Cash game hand from Samba's home game.

Lafortezza · 27-02-2005 07:05PM #1

Ok the exact details of this hand are a bit sketchy in my mind so here is what I remember.

My mate Foxy is in MP.
DapperGent is in MP2.
DeVore is on the button.

Preflop: Blinds 25c - 50c
Foxy raises to €5. DapperGent raises to €20. Devore on the button pushes all-in for around €55. Foxy pushes for about €40.
DapperGent needs to put €30 more into the pot to win around €115. Slightly less than 4/1 odds. He deliberates and calls with pocket 5's.

This hand caused a nice vociferous drunken conversation about whether or not it was a good call by Dapper, given the pot odds and the likely hand ranges of Foxy and Dev given the way the prefop action went. Dapper and henbane were of the opinion that while not a fantastic call, it was still an acceptable call and probably +EV.
Myself and DeVore and Samba thought it was a terrible call.

I won't post the results yet, firstly cos they aren't really relevant to whether it was a good call or not, secondly I want to hear peoples opinions first.

Hectorjelly · 27-02-2005 09:13PM

In most games the person in De Vores position is folding every hand bar AA or maybe KK, so unless your getting better than 4-1 its a bad call, however In a game where somebody is reraising a early position raiser to 40 BB's with 55 then Im pretty sure that this is a call, albeit a marginal one.

If Devore hand range is limited to AA or KK then its a fold, as Dappers equity is about 18%

If its quite loose, and importantly if it includes AK and AQ, its a clear call, as dappers equity is about 25.% Obv any player affects the EV the same but he has shown the most strength.

The only way that this is a terrible call would be if both De Vore and 1 of the other players had quite a small range of possible hands.

RasTa · 27-02-2005 10:05PM

Sounds like classic drunken poker! There is no way i would raise to 20 quid with 55 but after doing the raise that big i would of called it

DeVore · 27-02-2005 10:14PM

What if my range of hands is AA-TT + AK (which is pretty much what it would be, and in fact, I might well drop AK in that situation, though not on that table that evening).

DeV.

DeVore · 27-02-2005 10:28PM

I'm confused, what equity are you refering to HJ?
It goes:

Foxy: Raise to 5
Dapper: Raise to 20
Me: All In
Foxy: All In.
Dapper: ???

Theres no folding equity and Dapper has us both covered. Its a straight up math question once he decides the odds of either of us holding a pp higher then 55 and if so what his odds of a set are (with us also hitting a set).

DeV.

Hectorjelly · 27-02-2005 11:20PM

DeVore wrote:

I'm confused, what equity are you refering to HJ?
It goes:

Foxy: Raise to 5
Dapper: Raise to 20
Me: All In
Foxy: All In.
Dapper: ???

Theres no folding equity and Dapper has us both covered. Its a straight up math question once he decides the odds of either of us holding a pp higher then 55 and if so what his odds of a set are (with us also hitting a set).

DeV.

His equity in the pot. If he has a 20% equity in the pot he will win 1 in 5 times denoted as 1:4.

Hectorjelly · 27-02-2005 11:34PM

DeVore wrote:

What if my range of hands is AA-TT + AK (which is pretty much what it would be, and in fact, I might well drop AK in that situation, though not on that table that evening).

DeV.

Then its a call as his equity is about 22%

DeVore · 27-02-2005 11:49PM

sorry, thought you meant folding equity.... I always refer to that as "pot odds" but you say tomato and I say call.

In the end of the day he was getting 114 euros from the pot for a 30 euro wager as I recall. Its an easy mistake to fall into actually, his reraise UTG+1 isnt a terrible move and neither is the call when he lands himself priced in but looking at the whole hand it looks like dreadful play with 55! It was that kinda night. Foxy's hysterical and repeated all ins for anything up to 110 euro on a 25/50c blind UTG was the hall mark of the night. After doing it literally half a dozen times he did it and Henbane called him with 55 to his JJ and tripped up on the river!
5's were bad beats for me too, as enda rivered one for a full house and rossa for a straight. Also Omaha was a laugh when i bluffed everyone off the pot (including LaFoldEasy with AAxx) having paired the top card (an 8). Hey! I had a Jack kicker!

DeV.

Samba · 28-02-2005 08:54AM

Henbane actually had pocket 3's on that hand.

How many inside straight draws were filled for €140 pots? The madness..... oh the madness....

