Decentralisation

NewDubliner · 20-04-2005 08:07PM

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Let me get this straight.
Now you are saying when it comes to Decentralisation,
there has been no independent report/study commissioned,
yet it will cost as much as any other major project.

With a stadium, a metro, a new road or an airport there would at least be something tangible to show for the money. Indeed, there would be examples of how it had been done in other countries to allow us to learn how & when it could succeed here.

I've been assured by a FF councillor that 'Decentralisation will be worth it at any price'. So that's all we need to know

NewDubliner · 21-04-2005 07:36AM

In the week when Finbarr Flood has been appointed 'independent' chairman of the DIG:

From the Irish Independent:

Public servants told: move or you lose promotion

THE Government is to impose a "no move, no promotion" regime on civil servants in a bid to accelerate its controversial decentralisation programme.

The Cabinet has agreed to back a tougher approach by Finance Minister Brian Cowen. He will implement a solution if long-running negotiations with civil and public service unions don't bring agreement in the coming weeks.

Ministers were told at their weekly Cabinet meeting there is a risk the move will lead to industrial unrest among civil and public service workers, with the danger of disruption to the public.

The hardline stance seems certain to put the coalition on a major collision course with the unions over promotions for staff who don't want to move out of Dublin.

It also runs counter to promises made initially that all transfers under the scheme - aimed at moving 10,300 civil servants out of the capital - would be voluntary.

The Department of Finance has been trying to ensure that a substantial proportion of promotions are made on condition that those appointed commit themselves to taking a decentralised post.

The confrontation between Government and unions is looming at a crucial time for the whole decentralisation process, as buildings are being acquired in several of the 53 locations around the country earmarked for the big move.

The department is concerned that if the promotion issue is not sorted out, implementation of the whole programme will be delayed, resulting in extra costs as new buildings are only partially occupied over an extended period.

Mr Cowen's predecessor in finance, Charlie McCreevy, made decentralisation the cornerstone of his last Budget in Decemnber 2003 but the process has been dogged by setbacks.

The department said there were "some indications" that the Public Service Executive Union (PSEU), representing the executive grades, was willing to reach agreement but it added: "The same cannot be said at this stage for the Association of Higher Civil and Public Servants (AHCPS) and the Civil and Public Services Union (CPSU).

"Unless there is serious movement on their part, an agreed approach may not be possible, making an imposed solution the only way to ensure there are no further delays."

If no deal is done with the unions, Mr Cowen wants all appointments from inter-departmental panels to be made on the basis of the appointees agreeing to move to a post in a decentralising unit or existing provincial office. This covers about 40pc of promotions, rising to 50pc in 2007. Promotions will initially continue to be made in the normal way.

But for a period, "to be agreed in negotiations" prior to the actual move, some and eventually all promotions will be made on the basis of a commitment to relocate until all of a department's decentralisation requirements in the relevant grade at its new location are met.

The department admitted there was a risk that the "imposition" of a solution "may lead to industrial relations problems".

But it said that as contracts for accommodation were now close to finalisation in many cases, there was "a pressing need" to ensure the programme was carried out in "an orderly and timely" way.

Gene McKenna
Political Editor

ishmael whale · 21-04-2005 10:27AM

...Ministers were told at their weekly Cabinet meeting there is a risk the move will lead to industrial unrest among civil and public service workers, with the dnger of disruption to the public...

Why are they deciding they need to push through this nonsense? Why not show this kind of decisiveness in dealing with the aviation sector, where it might actually have achieved some benefit?

NewDubliner · 21-04-2005 08:53PM

ishmael whale wrote:

Why are they deciding they need to push through this nonsense? Why not show this kind of decisiveness in dealing with the aviation sector, where it might actually have achieved some benefit?

One possibility is that the government is deliberately goading the staff to walk out on the negotiations so that the FF/PD junta can get out of the huge mess they got themselves into.

Come the election, they can then blame 'selfish, overpaid Dublin civil-servants' for sinking their wonderful plan for saving rural Ireland.

