Nice to see Ireland is also a coward.

bugler · 30-03-2001 08:40PM #1

Reading The Guardian and other papers during the week,the Mid-East situation looks increasingly grim,to say the least.There are plenty of posts to digest on the topic already,but mine relates to Irelands role in it all.Didn't think we had any? Read on.
Originally from The Guardian:

"The US has enraged Palestinians and other Arabs by killing off a UN security council resolution that would have opened the way for international observers to be sent to the Middle East.Palestinians, who have been pushing for a UN force to help protect the civilian population of the west bank and Gaza condemned the US announcement,the Israelis thanked the US.

Ok,haven't got to the Irish connection yet,stick with me.
Why do Israel not want observers in these areas? Would it have anything to do with their butchery in said regions?

Heres the bit that gets me:

James Cunningham,the chief US representative to the UN, said the US had vetoed the resolution because it "is unbalanced and unworkable and unwise".

Of course where Israel is concerned "unbalanced" actually should read as "fair and equal".
The Irish link? Well as you may know Ireland got a seat on the UN security council for the first time recently,this was hailed as a great honour.Of course people forgot to say that it is worthless really.
Look, from Guardian:

It(the suggested formula)called for the setting up of "an appropriate mechanism to protect palestinian civilians,including through the establishment of a UN observer force". The vote was nine to one with four abstentions.The non-aligned countires were joined by Russia and China.Britain,France Ireland and Norway abstained.

Good to see we know our place.After all where would we be without all those invested dollars?! Or is it just that we don't care about civilians being killed/humiliated/brutalised? You think from history we would know better.
Give up your security seat Ireland,its worthless.
Just to mention for those not familiar,the US can knock down any such motion at will. The wonders of the UN, eh?

DadaKopf · 30-03-2001 09:24PM

I think Ireland's abstention from the Security Council's vote has more to do with the state's position of neutrality rather than any sense of cowardliness. The Irish army is recognised as an effective peace keeping outfit, which generally becomes involved in crises after the 'hot' conflict. Ireland makes it clear that military interventions are through the UN only and are peace keeping actions, not crisis management like Nato, which is a more involved and offensive form of peace enforcement (RE: Kosovo).

It's a fallacy to think that neutrality is written into our constitution but it is nevertheless a traditional feature of state foreign policy and is unlikely to change. It is a change which politicians (and citizens) are unwilling to make and this decision to abstain from the vote shows not cowardliness but a stalwart decision preserve an important value.

It's not that Irish politicians are conscience free when they see atrocities in the middle east, it's simply that Ireland's vital yet precarious position in this regard must not be misinterpreted. Actions speak louder than words - not the other way around.

"I collect spores, moulds and fungus."

bugler · 30-03-2001 09:48PM

Action would have been supporting the introduction of a UN force.Though symbolic essentially,Ireland should have voted for it IMO.
I have a rather grim view of our "neutrality".
You see,I remember seeing US military planes stopping off to refuel etc in my town from my bedroom window back during the gulf war.
Forgive my cynicism then.

Paladin · 30-03-2001 09:53PM

Its called politics. Yes they abstained, but what gain was there in voting for? America veto it on their one vote because they are a permanent member of the securicy council. Whats the point in openly going against them, when as you have said, they have a lot of companies investments etc. in Ireland.

So you could see it as cowardly, but that is politics. Fight the battles you can win (or at least influence).

pol · 30-03-2001 10:11PM

"but what gain was there in voting for?"

Do you really need to ask this question?
What's the point in voting if you think you'll lose. - justice, honour and the abilly to stand up and speak for those how do not have a voice on the international stage.You're only point is that we will lose money if we had of voted against. People who spoke out against hilter's germany's also losed money.

Kali · 30-03-2001 10:32PM

Just to mention that Ireland have had several dozen troops on duty with the UN in the Middle East for the past few years, the situation for a long, long time now has shown no signs of coming to and end.. if they wanted to send in "international observers" they would have already done so.

The US just want an ally in the Middle East and Israel is a prime candidate, remember Bush has a few scores to settle with Iraq and Saddam.

Paladin · 30-03-2001 11:11PM

What's the point in voting if you think you'll lose.

Im not sure you are aware how the UN security council works.

If ANY one of the 6 permanent members (USA, UK, France, China, Russia, Germany) votes against, then it is not passed (whatever it may be). Decisions for action MUST be unanimous.

So its not a case of "not voting if you think you will lose". Its a case of knowing your vote means squat, so best reserve it for a more useful time.

Im not saying this is my opinion. Im simply saying this is the politics of the situation.
Hell I rekon its as gutless as the rest of you (politically speaking that is, not even gonna touch on the soldiers pov, cause i dunno what that is), but it is the way of politics.

You're only point is that we will lose money if we had of voted against. People who spoke out against hilter's germany's also losed money.

Umm. Bah I cant be assed. Im not trying to make points, mentioned another guys point is all, comparisons to Hitler are very out of context (although with Bush Im not so sure:-/).

pol · 30-03-2001 11:22PM

"Bah I cant be assed. "

Oh sorry you must be right then.

bugler · 30-03-2001 11:32PM

Irelands troops were in southern Lebanon,which cough,israel had been occupying illegally according to the UN.Though strangely there were no moves to remove it from the region.

You may stand back and say "fu<k it,what can we do?" if you want, but i'm not happy to sit back while the US once again bullies the whole UN.The UN security council is effectively in the US's a-rse pocket,partaking in it is worthless if you don't tow the line.This has been going on for aslong as there has been a UN.
No decent minded person with respect for human life should be in doubt as to whos side they should be fighting for here, it belongs to those who would like organised and systematic abuses of human rights to be exposed and prevented.

Next time a suicide bomber blows up an american warship,and all the claims are of a "terrorist" attack, stop and think.Are the terrorists those who attack the armed forces of an oppressive and hostile foreign power?Or are they the ones who allow abuses and injustice to reign free in the name of money?

amp · 30-03-2001 11:32PM

Jaysus, can't I read a post on this board without seeing Hitlers name? What is this, some kind of conspiracy? Huh?

Hey! It must me those guys that faked the moon landings!

hmmmm Fake moon landings.... Hitler....

Brb... I feel a troll coming on.

Lunacy Abounds! Play GLminesweeper!
art is everything and of course nothing and possibly also a sausage

Paladin · 31-03-2001 01:58PM

Originally posted by pol:
"Bah I cant be assed. "

Oh sorry you must be right then.

Ah ffs get off my back. I wasnt trying to make points. Im agreeing with ure point of view not reputing it. Just telling it the way it is. I dont like it but sh|t happens, not my fault.

And yes, I am right in saying that even if Ireland voted, it wouldnt have changed what happened

(*note for those who enjoy misinterpretation* This is NOT my opinion, its the sh|ty way polotics is that the most powerful country in the world has the most influence)

Clintons Cat · 31-03-2001 07:22PM

didnt the un recently try to reform the status of the permanent members of the security council?trouble was in order to pass the motion they needed the unanimous vote of the permanent members...kind of a catch 22 situation really.

*picks up pie*
btw hitlers face can be seen clearly behind the visa of the astronaught helmet on the moon.i am suprised no one has mentioned it previously,oh and the moon buggy is really a striped down VW.
So next time someone asks why hitler was great...now you know.

Nice to see Ireland is also a coward.

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