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Decentralisation

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  • #662
    uncivilservant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭uncivilservant


    Some observations on the latest report of meeting of the Decentralisation sub-committee of General Council, which was released by the PSEU today (http://www.pseu.ie/docs/Decent26.doc)

    1. It appears that what were previously understood to be CAF "expressions of interest" in decentralising have magically become full applications.
    In the case of departments which are decentralising in full, each member of staff in Dublin who has not applied to decentralise with their existing or another department will be invited to indicate where they would like to go.

    In the case of departments which are decentralising in part, each member of staff in Dublin who has not applied to decentralise with their existing or another department will be asked whether they would be interested in volunteering to move out of the department and, if so, will be invited to indicate where they would like to go.
    (emphasis mine)

    Furthermore, the two paragraphs quoted above appear to indicate that those staff that have "applied" to decentralise will be not be asked to "express an interest" in a Dublin relocation. Curious.

    2. The idea that staff remaining in Dublin could request transfer to specific geographic locations has been well and truly knocked on the head:
    Each department will provide the individuals concerned with a list of all departments remaining in Dublin . This will outline the existing Dublin office locations for each organisation but it will be made clear to staff that they will only be able to apply for a department and not a specific location. If a person is interested in a specific location, s/he may apply to move to that location after moving to the new department and the matter will be dealt with in accordance with that department’s normal internal procedures.

    Interesting times.


  • #663
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    uncivilservant wrote:
    2. The idea that staff remaining in Dublin could request transfer to specific geographic locations has been well and truly knocked on the head:

    So, someone from Rathfarnham could apply to move to Revenue on the basis that Revenue is staying in Dublin & would then be assigned to Revenue's Ashtown office from where they could apply to be moved to a city-centre office? Seems like anyone with a preference to work in the city centre should only select from departments that only have city centre locations or run the risk of being assigned to somewhere awkward.

    Which department in Dublin should webmasters, DBAs, Unix Admins, middleware designers or programmers ask to move to?


  • #664
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    NewDubliner wrote:
    Which department in Dublin should webmasters, DBAs, Unix Admins, middleware designers or programmers ask to move to?

    Pretty much any Department- as they are likely to be reassigned to purely administrative duties....... :(


  • #665
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    smccarrick wrote:
    Pretty much any Department- as they are likely to be reassigned to purely administrative duties....... :(

    Would that be before or after they handed their job descriptions to the suits from A**enture?


  • #666
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    NewDubliner wrote:
    Would that be before or after they handed their job descriptions to the suits from A**enture?

    Pretty much irrelevant really.......
    Look whats happening in the Dept. of Agriculture.....


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  • #667
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    smccarrick wrote:
    Pretty much irrelevant really.......
    Look whats happening in the Dept. of Agriculture.....

    What's that? I must have missed a story somewhere.


  • #668
    Gael
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,286 ✭✭✭Gael


    Ok I think the vast bulk of us agree that the current governemntal decentralisation plan is a joke. I want to know how you would do if if given the task. How would you change the Dublinocentric development of this state?
    Build a new capital?
    Move the capital to another city?
    Create new regional bodies/assemblies with specific power and put them in place of the various county councils?
    Let your imagination run wild, but please make resonable recommendations that would actually be enforcible and that wouldn't bankrupt the country.


  • #669
    Sleepy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,603 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Build any new government offices outside of Dublin.
    Sell the more valuable government buildings and relocate the staff to new offices built with the proceeds of the sale.

    TBH, I think the government are making an arse of the decentralisation but I don't think the civil servants have any right to complain about being relocated.

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  • #670
    Gael
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,286 ✭✭✭Gael


    Sleepy wrote:
    Build any new government offices outside of Dublin.

    Could you be more specific?


  • #671
    Sleepy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,603 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Should any government department need to expand, or should a new department be created it's offices should be built in the regions as opposed to in Dublin.

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  • #672
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Sleepy wrote:
    but I don't think the civil servants have any right to complain about being relocated.

    Why so?
    Sleepy wrote:
    Should any government department need to expand, or should a new department be created it's offices should be built in the regions as opposed to in Dublin.

    The 'Legal Aid Board' was exiled to Cahirciveen......
    Ivana Bacik:...... For example, the decentralisation of the Legal Aid Board to the hometown of then Minister for Justice, John O'Donoghue has been nothing short of a disaster. There are now effectively two headquarters for the Legal Aid Board, one in Cahirciveen and one in Dublin. The costs associated with this nonsense are significant and suburban Legal Aid Centres in Blanchardstown, Tallaght and Finglas are now faced with closure.

    Decentralisation should not be about 'anywhere but Dublin'. It should be a question of 'right office in the right location'.

    Shouldn't the location of a new office take account of convenient access for its customers and the availability of a pool of suitably experienced and educated staff?

