Prayer

Oryx · 12-04-2005 05:27PM #1

Do you pray, in the conventional sense? I used to, but it no longer seems right for me to pray to a god figure, now it has changed to more of a meditative approach. Only when things get really bad do I send out pleas to heaven.

I wondered how others pray, or connect to the spiritual.

Elessar · 12-04-2005 05:37PM

Hi KatieK,

I'm not much of a praying person. Having read some of your posts, your beliefs are much like mine. I was wondering if you can tell me about meditation, I'd like to give that a shot. Also what is it about it that you like? I've heard you can experience different things with it.

CathyMoran · 12-04-2005 05:37PM

Yes, I would pray - both in the formal sense (in terms of saying a prayer) and in the informal sense in that of going for a walk and thinking about spiritual issues, thinking about God. Sometimes when I am saying a formal prayer I will let my mind mull over God at the same time and let those thoughts lead me. I do occasionally go into church and light candles (even though I am scared of fire) and soak up the atmosphere - some of the masses where there is a lot of singing can be very moving too. Closing your eyes, concentrating on your hands then goingf inwards to your breathing then thinking about God is also very moving.

solas · 12-04-2005 05:41PM

I've spent quite some time among spiritual circles be it as facilitating healing or mediumship and prayer has always been a huge part of it. Even as meditating, clearing your space is really opening up to a higher source of inspiration..or prayer.
I remember someone saying once that prayer is asking and meditation is listening.

Every circle/gathering opens with a prayer, a request for protection, blessing or divine inspiration.
Would be no harm to request a blessing for this forum, something along the lines of Rath Dè oraibh..

so be it

CathyMoran · 12-04-2005 06:29PM

solas wrote:

Every circle/gathering opens with a prayer, a request for protection, blessing or divine inspiration.
Would be no harm to request a blessing for this forum, something along the lines of "an it harm none, do what you will"..

so be it

That seems like a really lovely idea

Good luck to the new forum. Sometimes I feel that prayer is like swiming - you have to place your faith in something greater than you to carry you.

solas · 12-04-2005 06:57PM

I like that analogy. I would much prefer to swim in clear fresh water than polluted murky stuff.

Nevyn · 12-04-2005 09:28PM

solas wrote:

Would be no harm to request a blessing for this forum, something along the lines of "an it harm none, do what you will"..

Sorry dont mean to be picky but...

'an it harm none, do what you will' is not a blessing but the Wiccan Rede.
This the guide by which wiccans live thier lives and judge their actions.
'An it harm none' refers to do now harm by action or inaction to ourselfs,
others, the enviroment, nature, animals, the bio sphere and where ever
we find ourselfs on this plane or on others.
Keeps you constants assesing what you are doing.

I pray everyday, how I choose to live my life is in it's self an act of devotion
to my Gods. This can go from lighting a candle, spending time in mediation,
attending circle to even on very busy days simply saying 'Oi you two, thanks'

If I was to ask for a blessing for this place, I would say
' May our Gods, guides and ancesters watch over us here as we work towards
understanding.'

Or Like Granny WeatherWax ' Blessing be on this place and all here in it.'

solas · 12-04-2005 09:34PM

I am aware that it is the wiccan rede, I felt it was appropriate under the circumstances.

do you not think it would be a blessing if all those who came here would treat each other with respect?
the thought and intention matter, especially where prayer is concerned.

Nevyn · 12-04-2005 10:54PM

solas wrote:

I am aware that it is the wiccan rede, I felt it was appropriate under the circumstances.

I know it is the Rede and you know it is the Rede but a lot of people who read here may not and I just wanted to clarify that that is the Rede and not a wiccan or pagan prayer. Just trying to advoid any confusion.

solas · 12-04-2005 11:02PM

y'know I didnt think saying a prayer was going to be such an issue, I thhought the words "an it harm none, do what you will".. speak for themselves. and if it harms none, do what you will. I didnt feel like it needed an interpretation, but I will change my original prayer to something which suits everybody.

stevenmu · 13-04-2005 10:18AM

Mind you don't trip over each others good intentions

I think the sentiment of the Rede is about right, but if it's to be used as a slogan it should probably be indentified as such or else someone (and there's always at least one) will think they're being subverted into paganism without their knowledge.

