again.

Interesting that the report describes him as "The Minister Responsible for Decentralisation". Sounds like FF is putting him out on a limb.

Also of interest was how his thinking that losing so many expensively trained & recruited experts was more a problem for the staff themselves than him......he seemed either ignorant or insouciant of the consequences & costs.

The game goes on.

pete · 11-05-2005 10:35PM

NewDubliner wrote:

Just watched it again.

Interesting that the report describes him as "The Minister Responsible for Decentralisation". Sounds like FF is putting him out on a limb.

Aye, if i were him i'd be pretty much insisting on the inclusion of the words "the implementation of McCreevy's" in the middle of that sentence.

Also of interest was how his thinking that losing so many expensively trained & recruited experts was more a problem for the staff themselves than him......he seemed either ignorant or insouciant of the consequences & costs.

Sure it's only taxpayers money - easy come, easy go after all. And if the taxpayers themselves don't seem to give a monkey's, then why should we?

ishmael whale · 12-05-2005 11:56AM

I would have said Bruton’s statement that half those applying are already located outside the capital is simply a fact, and not merely a suggestion. Half the time the decentralisation programme amounts to moving people from Ballina to Claremorris. And we all know how vital that is.

http://www.examiner.ie/pport/web/Full_Story/did-sgA0FNLYFtc1Esg7OWirIStPSk.asp

12/05/05
Decentralisation plan fiasco: only 620 make move
By Juno McEnroe, Neans McSweeney, and Harry McGee
ONLY 620 of the 10,300 civil servants due to be decentralised have been assigned to locations outside Dublin, 18 months after the scheme was announced, it emerged yesterday. While some 9,000 civil servants have applied to be relocated, the fact that only 620, or 6%, have been assigned to their locations was pounced on by the opposition, which claimed the entire programme was heading for failure.

The disclosure was contained in figures obtained by the Oireachtas Committee on Finance & Public Services from the Decentralisation Implementation Group (DIG). Fine Gael deputy leader Richard Bruton yesterday lambasted Finance Minister Brian Cowen for what he said was the painfully slow progress of the scheme.

He said at the halfway stage of the programme the figures presented damning evidence of how ill-thought out the pet project of former Finance Minister Charlie McCreevy had been.

Mr Bruton also pointed to findings which showed that in 21 of the 47 locations, not a single person has been assigned.

He also suggested that half of those applying for new posts were already working in decentralised locations outside the capital.

But Finance last night strongly countered, saying that the 620 figure referred only to “early mover” locations - those identified by the DIG last November as the first locations to be decentralised.

A department spokesman said the figure was not indicative of the overall applications, which stood at over 9,000 people. He said 20 locations from a total of 53 were identified last November as early movers. The 620 staff who have been assigned are already undergoing training for relocation.

“It was never going to be a big bang. It is a rolling process and is proceeding according to plan,” he said.

The latest figures came as OPW Minister Tom Parlon addressed delegates from IMPACT, Ireland’s largest public sector union, and moved to assuage their concerns, at a Kilkenny conference last night.

IMPACT is one of several unions which have threatened possible industrial action over the decentralisation programme.

Mr Parlon insisted the programme is on schedule.

eigrod · 12-05-2005 12:42PM

NewDubliner wrote:

......he seemed either ignorant or insouciant of the consequences & costs.

the former methinks

pete · 12-05-2005 02:16PM

Cha-Ching! From today's Irish Times:

Teagasc employees whose head office was relocated from Dublin to Carlow last year are to receive payments of up to €15,000 each for commuting.

The Agriculture and Food Development Authority workers have been awarded a one-off sum based on €142 per mile by the Labour Court.

The award is the highest on record for workers for relocation of work premises and will set a precedent for other workers, despite the fact the decision to decentralise Teagasc was taken prior to the McCreevy decision to decentralise Government departments.

The payment will be made to the workers over three years and has been sanctioned by the Departments of Agriculture and Food and Finance.

Teagasc put a rationalisation programme into force to cope with rising losses in 2002, a year before the McCreevy announcement on decentralisation in December 2003.

The 100 Teagasc staff at the organisation's Sandymount Avenue premises in Dublin were told they would have to move to Oak Park in Carlow where the new headquarters is now located.

Maybe if 10,500 civil servants had approached decentralisation like it was some kind of gravy train the meeja would have had something to say about it? I guess we'll never know...

Dinarius · 12-05-2005 04:57PM

Surely The Idiot Parlon wants out and is banking on industrial action by Impact to allow him to do just that?

If the government walks away, they will be fried in the imminent general election.

On the other hand, if Parlon can say that the unions wouldn't cooperate, so the deal is off, the many disappointed towns might take a more generous view of the resulting mess.

The real crime, in my view, is the selling off of so many state buildings in Dublin. Never again to be in our hands. Very sad.

D.