    The public service is already decentralised, there are many offices already operating outside of Dublin. Why is it necessary to relocate more offices how much will it cost financially and in human terms?

    I think we need to know the answer to this question, before we can imagine a scheme that will work.


  • #673
    uncivilservant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭uncivilservant


    Am i the only one to see the irony of creating a new, separate thread on decentralisation when there's a perfectly good one here?


  • #674
    Sleepy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,603 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    NewDubliner wrote:
    Why so?
    Equity. No one in the private sector could do anything about it if their boss decided to up and move offices to the ar$ehole of Leitrim, I don't see why public-sector employees should be pandered to simply because their unions are mafia like.

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  • #675
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Sleepy wrote:
    Equity. No one in the private sector could do anything about it if their boss decided to up and move offices to the ar$ehole of Leitrim, I don't see why public-sector employees should be pandered to simply because their unions are mafia like.

    So, just because some private sector employers have no respect for their staff, the government should behave in the same way?

    Would the private sector move a business away from its customers and away from the human resources it depends on?

    If you want discuss the best ways to decentralise, lets first ascertain the reasons why we should decentralise and start from there.


  • #676
    Sleepy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,603 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Why we should decentralise is clear: if done properly it would save taxpayers money and reduce the over-population problem in Dublin.

    It's not a lack of respect for anyone, it's the modern world. If you don't like it, get a job somewhere else.

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  • #677
    ishmael whale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭ishmael whale


    Sleepy wrote:
    Why we should decentralise is clear: if done properly it would save taxpayers money and reduce the over-population problem in Dublin.

    You are right that if there were benefits to be obtained from decentralisation civil servants should co-operate. However, decentralisation as proposed will simply increase costs to the taxpayer and make no impact on regional development. These points have been well gone over in the thread below.
    Gael wrote:
    How would you change the Dublinocentric development of this state? Build a new capital? Move the capital to another city? Create new regional bodies/assemblies with specific power and put them in place of the various county councils?
    .

    I think there’s two aspects to this – the political and the economic.

    If you mean what’s the best way of promoting economic development outside the Dublin area, then the answer is essentially along the lines of the National Spatial Strategy. What causes growth to centre on Dublin is its economies of scale. We therefore need to promote concentration in a small number of alternative regional locations. In the past we’ve attempted to spread development to every town with the result being, as we see, no centre emerges that can compete with Dublin.

    If you mean how best to delegate political power from central government to local authorities, then we might first question the use of the term ‘Dublinocentric’ as, while hosting the seat of Government, Dublin as a location has not really carried any particular weight in determining the political agenda despite it share of national population and resources.

    If you are interested in seeing local authorities being empowered to develop and implement their own policies, then clearly moving the capital, or scattering government offices about, achieves nothing. Empowering local authorities to raise their own finances and making them responsible for more services would.

    Decentralising the taxation function is vital because otherwise whatever a local authority adopts as its policy is subject to whatever funding is allocated by central government. This means that authorities tend to simply advocate expenditure for their own areas, without any particular thought as to whether the expenditure is actually what they need – e.g. Western Rail Corridor.


  • #678
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Leave them as they are, no decentralisation and the cost would be zilch :)


  • #679
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Sleepy wrote:
    Why we should decentralise is clear: if done properly it would save taxpayers money and reduce the over-population problem in Dublin.

    How could such a measure (even done 'properly') reduce the over-population in Dublin? For this plan to function, somebody else has to buy the offices and houses vacated by the people you want to evict.
    It's not a lack of respect for anyone, it's the modern world. If you don't like it, get a job somewhere else.

    Very troll, minister.


  • #680
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    gurramok wrote:
    Leave them as they are, no decentralisation and the cost would be zilch :)
    If I was in government I wouldn’t see it as spending money, it’s just giving something back to my friends who just happen to be builders.

    Really thought, if I was in charge of any organization that was planning to move loads of staff away from their current homes, families, friends, and community, I would first consult my staff.


  • #681
    shoegirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,074 ✭✭✭shoegirl


    Simple. I'd break up the current administration into 5 groups and move 4 of them even to Limerick, Cork, Galway and Waterford respectively. It makes most sense to relocate to the cities, where the infrastructure is ready and its easier to hire and get people to move towards.


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  • #682
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    uncivilservant wrote:
    Am i the only one to see the irony of creating a new, separate thread on decentralisation when there's a perfectly good one here?


    it has been decentralised


  • #683
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    of course since most of the civil servants dont live in the city centre but in the suburbs of dublin and beyond
    they could just move the departments closer to where the civil servants actually live ie out to the suburbs

    which would cut down on the traffic entering the city centre in the morning and leaving in the evening

    of course they could try discussing it with the civil servants themselves


  • #684
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Some departments have already decentralised to the suburbs & those locations have been very popular with those in their catchment area. It might not work for specialist offices where losing staff and retraining others could be hugely disruptive and expensive.
    cdebru wrote:
    which would cut down on the traffic entering the city centre in the morning and leaving in the evening

    Until new people start work in the vacated city-centre offices......

