Liverpool take 4th!!!

The Rooster · 13-05-2004 02:27PM

They did their best to avoid it all season, but in the end, Newcastle just wanted it less.

Bang on Mr Angry!

Other than the top 3 the standard has been very poor this year - and even Chelsea and the mancs have had a good few very bad days.

Liverpool are 28 points behind Arsenal who are top.

Liverpool are 26 points ahead of Leeds who are bottom.

So it is true to say they are closer to bottom than top, and its goina do my head in to hear Houllier going on about how well he's done this year and how he achieved his objectives.

Its been a purely pathetic performance by Liverpool over the course of the season, and its just pure and utter luck that the rest of the teams were just as bad / even worse. It would be a disgrace if Houllier kept his job after such a poor season - especially as it followed a poor season.

The year Liverpool finished second was the year Houllier was out sick for most of it. Though many would argue the previous year was more successful given they won the treble and finished 3rd. One thing for sure is that its all gone downhill since Houllier regained the hotseat.

PS Don't ban redspider!

Space Coyote · 13-05-2004 03:21PM

originally posted by NBM
...he does have an incredible eye for talent, with La Tellac, Pongolle, Baros proving good buys. For every Traore and Biscan, remember that he's also brought a lot of quality to our side.

No no no no no! That is the problem, GH has brought in way more rubbish players than quality players. See below...
Houllier's signings
Jean-Michel Ferri: £1.7million from Istanbulspor - December 1998
Who? Exactly. Houllier brought this defensive midfielder to Anfield as his first signing. He picked up an injury shortly after his arrival from Turkey, but even when fit he looked well short of the required quality. The French international made only two substitute appearances, in defeats at Chelsea and Sheffield Wednesday, before being shipped to French side Sochaux in the summer.

Rigobert Song: £2.6million from Salernitana - January 1999
Song came to Anfield from Italy with a good reputation as a solid defender and was a fixture in the Cameroon side. He began well and became something of a cult hero on the Kop. But Houllier insisted in playing Song at right-back rather than in his favoured position in the centre of defence. Song played just 38 games for Liverpool before they almost recouped the transfer fee when he was sold to West Ham in November 2000. He was shocking for West Ham and is now in Ligue 1 with RC Lens.

Frodde Kippe: £700,000 from Lillestrom - January 1999
This Norwegian defender was heralded as a real star of the future when he moved to Liverpool - the Reds had pulled off a real coup in securing his services. Rather than being a Kippe, he was more of a red herring. He made just two substitute appearances for Liverpool in the League Cup before twice being loaned out to Stoke City. He left the club a year ago to return to Lillestrom for a nominal fee.

Djimi Traore: £550,000 from Laval - February 1999
This is an interesting one. Signed ahead of interest from AC Milan, Paris St Germain and Lazio, Liverpool can consider themselves to have got value for money on the transfer fee. Traore has been a fixture in the starting eleven this term after spending most of the 2001/02 campaign on loan at RC Lens. However, Traore looks anything but the real deal and Liverpool would be unlikely to win the championship with him in their defence. The French player has now made 59 appearances for the Reds.

Sami Hyypia: £2.6million from Willem II - May 1999
Hyypia will almost certainly go down as Houllier's best signing, a snip at £2.6m from Dutch side Willem II. A superb, assured defender and a commanding presence, the Finnish international would slot into probably any defence in the Premiership. Houllier handed him the club captaincy a year ago, and he has now played over 200 games for the Reds.

Stephane Henchoz: £3.5million from Blackburn - June 1999
Henchoz was rescued from life in the Football League by Houllier after Blackburn dropped out of the Premiership, and he soon forged a superb partnership at the heart of the defence with Hyypia. Henchoz has been worth every penny in his 174 games for the club - with the added extra of a few cheeky handballs when the officials aren't looking!

Sander Westerveld: £4million from Vitesse Arnhem - June 1999
Westerveld may have been Houllier's number one at Anfield for two seasons, but he was prone to errors - in keeping with the great tradition of Liverpool goalkeepers! Houllier made him the most expensive goalkeeper in British football when signing him from Holland, a tag he certainly failed to live up to. Although he certainly had ability, he came over-priced after the gaffe which led to defeat at Bolton in August 2001 was the final straw and he was sold to Real Soceidad.