Personally I would have droppped the 5's as unless you hit your set you are in a bad way against two overs or High pockets.

But as 20 was already in there you gotta be thinking, eeek got some committment to this pot

DapperGent · 02-03-2005 03:35PM

Hmmm, this is a little like someone posting up pictures from when you were drunk.

Anyway, I actually like this call better now than I did at the time. My feeling at the time was that the holdings were:

Foxy: Any two cards.
Dev: Any two half decent cards.

I felt Dev knew as well as I did that Foxy was raising with utter trash and wanted me out take him on heads up or have him fold. I don't think he needed good cards to do this as I had been raising with trash all night.

I felt that Dev's range of hands included AK, AQ, AJ, possibly AT and KQ. As well as any decent pocket pair. The time I took call wasn't to put Dev on cards but to figure out if it was worth a call with that range. My head was fuzzy.

Anyway I think (think) Foxy had 96o, Dev has 1010, me spikes set for monstrous pot.

This was at the sweet spot of drunkeness. A got steadily more drunk and eventually called Davey Devil's all in with mid-pair and a J high flush draw on the turn for most of my chips.

Great night of poker though!

Davey Devil · 02-03-2005 03:55PM

Foxy had A,Q.

Lafortezza · 02-03-2005 04:07PM

Foxy had AhQh, I knew as you should have that Foxy only had €5 invested in the pot when DeV went all-in for €50, after Dapper had reraised to €20, but foxy still pushed his €40 into the pot instantly. You have to put him on at least 2 picture cards, I put him on AK.
He was stoned but not *that* stoned.

Samba · 02-03-2005 04:11PM

Just curious but would you consider it to be a great call if you didn't hit your 5? As quite frankly if you did not, you were in a world of pain.

Yes you had Pot odds, that does not mean you throw hand odds out the window tho, just my view on the hand.

Would you play the hand over and over again and call every time? It is my suspicion that this call each time would not be very profitable in the long run.

jem · 02-03-2005 04:36PM

Having read this tread, while there was pot odds you wern't pot committed.With 2 all in before you and just a small pair in your hand, I would probably have folded, while you might be a coin flip with one all in the likelyhood of you being substancially behind one of the two of them. You effectivly had only two outs. I would have folded.

Lafortezza · 02-03-2005 04:44PM

Can anyone do one of those new-fangled mathematical calculations on this question? Use poker-kettle or whatever its called.

Marq · 02-03-2005 04:49PM

anyone want to have a homegame this sunday? just wondering, not like i'm offering to host one or anything.

Waylander · 02-03-2005 05:09PM

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

296,082,864 games 3.190 secs 92,815,944 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 43.1000 % [ 00.43 00.00 ] { 55 }
Hand 2: 24.6838 % [ 00.24 00.01 ] { AQs }
Hand 3: 32.2162 % [ 00.31 00.01 ] { AKo }

Waylander · 02-03-2005 05:11PM

Was not sure what hand Dev had so I allocated him AKo. I do not think it was a bad call, particularly if Foxy was playing that loose all night.

Hitman Actual · 02-03-2005 05:41PM

Using Poker Calculator for the hands given:

55: 18%
AhQh: 38.5%
TT: 43.5%

And I think the the pot is 120, with 35 required to call (is this right?), which gives EV of (0.18 x 155) - (0.82 x 35) = -0.8 i.e. -EV.

But given the possible holdings of the other players:

55: 31.25%
Devs hand => AA-99, AK-AT, KQ: 47.5%
Foxys hand => random! : 21.25%

Equity = (0.3125 x 155) - (0.6875 x 35) = 24.0625 i.e +EV

I think this is correct... any errors?

Hectorjelly · 02-03-2005 05:52PM

Samba wrote:

Just curious but would you consider it to be a great call if you didn't hit your 5? As quite frankly if you did not, you were in a world of pain.

Yes you had Pot odds, that does not mean you throw hand odds out the window tho, just my view on the hand.

Would you play the hand over and over again and call every time? It is my suspicion that this call each time would not be very profitable in the long run.

What are hand odds? If you are getting pot odds to call then you will make money in the long run.

Samba · 02-03-2005 06:01PM

Hand odds are that you will hit a third 5 1 in 8.

Are you suggesting that everytime you are holding 23o and you get "pot odds" you call? and will win more money in the long run?

