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What to look for in a MA instructor?

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 223 ✭✭dabhal


    Ouch, you stole my thunder boo hoo poor me,

    Anyway,
    Things to avoid first:
    Closed club (Won't let you view training sessions even after personal request)

    Registration Fees (I'm understand they may be necessary but I think they should only be applied after a few months when you have made a commitment)

    No proof of insurance (I'll bring it in next week or it has to be sent from England)

    No proof of grade (it was lost in a house fire or I’m the last living sifu of this art are classics)

    Attitude/feel of a club (When you enter a club you should feel welcome and accepted, If some Black Belt is strutting around like he’s god trying to make you feel small, get out or kick his ass in sparring :D )

    Unwilling to train (If your instructor won't train, leave)

    Have Fun (no point otherwise, unless you a sado masochist)

    Things to look for:

    The opposites of all the above plus:
    You should get on with your instructor.
    Clean hall dojo.
    Ability to adapt training if called for.
    Should be able to demonstrate what they preach. (The days of the old wise man are gone)
    Should have a healthy outlook on self-defence and should teach you to run in the event of a fight. (If possible)
    Should explain the risks of training to you.
    Should make sure that you are not overpowered by themselves or other students.
    Should be taking steps to ensure your safety in class. (Proper safety gear, keeping training within your limits)

    Can't think of any more right now but I'm sure everyone has ideas.

    Dabhal


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    Dabhal pretty much covers everything there.


  • Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Heres some I think are pretty important warning signs for an instructor!


    1) You should be allowed to train with whoever you like regardless of styles or clubs. The instructor doesnt feel threatened by other MAs and doesnt restrict you accordingly!

    2) You should be treated as an equal by your instructor.

    3) You respecting your instructor shouldnt be based on their grade or title but on their performance and on their behaviour.

    more to come!


  • Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sorry to get all copy and pastey here lads but this is from the SBG Florida website. The myths of MA instruction. I think it covers a lot of what to avoid in an instructor.

    from www.onedragon.com (some excellent articles there btw!)

    Commonly held myths and illusions about teaching martial arts

    Myth 1: You must use honoring titles such as Sifu, Guru, Sensei,.... in order to maintain the proper sense of respect in school. This is one of the most pervasive habits in the martial arts, and goes back to the military style of training we will discuss later.Your students should be quiet and respectful when you are teaching because they are there to learn and genuinely respect you, not because they have to refer to you by a title from a different language. The kind of students who are impressed or motivated by these types of titles are not the kind of students we want at the gym.

    Myth 2: You must teach your classes by having your students line up and grunt acknowledgments in unison. This myth long associated with the more traditional martial arts (and is worming its way into the JKD family) steams from teaching methods derived from military. What most traditional Japanese martial arts consider to be Budo training methods, are nothing but. During the era of Samurai and warrior class of Japan, men and women trained in a very efficient, aggressive, and by today's standards what would be considered "informal" way. When World War II broke out Japan no longer had an exclusive military class. What they were in need of was a large military force. In order to create such a force soldiers would have to be drawn from all segments of society. The Samurai who never needed to be yielded at or prodded to train for combat, were replaced by merchants, farmers and tradesmen. Budo (the warrior way) was replaced by drill sergeants, straight lines of soldiers repeating the same moves in unison, yelling, titles of rank and a military style of teaching designed for people who were thought as too inept to learn the traditional way. It is time to throw all this away! There are better ways to teach!

    Myth 3: You must not give your students too much information, too fast, because "if you sell all the merchandise on your shelves no one will come back to the store". This is perhaps the stupidest myth associated with "martial" arts. It may apply to a teacher of forms and techniques, but should never be a concern to a Fighter. If it is then you lack the most valuable commodity a JKD man and woman can have, Imagination. How can you run out of an art that has no limitations?! If you believe this asinine myth, quit JKD now. You are in a wrong occupation!