Titi Camara: £2.6million from Marseille - June 1999
After a half decent first season at Anfield, in which he scored ten goals and only trailed Michael Owen in the club's scoring charts, Camara was discarded by Houllier after 18 months. West Ham again came to the rescue by giving Liverpool most of their money back, playing only 11 Premiership games for the Hammers before being loaned out to Al-Ittihad in January.

Vladimir Smicer: £4.2million from RC Lens - July 1999
An incredible fee for a player of such limited ability, Houllier had hardly found the replacement for Steve McManaman. But Smicer remains a manager's favourite and is invariably in the 16 on a matchday. Smicer has many critics on the terraces, but he still earned a new three-year contract last summer and now, remarkably, has played 142 games for the club.

Erik Meijer: Free from Bayer Leverkusen - July 1999
Liverpool fans can only be pleased this misfit striker didn't cost any money, because he was a complete failure in his 17-month spell at Anfield. The Dutch player scored just two League Cup goals in a total of 26 appearances before being loaned out to Preston North End, where he scored no goals in nine games, and then released to join German side SV Hamburg.

Dietmar Hamann: £8million from Newcastle - July 1999
The final signing of a £25million summer transfer frenzy for Houllier, Hamann has been a valuable player since making the move from Tyneside. But at £8million, then a club record, the German international was probably over-priced for a defensive midfielder.

Emile Heskey: £11million from Leicester - March 2000
At the time this transfer was the worst kept secret in English football. After netting 22 goal in his first full season at the club, Heskey has struggled. A fee of £11m for a striker who doesn't score goals is excessive to say the least, although the player has suffered from being played out wide at times. The England international has scored just six Premiership goals this season.

Bernard Diomede: £3million from Auxerre - July 2000
Another mystery name with a big price tag, Diomede has a World Cup winners' medal from France '98, you know. But he is now back home with relegation candidates AC Ajaccio after being loaned out in January. The French winger has played just five games for Liverpool, only two of those in the Premiership.

Markus Babbel: Free from Bayern Munich - July 2000
Houllier was very unlucky with Babbel. The German veteran had a fine first season at Anfield, but was then sidelined after developing Guillan-Barre Syndrome. This affects the central nervous system and means you are unable to use your limbs properly. He did make an emotional return in the Community Shield in August but is yet to play this year.

Gary McAllister: Free from Coventry City - July 2000
McAllister was a superb Bosman capture by Houllier. Although used as a substitute for much of the time, his goals were priceless as Reds picked up five trophies in 2001. The lure of the manager's job at Coventry proved too strong last year, and Liverpool have failed to replace his experience and guile in the centre of the park.

Pegguy Arphexad: Free from Leicester City - July 2000
Signed as a back-up keeper and, despite a brief loan spell with Stockport County, first team football continues to elude him.

Nick Barmby: £6million from Everton - July 2000
Barmby's move across Stanley Park caused a storm at the time, but his two years at Anfield were barely worth the bother. After a useful first season a combination of injuries and Houllier's selection policy limited his involvement and last summer he joined Leeds United, at almost a third of the cost.

.....

Space Coyote · 13-05-2004 03:22PM

.....contd

Gregory Vignal: £500,000 from Montpellier - September 2000
Despite getting a few first team games under his belt over the course of the last two years and looking a useful player, Houllier cast him aside at the beginning of the season. Vignal is now out on loan in France with Bastia.

Christian Ziege: £5.5million from Middlesbrough - September 2000
For all the trouble this caused, Ziege was effectively a waste money. The two clubs are still arguing about the way in which Liverpool went about luring the player to Anfield. Ziege started just 11 Premiership games before being sold to Spurs after just one season.

Daniel Sjolund: £1million from West Ham - November 2000
The Finland Under-21 international was signed as a player for the future but has failed to make the grade, and is now on loan at Djurgarden until the end of the season.