RicardoSmith · 21-04-2005 09:42PM

I get the impression that it will all fast tracked so that the process is too far along to backtrack regardless.

NewDubliner · 21-04-2005 10:28PM

RicardoSmith wrote:

I get the impression that it will all fast tracked so that the process is too far along to backtrack regardless.

It depends what you mean by 'process'. If you simply mean 'committed money to buildings' or 'made big promises to their supporters ', they've dug themselves in deep.

If you mean 'recruited approprtiately experienced staff for the jobs' or 'balanced the budget', then, no, they've barely made any progress.

That's why they're waving a big stick.

RicardoSmith · 21-04-2005 10:44PM

Sites are being bought, risk assesment reports are being produced, new contracts, promotions are subject to accepting "relocation". Plans for the relocation are being drafted by everyone. That kinda seems like the start of a process no? The crunch will come when the buildings have to be started as thats when additional funds are required. Then someone has to pay for that.

NewDubliner · 21-04-2005 11:41PM

RicardoSmith wrote:

... risk assesment reports are being produced, ....plans for the relocation are being drafted by everyone. ...

Ah yes, but have you seen any of these reports and plans?

Did you notice anything missing?

RicardoSmith · 22-04-2005 12:56AM

NewDubliner wrote:

Ah yes, but have you seen any of these reports and plans?

Did you notice anything missing?

Yes.
Nothing that would stop the move.

NewDubliner · 22-04-2005 07:52AM

RicardoSmith wrote:

Yes.
Nothing that would stop the move.

Sadly, this could be very true, if it's been decided to ignore massive unbudgeted costs and the absence of appropriate staff for the jobs being relocated.

BolBill · 22-04-2005 11:08AM

Nice to see yet another example of the public knowing about things before the governments own employees.
Decntralisation WAS a great idea, until they realised that they wont get the numbers they require, they can't sack anybody and now they are desperate so they'll stop promotion. Its just another example of the FF/PD government and its inadequacies. When has there been a government that makes blatant errors EVERY week? Ahern is a joke, he cant even read properly, nevermind speak. As the European election showed, if there was a general election tomorrow, FF could say bye bye to government.

NewDubliner · 22-04-2005 06:24PM

This from the PSEU website: http://www.pseu.ie/docs/Decent28.doc. Apparently it's hoped to solve the lack of ICT expertese among staff willing to leave Dublin by promoting them......

The Official Side Representatives referred to an earlier report of the Decentralisation Implementation Group as it referred to ICT Units and staff. They indicated that a draft paper would be presented shortly as the individual Departments had been asked to develop plans. As an indicator of likely recommendations, it was noted that this paper would refer to the use of the CAF as far as possible, that efforts to facilitate ICT and non-ICT staff in moving into ICT areas would be made but that non existing ICT staff could be, and would be, subject to aptitude testing. However, it was anticipated that this process was unlikely to secure sufficient suitable applicants and, therefore, it was likely that some inter-departmental promotions would be offered to attract staff into ICT Units who would be willing to re-locate.

The PSEU Representative, while noting that ICT staff were members of General Service grades, made the point that such conditional promotions would exacerbate the potential problem of surplus staff in Dublin and that the surplus staff themselves would be unlikely to be found alternative ICT work and would, in most circumstances, be faced with re-deployment into generalist non-ICT work.

It was agreed that these issues would have to be discussed further when the draft paper was received.

uncivilservant · 23-04-2005 01:14AM

From the Irish Independent website (I couldn't find it in the actual paper):

YESTERDAY'S Public Service Executive Union conference heard from some senior civil servants in favour of decentralisation, for different reasons.

Lawrence O'Loughlin said he endured a four and a half hour trip every morning from the Burren in north Clare to his job at the Department of Finance in central Dublin, driving part of the way and then travelling by train in the expectation that his job would be decentralised to Tullamore.