As for the original topic, I think prayer can be a good way to focus your thoughts and get yourself in the right frame of mind. I'm not big into deity worship or structured prayer, I think a prayer can even be just thinking things over in your mind and maybe setting goals for yourself. I suppose it depends on how you want to define "prayer".

Talliesin · 13-04-2005 12:21PM

A blessing suitable for a forum that by it's very nature is populated by people of mixed spiritual and religious leanings.

"Blessings upon this forum".

Not even sure if that does it.

Oryx · 13-04-2005 12:44PM

Elessar wrote:

Hi KatieK,

I'm not much of a praying person. Having read some of your posts, your beliefs are much like mine. I was wondering if you can tell me about meditation, I'd like to give that a shot. Also what is it about it that you like? I've heard you can experience different things with it.

I dont feel qualified to advise you how to begin, I kinda picked it up as I went along, perhaps others can give you nuts and bolts on how to begin. I like it because it helps to stop the whirlwind of thoughts most of us have in our heads all the time, and its very relaxing. I base it on breathing exercises and being aware but unconcerned about my surroundings. It also helps me to become aware of the energy surrounding us that is referred to as chi/light/divine presence, etc. Hope this makes sense!

solas · 13-04-2005 12:51PM

I think the sentiment of the Rede is about right, but if it's to be used as a slogan it should probably be indentified as such or else someone (and there's always at least one) will think they're being subverted into paganism without their knowledge.

I'm not a wiccan.
I learned those words a long time ago and not as any part of wiccan ritual. If I said I found them in an angel card book would that make it different?
I gestured them for the intent of the words.
Religions are like languages, just because I can speak spanish does not mean I am from spain.
Should I wear a label now to discern which belief I am?
I have prayed with people of other faiths for such a long time, I never considered that I was being connverted when doing so, just listening to someone speaking a different language. The intent usually rises above the words.

stevenmu · 13-04-2005 01:10PM

When I first read through the thread I thought you were proposing an 'official prayer' for the forum, in that case it seems reasonably to include what it actually is. Reading back now it seems more like something you just wanted to post, sorry for the misunderstanding

.

transperson · 13-04-2005 04:00PM

im not great for praying, more just reflecting and contemplating.
like the OP i feel the meditative approach is better, im not really sure what to pray to and prayer kinda has associations of forced hail mary's and Glory be's in primary school. what thead said was right you can live your whole life as an act of devotion, that is the coolest idea, no need for those forced prayer sessions of old ireland.

Religions are like languages, just because I can speak spanish does not mean I am from spain

that is brilliant!

-you grow up learning a language.
-most people never learn a new one and cannot understand other languages.
-new languages can always be learned.
-new languages are always learned through the understanding of the last.
-you can speak many languages.
-all language describes the same thing[reality], but in different ways.
-each languages vocabulary is different,some have many words for somethings and others have none for those very same things.
-the language you learn affects how you percieve the world.

feel free to interchange the words language and religion in the above sentences.

Nevyn · 13-04-2005 04:15PM

<sigh> Sorry the rede again.

What you ment but it and where you came across it does not change what it is.

The first recorded mention of the Wiccan Rede in the eight-word form popular today, was in a speech by Doreen Valiente on October 3, 1964 at what may have been the first witches' dinner organized in modern history. The event was sponsored by Pentagram, a quarterly newsletter and "witchcraft review" started and published by Gerard Noel in 1964

http://www.waningmoon.com/ethics/rede3.shtml

For me it was a bit like having someone say I'm going to say a pray and then
reciting the 12 commandment, or love thy neighbour as yourself, a bit odd and a bit jarring.
I do see the the heart felt sentiment behind it Solas
and I am not having a go but disscussing it, which is pretty much the idea behind this forum.

solas · 13-04-2005 04:59PM

what if i had said..
Every circle/gathering opens with a prayer, a request for protection, blessing or divine inspiration.
Would be no harm to request a blessing for this forum, something along the lines of "love thy neighbour as thyself"

would you say..thats not a prayer thats a commandment?