NewDubliner · 13-05-2005 07:55AM

Specialists in Civil Service jobs angry over plan - Irish Times

....."Do you get a painter to put in your windows? Do you get a plumber to do your carpentry work? This is what it's going to amount to - we'll be general jobbers......

http://www.uncivilservant.com/article.php?id=536

ishmael whale · 13-05-2005 10:25AM

This is the bit that got me, a concrete example of how we’re spending money to provide a worse service.

….http://www.uncivilservant.com/article.php?id=536
… Delegates also passed a motion requesting the Government to rethink the proposed relocation of the Probation and Welfare Service to Navan, Co Meath, given that the service is "already decentralised".

Oliver Fallon of the probation and welfare officers branch told the conference that the service had 12 offices countrywide and eight district offices in Dublin. The Government was proposing to move 100 Dublin-based welfare officers to Navan. Probation and welfare officers, he said, worked effectively in tackling the causes of offending behaviour.

"To move us to Navan means we are moved away from the clients that we serve, the people that we are working with." Much of their work, he said, was carried out among deprived and marginalised communities in Dublin.
"I am sure that we'll make a lot of money in travelling expenses going back and forth between Dublin and Navan, but it is not going to make us work more effectively."

"Unfortunately, because a Minister has decided we are to be decentralised, everybody we are working with is going to suffer."

Mr Fallon said it had been very difficult to get eight district offices established in Dublin in the first place. The whole process had taken "time, effort and money" because of the costs involved and the need to consult with local communities and explain what the service was about. As a consequence of the decentralisation programme, the Government had "suddenly decided" that these local offices were to be closed…….

The_Conductor · 20-05-2005 04:15PM

Colleagues,
The Union's web page on Decentralisation <http://www.pseu.ie/html/Decent.html> now contains a link to the Union
Circular to Branches Dated 20 May 2005 <http://www.pseu.ie/docs/Decent31.doc>
Regards
Billy
Billy Hannigan
Assistant General Secretary
Public Service Executive Union
30 Merrion Square
Dublin 2
01 6767271

NewDubliner · 21-05-2005 08:35AM

Indo reproduces Government statement without question:

Cavan site chosen to house civil servants

THE Office of Public Works has secured a 10-acre site in Cavan to be used for the decentralisation of the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources.

The procurement of the site was welcomed by Junior Agriculture Minister Brendan Smith, who said 400 civil servants would be relocated to the region. He expects the project to be completed within three years.

"Many civil servants want out of Dublin and I believe the uptake will increase when this project really gets underway," he said.

"Over 200 staff from the Department of Agriculture relocated to Cavan in recent years to a new branch of the department there."

Patrick Tierney

ishmael whale · 23-05-2005 10:44AM

Quick, get a story out there that looks like decentralisation doesn’t cost a bomb. Get a site off the IDA, compare the cost of it to what some local gombeen was looking for and no-one will notice that building the office on it will cost €80 million.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1401633&issue_id=12515

“THE OPW is to buy a site from the IDA for the new Department of Agriculture building at less than a quarter of the cost of a commercial site.
The deal will see the IDA sell a nine-acre site in Portlaoise, Co Laois, to the OPW for €2.3m. A commercial site examined by officials was offered at €10m…..

Mr Parlon said yesterday he hoped once the paperwork is signed he could move ahead with the building, expected to cost around €80m, as soon as possible.”

Victor · 23-05-2005 07:38PM

It struck that decentralisation has implications for vehicle registrations with department / agency vehicles now being registered in the county where the department / agency headquarters are. I'm not sure if this has any real effect seeing as the money goes into the Local Government Fund anyway.

The Local Government Fund does appear to be a political slush fund though.

ishmael whale wrote:

Get a site off the IDA, compare the cost of it to what some local gombeen was looking for and no-one will notice that building the office on it will cost €80 million.

Hmm, robbing Peter to pay Paul ....

uncivilservant · 25-05-2005 10:10PM

More Decentralisation savings:

More than 90% of all development aid staff are likely to leave Development Co-operation Ireland (DCI) by 2007, because only 11 out of 123 existing staff have said they will relocate to Limerick.

None of the 10-strong senior management team, at Counsellor and principal officer level, have applied to go to Limerick.

75% of the civil servants who have said they want to join DCI in order to move to Limerick are from outside the Department of Foreign Affairs, and are unlikely to have any significant development experience.

The embargo on public service recruitment means DCI will not be allowed to recruit experienced staff.

IMPACT official Angela Kirk said it would not be possible to double Ireland's aid spending in a responsible and accountable way on this basis.

"IMPACT would welcome a firm Government timetable for meeting its international commitment to reach the 0.7% development aid target. But the taxpayer can legitimately ask how this can be done sensibly and safely if decentralisation goes ahead. No other public service or commercial organisation would attempt to double its output while casually stripping itself of virtually all its management and specialist expertise," she said.

http://www.impact.ie/media/may/2005/decentral240505.htm

From today's Irish Times:

Ms Kirk said this would mean a huge skills shortage "for years to come", predicting those who currently work in DCI and who do not want to move to Limerick would leave the Civil Service to work for NGOs or other bodies in the field.