If you encountered this situation 10 times in a row with the same hands but different flops you are honestly telling me Hector that you will be in profit?

I find it hard to see how you will make a profit in the long run, please do point out to me how you will make money with this call every time? I am curious.

bohsman · 02-03-2005 06:10PM

Youve got to remember that Samba is currently trying to decide which will win more often in 60 40 situations, lets leave it a while before talking about pot odds

Hectorjelly · 02-03-2005 06:13PM

Samba wrote:

Hand odds are that you will hit a third 5 1 in 8.

Are you suggesting that everytime you are holding 23o and you get "pot odds" you call? and will win more money in the long run?

If you encountered this situation 10 times in a row with the same hands but different flops you are honestly telling me Hector that you will be in profit?

I find it hard to see how you will make a profit in the long run, please do point out to me how you will make money with this call every time? I am curious.

The fact that you are getting pot odds means that it is a profitable call, if you werent getting pot odds it wouldnt be. Thats what pot odds means. Pot odds means that you can enter many pots even though your chance of winning might be quiet slim, because the payoff is much bigger than the amount you have to stake. If I gave you a dice and said Id pay you $10 every time you rolled a 6 for a $1 stake would you take it?

This is a slight simplication becuase technically getting exact pot odds means that the call is neither profitable nor lossmaking.

In the situation above, dappergent was getting such great odds for his last few euros that it was only a slightly bad call if one of his opponents had an overpair. The mistake he would make by calling against an overpair would of been less that the mistake he would make by folding the only pair.

bohsman · 02-03-2005 06:16PM

Its 1 in 5 that you will hit across the board and the board is laying you at least 5/1 from what I can see without doing the math.

So yes if every time the pot is giving you 5/1 or better you call you will make money in the long run, maybe not over 10 hands but long term yes

Samba · 02-03-2005 06:38PM

I understand precisely what Pot odds are. I prefer to also consider the strength of my hand when it comes to pot odds and 55, is not a hand I am calling my entire stack with no matter how good the pot odds are.

Samba · 02-03-2005 06:44PM

Show me the math how this is profitable over a long period and I will accept that it was a good call.

Sorry Oscar, how much was it you lost last time I was talking to you?

Can I also reiterate that Tom was holding 10 10........

bohsman · 02-03-2005 06:59PM

No Idea Samba but Im well up for the year think my biggest losing night was 500 so possibly 500?

Anyway the maths of it goes like this, you will hit trips which should win you the pot one in five times, so for every five times you stick your money in you will win more than five times what you put in. This is also known as pot odds

Davey Devil · 02-03-2005 07:15PM

Would I be right in saying the raise to €20 is the bad play in this series of events? Foxy raises to €5 and Dapper goes to €20 with 5's?

I know it was Foxy but I'm never raising to €20 with about 4 players still to act behind me. If Dapper had of flat called the €5 then Tom goes over the top for €55, then Foxy calls - now Dapper makes an easy fold.

Isn't that better poker all round?

bohsman · 02-03-2005 07:25PM

From the looks of it there wasnt exactly a lot of good poker played, I dont like the rereraise by Tom with 1010 either

DapperGent · 02-03-2005 08:14PM

Davey Devil wrote:

Foxy had A,Q.

. 96o must've been a different hand.

Davey Devil wrote:

Would I be right in saying the raise to €20 is the bad play in this series of events? Foxy raises to €5 and Dapper goes to €20 with 5's?

I know it was Foxy but I'm never raising to €20 with about 4 players still to act behind me. If Dapper had of flat called the €5 then Tom goes over the top for €55, then Foxy calls - now Dapper makes an easy fold.

Isn't that better poker all round?

Absolutely.

I could also been completely mistaken about the range of hands Dev could have reraised with. Maybe it was only AK and TT-AA, I don't think so though, it was a messy game.

Also Samba, are my KEMs in your gaff?

Samba · 02-03-2005 08:38PM

I believe Luke has them.

O.k the pot Dapper won was 150 approx. 100 of this is profit.

He calls 5 times to the tune of 250

So you stand to make 150 1 in 5 at a cost of 250.

Can someone please point out how this is a profitable call?

Have I forgotten somthing in my very simplistic calculation?

Because to me that looks like a loss.

Oh yes, the 10s will also hit.....

Cash game hand from Samba's home game.

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