    Myth 4: You must teach a lot of information at once or your students will get bored. This myth is true if you are teaching a crop of students who measure their progress by the accumulation of techniques and the size of their note books. "I was taught movements and concepts from Rickson Gracie in the art of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu two years ago that I am just beginning to apply and use now. Imagine if I logged those movements in my notebook and then said to Rickson 'OK, I know these now .... show me more'. I am sure he would just laugh. However, with arts such as Kali and Jun Fan students learn a double stick pattern, or trapping combination, and then quickly request more variations and techniques to add to their notebook. The attitude of 'I have 27 double stick patterns and you only have 12' becomes common. The thought 'can I apply any of this?' does not seem to even occur." Matt Thornton. When teaching people who are interested in learning how to fight, it is not necessary to teach a million techniques. teaching the basic well and showing drills for their application will always be greeted with enthusiasm. The seminars of Rickson Gracie prove this point.

    Myth 5: You must not associate with your students in an informal way or they will lose their respect for you. The kind of students who would lose interest in training because they realize that their instructor is a mortal human being, is not the kind of students we want at the Straight Blast Gym. You must know your students well in order to motivate them well.

    Myth 6: You should refer to people differently depending on whether they are "senior" or "junior" in your art. This myth demonstrates the dramatic difference between the beggars humility and warriors humility. The beggar will bow down and scrape the floor for any man he deems to be greater than him; but at the same time he will demand that any man he deems to be lesser, bow down and scrape the floor for him. The warrior bows down before no man, and allows no man to bow down before him. At this gym we must strive for the humility of warrior and shun the humility of a beggar.

    Myth 7: In martial arts men's and women's classes must be separated. There is nothing more away from the truth than this! The primary goal for training the martial arts for most women is not competition, it is self-defense. They want to be able to stop or divert a potential aggressor (usually man) in "street-fighting" situation. Training with women might be a nice social or athletic event and gives good fitness conditioning, too, but from the point of view of self-defense against an aggressor - man, it is useless. Why? Simply because men are usually larger than women and they don't fight the same way as women do. So, to develop skills useful in real "street-fighting" situation, women have to train in similar conditions - with men. There is also an important factor of psychological conditioning. Women training with men are not going to panic or be impressed by a larger size and aggressiveness of the male aggressor. They have seen this many times before!

    Myth 8: Women should not grapple, especially not with men. Well, this is more a question of a personal choice, first of all. In martial ats there are many men as much as women who enjoy the long-range combat (punching, kicking...) but who don't like to be in close (trapping or grappling) range with their opponents. That's fine. But there is one thing which makes it different for women. As said before, most women do martial arts in order to gain some experience in self-defense. Attacked by a man, there is much higher probability for a woman to be taken to the ground than there is for a man. That's a simple question of size and strength. And in that situation it is of crucial importance for a woman to know how to defend herself. When fighting with a larger and stronger male on the ground, the use of proper technique is her only chance to escape or even save her life. The technique does not come by itself, it must be learned during the realistic training. So, grappling with larger male partners has its important place in women's MA training. Many women realize that and would like to learn some basic ground fighting. However, there is something else to stop them. The society. The common view of any closer contact between two opposite sexes as something which should not be encouraged. Well, grappling is a close contact, there is no doubt about that! Any woman (and, by the way, any man, too) can feel uncomfortable in such a close range the first few times. But, as she (or he) progresses, she finds very quickly that in martial arts people are not divided to men and women. All of them consider themselves "only" as human beings on their way to find and improve themselves. The martial arts way is the way of respect for each other.

    "In the long history of martial arts, the instinct to follow and imitate seems to be inherent in most martial artists, instructors and students alike. This is partly due to human tendency and partly because of the steep traditions behind multiple patters of styles. Consequently, to find a refreshing, original, master teacher is a rarity. The need for a pointer of the way echoes. " -Bruce Lee


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭Colm_OReilly


    Colum, You're training with someone behind my back! :eek:

    He's right in the sense you should be allowed train anywhere, regardless of style. It can only be a learning experience.
    Should explain the risks of training to you.
    This is actually a legal requirement. Also, instructors shoud screen to make sure the applicant is able to take part in any sort of exercise.
    No proof of insurance (I'll bring it in next week or it has to be sent from England)
    I've only ever had about two or three parents (never any adults) question my insurance. They've only ever asked whats-the-story type questions, and never asked to see the cert.