Cork delegate Nigella Murphy said decentralisation would rebalance "the inequality which has penalised people like me in the country. Our union sub is as good as those of the Dublin members."

I'd like to post more from the article... but that's it. A fine piece of balanced reportage if ever I saw one.

ishmael whale · 23-04-2005 12:33PM

Cork delegate Nigella Murphy said decentralisation would rebalance "the inequality which has penalised people like me in the country. Our union sub is as good as those of the Dublin members."

I would just like to confirm that, indeed, ensuring value for money for trade union subscriptions is the prime function of Government, and takes precedence over issues like transport infrastructure, efficient management of the health service, development of the education sector and other such peripheral matters.

Lawrence O'Loughlin said he endured a four and a half hour trip every morning from the Burren in north Clare to his job at the Department of Finance in central Dublin, driving part of the way and then travelling by train in the expectation that his job would be decentralised to Tullamore.

I hate singling out an ordinary punter, but I take it he knew the media were present. 'I live in the Burren, so I took a job in Dublin because McCreevy said it would be moving to Tullamore.' Does anyone else find this a bit odd?

I can understand someone saying "I work in Dublin, but I can only afford a house in Edenderry/Kinnegad/Navan" or whatever. But this just seems kind of wierd. I mean there's already decentralised offices in Limerick, Ennis and Shannon to name but a few and, indeed, a fair array of employment opportunities around Limerick/Shannon generally. Commuting from Clare to Dublin just isn't a typical life experience, and is not caused by some economic inbalance that needs a public policy response.

uncivilservant · 23-04-2005 02:24PM

http://www.utvlive.com/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=59381&pt=n

The Public Service Executive Union has voted in favour of a watering down of their decentralisation policy.

A shortfall of applications for posts in decentralised areas has led to a heated debate at the PSEU conference which is being held at the Bunratty Shannon Shamrock Hotel.

Union members voted 2 to 1 in favour of only those employees who are promoted between departments having to decentralise.

Patricia Tobin the President of the Public Service Executive Union, says the conference in Bunratty has been productive.

I wasn't aware they had a policy.

imarc · 23-04-2005 02:38PM

The big stick they're waving about promotions won't work with everyone. I work for a state agency where promotions are a very very rare thing indeed :mad:

seanogal · 23-04-2005 02:45PM

Cromwell lives on.I always thought his policies were frowned upon on this island.

NewDubliner · 23-04-2005 03:22PM

I think we can look forward to to some very interesting anomoles.

Take for example, the ICT staff who've always had a hard time getting promoted in competitions which are biased towards non-specialist staff. If they decide to stay in Dublin, they get put onto odd jobs & have no chance of promotion. If they decide to move, they get to keep their old jobs.

Meanwhile, the 'mobile' non-ICT-specialists who've learned to chant the required PMDS/Partnership mantras will be offered promotion into ICT jobs over the heads of the more experienced/skilled ICT staff......

NewDubliner · 27-04-2005 08:56PM

From Online.ie:

A lack of specialist expertise in the civil service led to a waste of billions of euro taxpayers' money, it emerged tonight.

And how many specialists will we have in the right job after decentralisation?

The former Fine Gael leader also said projects may have been brought to the table severely under budget for political reasons, but he said that had yet to be proved.

Hmm, €900m sounds a bit low.......

The_Conductor · 27-04-2005 09:08PM

NewDubliner wrote:

From Online.ie:
And how many specialists will we have in the right job after decentralisation?

Hmm, €900m sounds a bit low.......

Sorry for being a total and utter cynic- but how many specialists are there in the right jobs prior to decentralisation........
I am aware of lab technicians, food scientists, a forester, several certified accountants, social workers, special needs teachers etc- all of whom have been refused permission at one time or another to move to areas where they have a speciality or training.......