It would take years to replace the skills, she said. A portion of the resources which should be going towards meeting the 0.7 per cent target would be used on retraining and recruitment, she said.

"Non-specialist civil servants will not be able to just slip into these roles. These are people who have trained at third level, have bachelor's degrees and master's in Development Aid and who have worked on the ground overseas."

ishmael whale · 29-05-2005 01:27AM

A fair trip around the topic, including a rare recognition of the extent to which the current approach to regional policy has gobbled up resources to no avail.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2095-1631748,00.html

Irish Outlook: Damien Kiberd: End capital punishment
……Tom Parlon, the minister in charge of the Office of Public Works, proposes to spend €900m of taxpayers’ cash on relocating 10,000 public servants to about 50 rural locations. This will have a derisory effect on each of the “chosen” target destinations. It is also likely, based on the initial response from unions, that many public servants will not want to travel long distances. They may be willing to go to Portlaoise, Athlone or Tullamore — but they don’t want to go to the western seaboard.

…... He may spend the cash relocating about 5,000 public servants in what are called dormer suburbs of greater Dublin. That would be a complete waste of time when the workforce of greater Dublin is growing by about 40,000 a year.

The sheer pointlessness of Parlon’s decentralisation programmes matches the ludicrous arguments built into the National Spatial Strategy. Political diktats meant that the strategy suggested a huge number of urban locations might be used as “growth hubs”.

These ideas may be futile but they are not new. Some years ago, the need to promote investment in the west of Ireland was so great that manufacturers got 100% capital allowances, 60% capital grants and a top-up special investment allowance of 20%. Effectively the cost of capital, not simply servicing it, was made negative by the state. Yet this did not turn Connemara into the Ruhr or Dingle into the Ile de France.

The policy did have some effects. Gross domestic product per capita in greater Dublin is about 1.5 times that of the country generally. In Germany, by contrast, the GDP per capita of Frankfurt exceeds that of Germany’s regions by a factor of 3.5. ...

Much of the myth-making about greater Dublin’s “excessive” development stems from the dominance of top public service posts by people from rural areas and also from a palpable sense the Dublin planners and politicians have not managed its growth in an efficient way. This leads to an assumption that the capital is “too big” already. On a global scale, Dublin is a relatively small city and should not overplay its hand as a destination for foreign direct investment. If Dublin were in China, it would not figure in the league table of top cities. ….We would be far better served if we coped with the fact that greater Dublin is going to grow at a continuing exponential pace in coming years.

……. Whatever the cause of the problems, would we not be better off spending Parlon’s €900m on putting Dublin in order, instead of frittering it away on a statistically irrelevant plan to decentralise?.……..

NewDubliner · 29-05-2005 08:52AM

This, from the PSEU's latest report from its meeting with the DIG:

http://www.pseu.ie/docs/Decent32.doc

........
Members had pointed out that there did not seem to be a facility to withdraw indications of interest under the CAF. This was particularly important as some staff now wished to withdraw applications and to indicate a wish to be accommodated in Dublin.

The Official Side Representatives expressed some surprise and agreed to look into the matter.

I'm not certain if the Official Side was surprised by the omission of a withdrawal facility in their system or by the possibility that staff might change their minds.

Dinarius · 29-05-2005 10:25AM

NewDubliner wrote:

This, from the PSEU's latest report from its meeting with the DIG:

http://www.pseu.ie/docs/Decent32.docI'm not certain if the Official Side was surprised by the omission of a withdrawal facility in their system or by the possibility that staff might change their minds.

My wife, a civil servant, spoke to HR about this problem (in a moment of weakness, we had decided that we wanted to move and she had put her name down).

Apparently, the way it works is this: when you receive your letter of offer of transfer, you then decline.

D.

NewDubliner · 29-05-2005 10:41AM

Dinarius wrote:

Apparently, the way it works is this: when you receive your letter of offer of transfer, you then decline.D.

That's understandable, but if it happens a lot it could skew Tom Parlon's projections somewhat.

I've also heard of computer people putting their names down, just so they could spend more time at their chosen vocation until the government starts its purge of the Dublin IT staff. However, if they wihdraw their applications too soon, they'll be forced to train in their replacements before being sent to a Dublin gulag.

pete · 29-05-2005 01:31PM

NewDubliner wrote:

That's understandable, but if it happens a lot it could skew Tom Parlon's projections somewhat.

I don't think "if it happens" comes into it at all. I personally know of many, many civil servants who have "expressed an interest" in locations they have no intention of going to (or know will never happen) just to be left alone in their current position.

I've also heard of computer people putting their names down, just so they could spend more time at their chosen vocation until the government starts its purge of the Dublin IT staff. However, if they wihdraw their applications too soon, they'll be forced to train in their replacements before being sent to a Dublin gulag.

To be honest I doubt if many will withdraw before the absolute last minute, which should be.... interesting.

Decentralisation

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