    I've been thinking lately about ma's compared to other sports and how they view instructors/coaches. To me it seems that in every other sport no-one asks what level the coach is at (and there are coaching levels), where he competed, who he learnt from or anything like that. The questions and comments that arise are more along the lines of "what can he show me?" "Can he improve my performance/help with this area of my game", "he can really get the most out of you", "he makes you feel relaxed in competition" etc.

    Strange? No?
    Colm


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    :) Theres a saying: "Some coaches can't play the game"

    I could walk into a gym or school tomorrow and be impressed wih cert after cert hanging on the wall, or lineage that goes back years. But at the end of the day, if he can't show me what to do..... whats the point?

    If I had a kid who wanted to join say, soccer, I wouldn't look at the coach and see what he looks like as a player, I'd look at the rest of the kids and see what their skill level was, were they having fun etc. I know that martial arts is a different kettle of fish, but why shouldn't the same principles apply? My mates boxing coach is 50+. He can't fight, and he didn't really when he was younger, but he's the business. I know, I've worked with him.

    That said, martial arts are a real grey area. There are so many cowboys out there that you probably need some of the excellent checks the lads listed above to be sure. I'd like to think I' pass!!! :D

    By the way, off topic, did you know you and I met this morning Colm? :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭memphis


    Dadhal sums up pretty well above, but I just wanna add, I would always recommend that you try a few training sessions with am instructor first, at least that way you can decide whether he is the business, and worth training under.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    Right, I don't know if this is going to provoke an argument, but those myths are a load of codswollop. Any instructors I've trained with in TKD treat you as equals. One of my best friends actually happens to be my instructor who's 10-15 years older than me. He's also a very sound man.

    I hate seing those myths posted around the place because they give the impression that all traditional based martial arts are like that. Yes we line up at the start of the class, and at the end, but that's it. Yes we have lines according to grade, but there has to be some order. After that we all intermingle.

    Old-fashioned instructors who behave like that don't have students anymore, thanks be to God. As my instructor told me one me "When we were learning TKD, we went through badly organised systems with powermad instructors, and that's why we don't run our classes like that."


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,308 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    dudara, columok was saying the myths are a load of "codswollop", me thinks.

    Its like a PC. You wouldn't buy a PC for €2000 unless it was brand new, state of the art spec. But there are still mom & pop business's who sell outdated PC's.
    What I'm saying is, unless you know, you may think "this is the way things are done", and not question it, unless someone else shows you otherwise, and that the "old way" is a really old way...!

    =-=

    That said, I did a small (3 weeks) bit of training in my locality (Leixlip). Trainer dude was very good. Did warm-up, then split into two groups. Little people (primary schoolers, I'd say), and big people (teenagers and adults). Trainer dude would then show us the move, and then let us do it. Monkey see's, monkey does. He'd walk around, and maybe give another example, or give constuctive critism (instead of Y, do X) to the beginners (me & a few others). Was nevr bored, as he'd do a different one each week, but with the same basic's at the start, which was still cool.

    Me thinks the trainer dude was good, because he taught a few of the best (ie; people who went to, and won, compo's). Forget his name. He did/does training in the Amenities (in Leixlip)on Saturday's.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 224 ✭✭paul moran


    Hey Colm
    "in every other sport no-one asks what level the coach is at (and there are coaching levels)"

    I think this is down to the fact that anybody can hire a hall for €10 an hour and set up a club! No coaching certs, no government recognition, no standards what-so-ever neccesary.