There are very many highly educated and skilled people in manilla administrative roles, because of a policy in several government departments of not wanting to know what the qualifications of their staff are, much less match them up with an area where they would be well placed to offer invaluable advice and assistance. It can be very demoralising...... You really do get fed up

Yes, there will be more fed up and demoralised people, incredibly underemployed. The media and the government just don't really seem to care. Until such a time as civil servants are seen as individual people, doing their every day duties to the best of their abilities- instead of a nameles entity ripe of beating up in the media and the public, things are just not going to change.....

pete · 28-04-2005 11:21PM

Some more analysis courtesy of a PSEU document adopted at the 2005 ADC:

2.1 It would be dangerous to draw too many absolute conclusions from the outcome of the initial phase of the CAF process. All that can be said for it is that it provides an indication of the levels of interest in re-locating. Inevitably, the passage of time will result in changes in people’s preferences and intentions and inevitably also some people will have applied with only the vaguest interest in re-locating, safe in the knowledge that an application implied no commitment. Similarly, there are likely to be people with some interest in re-locating who did not, for various reasons, apply at the time. For these reasons, anything that is said about the CAF should be read as no more than a broad reflection on the levels of interest expressed.

2.2 With these qualifications in mind, the following statistics in the grades that this Union represents should be noted :
a) A total of 1,182.5 Civil Service posts at HEO and equivalent were advertised for new locations under the CAF. By 7 September, 2004, the cut-off date for priority applications, a total of 876 people had applied in these grades to re-locate to one of these locations, (74% of the number sought) *

b) A total of 1,503 Civil Service posts at EO and equivalent were advertised for new locations. By 7 September 2004, a total of 1,283 had applied in these grades (85% of the number sought) *

c) However, of the 876 people at HEO and equivalent who applied, a total of 324 were not located in Dublin and the EO equivalent figures were that of the 1,283 applicants, 621 were described as ‘Provincial’

d) This high number of non-Dublin applications brings into relief the number of Dublin-based Civil Servants who expressed interest in moving to existing locations. In all 3,350 Civil Servants located currently outside Dublin indicated an interest in re-locating but only 525 Dublin-based Civil Servants indicated an interest in moving to existing locations

e) The numbers in State Agencies who expressed an interest in re-locating was negligible. 2,345 posts were advertised in State Agencies and only 732 staff in those Agencies expressed any interest in the Programme.

f) Given the knock-on consequences for members of this Union it is worth noting that 240.5 Principal posts in the Civil Service were advertised and 92 people applied - 69 in Dublin and 23 in Provincial locations. At Assistant Principal level, 629.6 posts were advertised and 423 people applied - 314 in Dublin and 109 in Provincial locations.
* It could be dangerous to draw too many conclusions from these figures as they show the picture as a whole, whereas some locations were over-subscribed and others were under-subscribed and, in some cases, significantly so.

I'll admit I haven't read the entire document, but I have to wonder what the PSEU's basis is for stating "... the fact that we already have 3000+ members living and working outside of Dublin who would universally welcome the entire programme". In the absence of them actually surveying their membership, I fail to see how they could possibly know this.

The_Conductor · 29-04-2005 01:03PM

So essentially- of the vast number of Dublin based posts, for mooted decentralisation, there is a shortage of people who want to take them. Given that a lot of decentralisation issues seem to have been swept off the agenda by the PSEU standing orders committee (as per letter from Entemp branch secretary)- I think we can now safely say that the PSEU has finally decided to retreat from protecting or even pretending to advocate the interests of their Dublin based staff...... Bet you quite a few of the Departments with posts being decentralised are headed by non-Dublin based PSEU chairs? Anyone care to check.

So what exactly are your options, if, as a civil servant of a particular rank, you rely on the PSEU to represent you, when its blatantly obvious they have precious little interest in you, other than to collect their subs from your payslip?

I, for one, no longer believe that the best interests of Dublin based civil servants whose posts are being decentralised, are being represented by anyone whatsoever.........

I'm not going to moan about specific cases or circumstances- the whole bloody lot of us, civil servants, the electorate, communities- we're all down the creek.

I give up.