    The 'decentralisation will solve Dublin traffic problems' argument (first put forward by FF), is total nonsense.


  • #685
    ArthurDent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 915 ✭✭✭ArthurDent


    cdebru wrote:
    it has been decentralised


    Classic :D


  • #686
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    cdebru wrote:
    of course they could try discussing it with the civil servants themselves

    You know- that is almost a novel idea.......
    Pity there has been no meaningful discussion of any nature whatsoever.

    Can we get this thread merged with the other decentralisation thread- it makes no sense to have two of them?


  • #687
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    NewDubliner wrote:
    What's that? I must have missed a story somewhere.

    Sorry missed your reply there....

    The DAF IT staff have effectively been handed an ultimatum (there are a few of them around here, feel free to correct me on any points).
    Essentially- DAF IT functions in Wexford have been outsourced to Accenture already- including suppressed AP positions.
    As for the Dublin staff- they have more or less been told to move to Maynooth as a prelude to a move to Portlaoise, if they wish to stay in IT at all, otherwise prepare to be reassigned to purely administrative posts (not necessarily in DAF).

    Consternation is rife. You know the HEO SA position which came up in the Department of the Taoiseach, I've heard there is the highest ever number of applicants for the position- and it doesn't close until Tuesday. Almost 400 applicants for a single position- must be a record?

    Now lets stop this nonsense of two threads and get Gandalf to merge them for us?


  • #688
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 22,785 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    smccarrick wrote:
    Can we get this thread merged with the other decentralisation thread- it makes no sense to have two of them?
    Done


  • #689
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    smccarrick wrote:
    Sorry missed your reply there....
    Essentially- DAF IT functions in Wexford have been outsourced to Accenture already- including suppressed AP positions.
    As for the Dublin staff- they have more or less been told to move to Maynooth as a prelude to a move to Portlaoise, if they wish to stay in IT at all, otherwise prepare to be reassigned to purely administrative posts (not necessarily in DAF).

    Does this mean that DAF is using decentralisation to purge the remainder of its IT staff so that Accenture can get control of DAF IT and then run it from Dublin?

    I hear the average Accenture footsoldier is charged out at 800/1000 euro/daily & the profits go to a company in the Cayman Islands?


  • #690
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    NewDubliner wrote:
    Does this mean that DAF is using decentralisation to purge the remainder of its IT staff so that Accenture can get control of DAF IT and then run it from Dublin?

    I hear the average Accenture footsoldier is charged out at 800/1000 euro/daily & the profits go to a company in the Cayman Islands?

    Well, the SG in DAF is allegedly mightily fond of decentralisation- and the new Minister has already earmarked a few positions for rural Donegal, actions speak louder than words. To be totally honest- I very much doubt that there is a conscious effort in place to purge the IT staff and outsource them to Accenture- more a case of making the most of a situation they find themselves in. Something to keep in mind- is the unions themselves actually advocated this decentralisation- it was specifically requested by the CPSU and the PSEU in submissions to government 6 years ago. They have far more members down the country who will benefit from increased mobility and promotional prospects than they have members in Dublin. People don't seem to realise that over 2/3 of the civil service is already scattered around the country- DAF itself being a case in point- with over 80% of its staff in over 70 different locations already.

    I'd reiterate my previous postings- its political, but with the compliance of the unions (perhaps with the exception of the AHCPS etc)- and the Dublin staff have very much been hung out to dry.

    Was looking at the transfer requests in the backs of the CPSU and PSEU rag mags during the week- they make very interesting reading!


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  • #691
    RicardoSmith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,259 ✭✭✭RicardoSmith


    Sleepy wrote:
    Why we should decentralise is clear: if done properly it would save taxpayers money and reduce the over-population problem in Dublin.

    It's not a lack of respect for anyone, it's the modern world. If you don't like it, get a job somewhere else.

    Thats true. But in the current scenerio, you'll lose all the business knowledge and skills that were in place, replace them with contractors at 3 times the cost, which we'll all foot the bill for in our taxes. Outsourcing rarey means better services. So ultimately you'll be getting less services and paying more for them.

    Then of course all those offices which are decentralised will have to travel up and down to Dublin and across the country. Thus increasing costs further. Then you'll have even more people commuting all over the country where there isn't the infrastructure to cope with it. So your going to be creating traffic problems all over the country.

    You would not get a private company moving to a location that cause all these problems and costs for itself. I wouldn't be able to justify it or even afford it. So comparing it to the private sector is pointless.


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