    Even the Eastern Europeans require all their sporting coaches to hold a coaching qualification in an Olympic sport. The MA Coaches I know from over there mostly qualify as boxing coaches before they can teach Martial Arts, unless they are teaching Judo, TKD etc (ie Olympic sports!)

    IMAC are running Coaching courses through the Sports Council and I recon this will be the thing to set IMAC affiliated clubs (as well as AKAI and those organisations who have their own RGB!) apart in the future and will help to alleviate the concerns of those looking to get involved or get their kids involved in the Martial Arts. Something all of us out in the cold at this time should think about!?!?

    btw. Angelo Dundee had very little "fighting" experienced but is probably the best ever boxing coach the world has ever known?!?!?

    Paul Moran


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 259 ✭✭PJG


    Hi the_syco,

    Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like your talking about the bushido club in leixlip. Having trained in a few places the bushido clubs are all run very well. One of the sure signs of a good club is the numbers that turn up every week. On one Monday night (juniors and seniors on at the same time) I counted 50+ kids and 30+ adults all working hard and having fun. You can train to keep fit or train to compete with no pressure. They run similar clubs in clondalkin, celbridge, lucan and cork all with the same ethic.

    So if you want to check out an instructure go check out a few sessions and make an informed decision yourself.

    Cheers
    Paul G


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭pma-ire


    PJG wrote:
    They run similar clubs in clondalkin, celbridge, lucan and CORK all with the same ethic.

    Is this Liams place in Cork or is it someone else??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭pma-ire


    PJG wrote:
    They run similar clubs in clondalkin, celbridge, lucan and CORK all with the same ethic.

    Is this Liams place in Cork or is it someone else??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭pma-ire


    pma-ire wrote:
    I don't have time to put on my checklist.

    But will do tomorrow ;)

    Due to the Board not being available, and a few personal issues I had to handle. I did'int get to do this. But I agree with what has been posted so far ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭pma-ire


    paul moran wrote:
    I think this is down to the fact that anybody can hire a hall for €10 an hour and set up a club!

    Interesting :eek:

    Where is this hall ??

    And do they have any slots free at the moment ?? :p:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 223 ✭✭dabhal


    pma-ire wrote:
    Interesting :eek:

    Where is this hall ??

    And do they have any slots free at the moment ?? :p:D


    Most community based halls don't charge very much.
    Paul Moran's point about no certs etc is right on the money and explains why I don't recommend using an instructor who can't perform themselves.
    I know in boxing it works but there are just too many cowboys out there in the MA world.

    Dabhal


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    Like I said before, the students would be the ideal selling point in an ideal world. Obviously there are a lot of cowboys out there trying to make a buck, so you're right Dabhal, performance is probably the best indicator a prospective "buyer" (for want of a better term!) has.

    As Colm alluded to, certs and qualifications hanging off the walls might be impresive to look at, but theres really very little you can do to verify them. I know of a "master" who bought said title after training a few months in the given art.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 224 ✭✭paul moran


    Hi,

    When I talk about qualifications, I don't mean a bunch of certs or badges which only refers to the style being taught at that school, I'm talking about coaching badges that transcend all styles and sports. IE how to get the members/stylists/fighters into the best shape possible in a safe a stuctured manner. How to measure performance? How to manage injuries? etc etc etc. These are achievable if the work is put in, but most MA clubs don't talk to one another and not all organisations are prejudice free, so these courses are not always available as an option to all clubs!

    The skills of the sport or the style should be a given if the instructor can back-up the concepts of the style.

    Paul Moran


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    I'm talking about coaching badges that transcend all styles and sports. IE how to get the members/stylists/fighters into the best shape possible in a safe a stuctured manner. How to measure performance? How to manage injuries? etc etc etc. These are achievable if the work is put in, but most MA clubs don't talk to one another and not all organisations are prejudice free, so these courses are not always available as an option to all clubs!