NewDubliner · 03-05-2005 07:06PM

This paper, drafted by the department of Finance has been published by the AHCPS on their web site:http://www.ahcps.ie/decentralisation/ICTPaper.doc

'7' looks like a licence to outsource, '8' looks like a threat to refuseniks & 9 signals the intention to replace most of senior management of ICT as soon as possible.

Also on '8', I'm sure that the Dublin ICT staff who are being asked to do their own jobs and train in in their replacements will be very motivated by the loss of all promotion prospects and the empty promise that they "will be accommodated as best as possible in subsequent post allocations."

AFAIK the cost of these measures has not been included in Tom Parlon's €900m.

Staffing of ICT positions for decentralisation programme
Introduction

1. The Report of the Decentralisation Implementation Group entitled “Selection of organisations/locations for inclusion in the first phase of moves” was approved by the Government in November, 2004. This Report included recommendations on the advancement of the implementation of the relocation of the ICT elements of the Department of Agriculture and Food, Social and Family Affairs, REACH, the Revenue Commissioners, CMOD and the Local Government Computer Services Board. All public bodies, however, have mission critical ICT elements and this paper should therefore be viewed as applying to all Departments/Offices.

2. The DIG Report noted that the Budget 2004 announcement of the decentralisation programme recognised the importance of ICT systems in terms of service delivery and the need for particular care in managing the relocation of these services, and the associated jobs, outside Dublin. The Group stated that it believed that the decentralisation of ICT jobs required detailed planning by individual bodies and that they would be facilitated by the development and operation of a number of central initiatives designed to help public bodies to secure the necessary staff skills and to make use of common ICT infrastructures.

Transfers
3. The need for a strong “pipeline” of ICT staff to make good any staff losses arising was one of the initiatives identified by the Implementation Group. Based on this recommendation, CMOD have worked with the relocating organisations to identify the range of initiatives that will be required to staff the ICT elements of the relocating organisations. As part of this work Departments/Offices have received full details of the numbers/grades of their ICT staff willing to transfer from the Central Applications Facility.

4. Based on the information supplied from the CAF, Departments/Offices will attempt, in the first instance, to fill ICT posts using the agreed CAF rankings. To ensure that those applicants from another Department/Office have the requisite skills to fill an ICT post, (at the same grade) the originating Department will be required to certify the applicants stated ICT skills and current role. Applicants who are currently working in a non-ICT role will, in the first instance, be required to undergo normal aptitude testing and interview for ICT posts. Successful applicants at this stage of the selection process will then be required to undergo and succeed in a certified ICT training programme before being assured of a transfer to the relocating Department.

Promotions
5. When the processes detailed at 4 above are completed it is anticipated that vacancies will still exist. In this event, Departments/Offices intend to conduct specific ICT promotion competitions (both internal and inter-departmental) to fill the shortfall in numbers willing to relocate. These competitions will be based on existing standardised ICT skill sets (e.g. the ICS skill listing). Applicants for these competitions will be required to either

(a) already have appropriate ICT qualifications and experience or
(b) commit to undergo and succeed in a certified ICT training programme as a prior condition of promotion.

It will be strict condition of all transfers/promotions under (4) and (5) above that the applicants agree to relocate to the relevant provincial locations for the agreed period appropriate to the grade.

Recruitment
6. Where sufficient staff to make up the shortfalls do not emerge from either the transfers, certified training programmes or promotions, Departments/Offices will proceed to recruit qualified, experienced ICT personnel at all grades, in accordance with the procedures agreed with the unions in the context of sustaining progress.

7. In tandem with the above, ICT Divisions will have continued freedom to go to the market to identify and employ external experts (defined as individuals with a particular expertise that would take a minimum of 2 years to develop) and contractors/consultants as stop-gap measures until sufficient numbers of internal staff with requisite knowledge and experience are in place.

8. Every effort will be made to ensure that experienced and skilled ICT staff, who have opted to remain in Dublin, and who have assisted with the decentralisation programme in terms of planning, mentoring, coaching, hand-overs, system migration, etc., will be accommodated as best as possible in subsequent post allocations.