It seems that you consider my prayer inappropriate, I apologise, but I still feel the intent behind my message should be noted and not the beurocracy of the religion is stems from.

Talliesin · 14-04-2005 12:28AM

solas wrote:

what if i had said..
Every circle/gathering opens with a prayer, a request for protection, blessing or divine inspiration.
Would be no harm to request a blessing for this forum, something along the lines of "love thy neighbour as thyself"

would you say..thats not a prayer thats a commandment?

Yes I would have, though only because this is a forum where discussing the difference between the two is on topic.

Okay, I admit it, on other forums I would have said it too just to be an argumentative bugger, indeed I'm such an argumentative bugger that I'd say that it is a prayer, but you are praying to the members of the forum rather than any divine figure (from the Latin, precaria, to entreaty, the word "pray" is still found in this more general sense in some English dialects).

In any case I don't feel any need to love my neighbour as myself if they mess with me or mine. Just what I do to a neighbour that treatens my family is much more a matter of tactics than ethics. Similarly, if someone feels they shouldn't eat meat on a Friday because while harmless in itself (assuming they have no ethical issues with eating meat at all) it is displeasing to their God to do so, the Rede may not go down so well (though at least it is a rede, that is to say counsel or advice, rather than a commandment - the Rede doesn't say "Don't do harm", it says "If you do harm, you'd better be damn well ready for the consequesnces").

solas · 14-04-2005 12:42AM

but you are praying to the members of the forum rather than any divine figure

I disagree. I considered it a prayer for the members of this forum. I ask (request=prayer) that all will respect each other.

Similarly, if someone feels they shouldn't eat meat on a Friday because while harmless in itself (assuming they have no ethical issues with eating meat at all) it is displeasing to their God to do so, the Rede may not go down so well

I tought this forum was about learning and understanding and respecting our own and others faiths.
I would find it difficult to participate if any particular faith was being curtailed or prohibited.

the Rede doesn't say "Don't do harm", it says "If you do harm, you'd better be damn well ready for the consequesnces").

From what Ive read of the information provided in the paganism forum the statement is teh equivelent to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", and thats a statement I am already very familiar with.

In any case I don't feel any need to love my neighbour as myself if they mess with me or mine.

I respect your request.

Talliesin · 14-04-2005 01:09AM

solas wrote:

From what Ive read of the information provided in the paganism forum the statement is teh equivelent to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", and thats a statement I am already very familiar with.

Equivalent yes, exact equivalent no. Comparing the two is very interesting, not least because people honestly living their lives according to either will tend to be decent people, and that both the Rede and the Golden Rule are honoured by people whose attitudes range from complete pacifism through to support for first-strike military actions with a guarantee of civilian casaulties (myself being somewhere in the middle).

solas · 14-04-2005 01:24AM

From the sticky in paganism re wicca..

The rede fulfills the same function as does the "Golden Rule" for Jews and Christians;

The Golden Rule (do unto others as you would have them do to you/do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you) and the Wiccan Rede (If no harm is done, do as you will) are forms of the Ethic of Reciprocity. Greek philosophers in the fourth centurybce derived it from logic as the most basic moral code. It is the most basic relativistic-logic ethic, and on account of it's simplicity it is the most universal moral code known; appearing in nearly all cultures, being derived from multiple teachers, religions and philosophies at different times in different ways.
(including the New Testament, Talmud, Koran, and the Analects of Confucius).
The oldest appearance of it in an organized system dates to at least 1500bce.

Talliesin · 14-04-2005 02:41AM

solas wrote:

From the sticky in paganism re wicca..

The rede fulfills the same function as does the "Golden Rule" for Jews and Christians;

I'd agree with the statement you quote (though I'm sure I'd find something in the stickies I disagree with):
The Rede provides the core ethical guideline from which the ethical decisions of Wiccans in particular, and many other Pagans and some others that have adopted it follow.
The Golden Rule provides the core ethical guidline from which the ethical decisions of Jews and Christians and some others that have adopted it follow.
In this similarity the Rede and the Golden Rule do indeed fulfil the same function.