    Ta Da! The problem in a nutshell! I don't see it as solvable anytime soon either. The IMAC body started out on that line, got government recognition and then............... nothing. Plus, they were representative of a segment and others were unwilling to get on board.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,995 ✭✭✭Tim_Murphy


    Roper,
    You're talking about IMAC as if it's a thing of the past, I didn't think that was the case?
    Incidently, who are the TKD representatives in it?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 223 ✭✭dabhal


    Roper wrote:
    I know of a "master" who bought said title after training a few months in the given art.

    Amazing, he was stupid enough to train for a few months
    I could have printed one off for him :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    http://www.taekwondo.ie/ (IATA I think) are the TKD reps as far as I know Tim. I didn't mean it was a thing of the past, but nothings been heard from them for a while and from what I know they are unwilling to consider things like MMA as part of martial arts in Ireland.

    Damn, Dabhal, can you get me a Master... eh.....hood? I'm already a minister of my own religion and I could do with something impressive to hang on the wall.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,995 ✭✭✭Tim_Murphy


    they are unwilling to consider things like MMA as part of martial arts in Ireland.
    Thats the no rules cage fighting thing isn't it? No wonder they won't consider it. Does anyone know, have people tried to get it accepted into IMAC?

    Originally Posted by PJG
    They run similar clubs in clondalkin, celbridge, lucan and CORK all with the same ethic.


    Is this Liams place in Cork or is it someone else??

    The bushido clubs are point fighting and probably some light contact as well. I think the club in cork is run by Colin O Shaugnessy (sp?)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 259 ✭✭PJG


    pma-ire wrote:
    Is this Liams place in Cork or is it someone else??


    Hi,

    No, the instructor is Colin.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    I think there may well be some confusion here between Bushido Kickboxing www.bushido.ie , as run by Roy Baker et al., and Bushido-Rings www.bushidoireland.com the MMA event taking place in March in the point.

    Though I'm probably confused too....... :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,995 ✭✭✭Tim_Murphy


    There's also Bushido Gendi run by Mick Dunleavy and Pat Lynch


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭pma-ire


    Tim_Murphy wrote:
    Thats the no rules cage fighting thing isn't it? No wonder they won't consider it. Does anyone know, have people tried to get it accepted into IMAC?




    The bushido clubs are point fighting and probably some light contact as well. I think the club in cork is run by Colin O Shaugnessy (sp?)

    Ah Sh*t ya !

    I know Shauks !!

    We used to work in the Keg nightclub yonks ago together.

    I've seen his promos around the city. One ended up in work one time! Don't where it came from. Another TKD guy, he was always into full contact kickboxing and the likes. Hav'int seen him in ages though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭pma-ire


    Just looking back over this thread. I notice a mention about coaching training for MA instructors. Mainly from a sports council side of things.

    In my experience, the type of training allowed by these type of groups are low impact stretching and the likes and are not really benifical to the Martial Artist in any code. It would be good if the sporting MA's got together and developed a safe code of practice in this regard and presented it to the Sports Council. If they got it passed then it would be a better option for MA'ist to go as it would be done with them in mind.

    Another thing that I have seen over the years. Is MA clubs really pushing the sport or under age parts of the club to qualify for a grant or the likes. Selling there soul for a few bucks. :mad: Wrecks my head :mad:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 223 ✭✭dabhal


    pma-ire wrote:

    Another thing that I have seen over the years. Is MA clubs really pushing the sport or under age parts of the club to qualify for a grant or the likes. Selling there soul for a few bucks. :mad: Wrecks my head :mad:

    I know of such a club, but I consider it a kids community group rather than MA. there are no real ma guys there just a few posers. It keeps the kids amused, only problem is these guys think they know what they are doing and are putting childrens health and safety at risk. I won't go into the parents wasting money, like I said it keeps the kids amused.
    They seem to be more of a cubs group than anything else.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    I'm not too sure about this lads. To qualify for a grant from the sports council or any Government body you have to have certain requirements in place. One of these would almost certainly be a formal coaching qualification. (not an internet one!)

    Theres more of a danger from somebody selling real awesome martial arts with guarunteed self defence and packing their school that way.


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