9. Replacements for senior ICT managers who have opted to remain in Dublin, will be put in place at the earliest possible date to facilitate planning and training.

ishmael whale · 04-05-2005 11:14AM

NewDubliner wrote:

AFAIK the cost of these measures has not been included in Tom Parlon's €900m.

To be clear, the €900 million is just the cost of land and builidings - not IT costs, furnature, training or anything else. Just bricks and mortar.

ishmael whale · 04-05-2005 02:50PM

Glass cutting, map making, it’s the same business really.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0504/print/waterford
485 jobs axed at Waterford Crystal

”….Mr Cullen said he would join with employee representatives, business groups and all interested parties to turn this situation around. In particular, he will be working immediately to ensure that the proposed decentralisation of Ordnance Survey Ireland to Dungarvan is accelerated…..”

RicardoSmith · 04-05-2005 03:02PM

ishmael whale wrote:

Glass cutting, map making, it’s the same business really.

2 funny.

ishmael whale · 04-05-2005 03:15PM

Sorry to post yet again, but this is just the kind of local paper suspend-your-critical-faculties-while-we-talk-bollocks story that I love. It starts by saying 96% of professionals all over Ireland would recommend a move to the North West, and goes on to say this should encourage people to decentralise.

Then you look at the detail and you see what they are actually saying is out of 50 people who sought relocation to the North West through a particular recruitment firm, 48 said they would recommend relocation to others.

Put another way, 50 people looked to move there and two now seem to regret it. Should that convince people uncertain about moving to the North West that they should change their minds? Hmmm.

http://www.westernpeople.ie/news/story.asp?j=25127
Last month, one of the country’s leading recruitment firms, Collins McNicholas, revealed that 96% of professionals throughout Ireland would recommend relocation to the North West. These figures come as a result of a survey that the recruitment firm carried out recently… The survey was conducted in January 2005 and was amongst 50 professionals who had sought relocation to the North West with the company.……”…These findings also provide timely encouragement for those considering relocating under the Government’s programme of decentralisation,….”

NewDubliner · 04-05-2005 06:07PM

”….Mr Cullen said he would join with employee representatives, business groups and all interested parties to turn this situation around. In particular, he will be working immediately to ensure that the proposed decentralisation of Ordnance Survey Ireland to Dungarvan is accelerated…..”

So Cullen, knowing that the staff in Dublin do not want to move their families to Waterford, is going to take their jobs away and give them to people in Waterford instead?

Victor · 04-05-2005 09:25PM

ishmael whale wrote:

Then you look at the detail and you see what they are actually saying is out of 50 people who sought relocation to the North West through a particular recruitment firm, 48 said they would recommend relocation to others.

You seem to be somehow mistaken.

When asked by the interviewer, in a loaded questionaire, a few people in an unrepresentative sample who really, really wanted to get a particular job, answered they would recommend the North West .

uncivilservant · 04-05-2005 10:39PM

ishmael whale wrote:

Glass cutting, map making, it’s the same business really.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0504/print/waterford
485 jobs axed at Waterford Crystal

”….Mr Cullen said he would join with employee representatives, business groups and all interested parties to turn this situation around. In particular, he will be working immediately to ensure that the proposed decentralisation of Ordnance Survey Ireland to Dungarvan is accelerated…..”

Accelerated??!??!

There are 199 OSI posts earmarked for Dungarvan. Per the latest available figures:

63 of these posts are 'general administrative' Civil Service grades. 47 general service Civil Servants (12 from Dublin, 35 already in provincial locations) have 'expressed an interest' in these posts.
The other 136 posts are 'Professional, Technical and Departmental grades' for which 15 serving OSI staff (14 from Dublin, 1 provincial) expressed an interest.

Doesn't take a genius to figure out why Dungarvan wasn't on the 'early movers' list....

Decentralisation

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