However, Wiccan ethics are different to Judeo-Christian ethics. Wiccan ethics are situational (any Wiccan law either follows from the Rede or is a matter of how a coven or tradition chooses to operate [that is, bureaucracy rather than ethics], ultimately you have to work out what you should do yourself), where Judeo-Christian ethics are legal (that is there is a set of commandments and laws to follow). Where a Christian might say (in a phrasing popular amongst some American Protestants) "What would Jesus do?" a Wiccan would just say "what should I do?".

At the root of this is a different concept of our relationship with the divine, the Judeo-Christian view of God is as a law-giver (though they differ as to just what laws and why one should follow them) which in turn relates to the Judeochristian view of their God as all-powerful. The Wiccan view of the Gods is not entirely identified with the source of the laws or ethical behaviour (though ones relationship with the divine will still impact on ones ethical decisions), after all the Gods don't always agree amongst themselves, and you really don't want to spend too much time around someone who thinks "What would Loki do?". Further there is a difference in the reasons for behaving ethically. Judaism would say "because that is what G*d wants you to do, so do it", Christianity would say "because that is what God wants you to do, also He'll punish you if you don't - however he is also a merciful God who will forgive you if seek his forgiveness" (different denominations differing as to how that forgiveness is sought and received), the Wicca, with different degrees of emphasis on the concept of Karma and/or the Threefold Law, essentially say "whatever you do, you're going to have to live with the consequences". (There is a further matter of a High Priest or High Priestess sharing the karma of those they initiate, not to mention that people of poor ethics are more likely to be oathbreakers, and in general we can't fob off the unethical behaviour of those we associate with as only impacting on them, it doesn't).

Nevyn · 14-04-2005 08:30AM

"What would Jesus do?"

That is a statement I find personally pretty funny for I really could not see myself using it in reguards to the Goddess I am devoted too.
Following the logical conclusion of "What would The Morrigan do?" could be
kind of messy.

Talliesin · 14-04-2005 08:42AM

Thaed wrote:

Following the logical conclusion of "What would The Morrigan do?" could be
kind of messy.

Yes, I imagine "What would Scathach do?" would in short time lead to my being shot in the neck by a police marksman.

Stabshauptmann · 14-04-2005 11:51AM

I often get asked do I practice any religion. And I think, yes - that is to say I have one, but do it practice it. How does one define practice? For most religions an important part is prayer.

For me to pray means to communicate with divine power. Whether you are asking for forgiveness, protection, inspiration or something else. I dont actually kneel and say "I want X". Its usually something burning away in the back of my mind. I try to justify it - why I either should or shouldnt get it and as far as I can tell, when I deserve good luck I get it and when Ive been a prick lately I dont. My prayers are more a case of me deciding how much I need something, do I deserve it and subconsciously deciding on some sort of sacrifice in payment.
When I consciously decide I'll do X if Y happens, Y never happens. But sometimes when I genuinly need something and I just really hope and pray it happens and then an oppurtunity occurs very close after it to pay for it and I do so willingly. Thats part of why I have such a strong belief in Karma.

"What would Loki do?".

For many religions an important part of prayer is to acknowledge this divine power, to worship it and devote yourself to its will.

Im not such the divine power, whatever it is, has a will or master plan. The be more correct, Ive absolutly no idea what the plan is if it exists.
So, when I pray, its not really for that reason though I often ask myself why are we here.

solas wrote:

The Golden Rule (do unto others as you would have them do to you/do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you) and the Wiccan Rede (If no harm is done, do as you will) are forms of the Ethic of Reciprocity. Greek philosophers in the fourth centurybce derived it from logic as the most basic moral code. It is the most basic relativistic-logic ethic, and on account of it's simplicity it is the most universal moral code known; appearing in nearly all cultures, being derived from multiple teachers, religions and philosophies at different times in different ways.
(including the New Testament, Talmud, Koran, and the Analects of Confucius).
The oldest appearance of it in an organized system dates to at least 1500bce.

The forum is a success!!
This is the kindof discussion we need, but should this be split from the origional thread about prayer? We're now discussing the rede and the commandments??

solas · 14-04-2005 12:12PM

This is the kindof discussion we need, but should this be split from the origional thread about prayer? We're now discussing the rede and the commandments??

I know the thread has moved on a bit, but i think it is appropriate under prayer. The OP sortof asked about how and why, if you do pray and who you pray to and I think commandments and the rede are both "requests" and I think of prayer as a request, also they are very much at the core of the system of belief from where the "ethics" of prayer are derived.

(There is a further matter of a High Priest or High Priestess sharing the karma of those they initiate, not to mention that people of poor ethics are more likely to be oathbreakers, and in general we can't fob off the unethical behaviour of those we associate with as only impacting on them, it doesn't).

I find that idea similar to the idea of "jesus dying for our sins".

what would Jesus do...That is a statement I find personally pretty funny for I really could not see myself using it in reguards to the Goddess I am devoted too.
Following the logical conclusion of "What would The Morrigan do?" could be
kind of messy.

The morrigan is a triple Goddess no? could be rather confusing, should you curse and spite your enemies until they do what you want...should you bless them so that they may win the battle..as long as its in your name..or should you just confuse them with lust so they don't know what they are doing?
Can understand why you might be confused.

When I was googling the golden rule last night I came across this

"Spiritual Acts of Mercy

The Spiritual Acts of Mercy are Christian acts that are to keep the two greatest commandments; "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.' This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like it, 'Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.'"

The seven Spiritual Acts of Mercy are:

* To admonish the sinner.
* To instruct the ignorant.
* To counsel the doubtful.
* To comfort the sorrowful.
* To bear wrongs patiently.
* To forgive all injuries.
* To pray for the living and the dead."

apparantly this is how Christians would do as Jesus would.

Talliesin · 14-04-2005 01:21PM

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

For many religions an important part of prayer is to acknowledge this divine power, to worship it and devote yourself to its will.

Loki's will is to unlease utter chaos and carnage upon the world. Without anything else in the mix, I don't want to meet people devoted to that will. But again, this comes from a view of divinity where there isn't a single authoritative, infallible deity who is the source of all morality.

If we look at the story of Abraham and Isaac, there G*d commands Abraham to kill Isaac. Abraham does so because it is G*d's will, and G*d has an angel intervene at the last moment and blesses Abraham for his faith.

If a God or Goddess told me to to kill my son I'd tell them to stick it up their sacred rectum.

I did come across an interesting article by a Rabbi who argued that Abraham similarly should have disobeyed G*d's commandment in this case and that he had actually failed a test of ethics set by G*d rather than a passed a test of faith, I doubt this has any degree of orthodoxy, and alas can't recall the name of the Rabbi to go looking for it.

Stabshauptmann · 14-04-2005 01:54PM

I thought ppl who believed in many gods either followed the collective wills of the gods or chose one god (for certain situations) and followed them??

How exactly does it work?

stevenmu · 14-04-2005 02:51PM

I know that historically it would be common for a particular village or area to worship a particular god (or somtimes subset of gods) out of the group of gods that they believed in, almost like them having a 'patron' god. This would often be based on what the village did for it's main source of living, for e.g. a farming community may specifically worship a weather/rain/sun god whereas a fishing community may worship a sea god. Villages or comunities would sometimes war with each other over their gods but it would be more a case of them believing that their god was angry with the others god, as opposed to the more modern idea of warring to convert the enemy to your own faith (of course they probably had their own alterior motives just like in modern times).

This doesn't really apply much in todays global village though. I'd guess nowadays (in western society at least) people would choose to worship whichever deity appeals to them the most, with occasional prayers to others if their area of 'exprtise' is related to whatever's desired.

who007 · 25-04-2005 05:17AM

Thaed wrote:

Sorry dont mean to be picky but...

'an it harm none, do what you will' is not a blessing but the Wiccan Rede.
This the guide by which wiccans live thier lives and judge their actions.
'

AND just change that to "do what thou wilt, shall be the whole of the law" and you have the one and only commandment of Satanism ( a widely misunderstood spiritual expression, by the way) :cool:

Prayer

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