Igor Biscan: £5.5million from Dinamo Zagreb - December 2000
How much! Biscan must be one of the worst players ever to turn out for a club of Liverpool's stature; in fact he would struggle to make a impression in the First Division. Houllier paid a ludicrous amount of money for the Croatian defender/midfielder. Biscan has made 23 Premiership appearances in almost two-and-a-half years.

Jari Litmanen: Free from Barcelona - January 2001
Criminally underused by Houllier, Litmanen could have contributed so much more to a Liverpool side that has often looked short of a creative influence. The Finnish striker returned to former club Ajax after making only 12 Premiership starts.

John Arne Riise: £4.6million from Monaco - June 2001
Leeds United must wish they had stumped up the cash for the player when they had the chance a year earlier, as Riise has taken to the Premiership with great aplomb. A pacy, skilful wing-back or midfielder, Riise has lived up to his price tag in a big way. He was strangely underused at the start of the season but is now a firm fixture in the side.

Milan Baros: £3million from Banik Ostrava - August 2001
It could prove to be an astute piece of business by Houllier, although he lost a whole year as the old rules on non-EU players meant he couldn't get into the first team squad. Looks a lively player and should develop into a top striker, given time.

Jerzy Dudek: £4.85million from Feyenoord - August 2001
Signed to replace Sander Westerveld, Dudek had a brilliant first season, but started this term badly and was to blame for a number of goals - most notably the opener in a 2-1 defeat to arch rivals Manchester United. He is only back in the side due to Chris Kirkland's injury but looks to be getting back to his best.

Chris Kirkland: £6million from Coventry - August 2001
After paying such a lot of money for a back-up goalkeeper, Kirkland was handed his chance due to Dudek's inept performances. However, a cruciate ligament injury sustained at the start of the year put him out of action. Houllier spent nearly £11million on two goalkeepers on the same day - completely unnecessary and it was almost as if he was trying to stop any of his rivals signing Kirkland.

Nicolas Anelka: On loan from Paris Saint Germain - December 2001
Eyebrows were raised when Houllier opted to against making his loan move permanent, and Anelka himself was far from happy. The French striker was never prolific during his six-month stay, but it was thought he'd done enough after netting five goals. Instead, Houllier turn to El Hadji Diouf.

Abel Xavier: £800,000 from Everton - February 2002
Again a transfer that surprised many, but a good start was the limit of his contribution to the side. Xavier played just 21 games for Liverpool before being loaned to Galatasaray in January. It's hard to see him returning to Liverpool to battle for a place in the team - more money wasted.

El Hadji Diouf: £10million from RC Lens - June 2002
Houllier signed the Senegal striker at the start of the World Cup, and although he would go on to be named in FIFA's team of the tournament he has looked a poor acquisition. The striker has scored only three Premiership goals in 24 appearances for the club, although he has been played out wide at times. He has a lot to do to justify the fee.

Bruno Cheyrou: £3.7million from Lille - July 2002
Cheyrou has been very inconspicuous since his summer move, featuring in 25 games this term. He looks as though he may benefit from a year in the Premiership and come back stronger in the new campaign. The jury is very much still out and the price tag looks a little large right now.

Alou Diarra: Free from Bayern Munich - July 2002
Diarra was loaned out to Le Havre almost as soon he'd joined Liverpool, and as such remains an unknown quantity in the English game.

Patrice Luzi: Free from Monaco - August 2002
A young goalkeeper signed for the future who has yet to feature - currently fourth in the pecking order at the club.

Salif Diao: £5million from Sedan - August 2002
Again, Houllier has broken the bank for a player of limited ability. Although he did start his Anfield career promisingly, he has tailed off in the latter part of the season and looks to be out of his depth at this level.

uberwolf · 13-05-2004 03:32PM

TBH I don't read much into the recouped figures. Fact is he has spent 120 million on players and the team is getting worse. If you look back Roy Evans would always have qualified for the CL under current rules. The money he recouped was for players he didn't want.

As for being a talent spotter maybe, he has brought good players in. But what has he done with them? They don't play, Baros on the bench?

jonno · 13-05-2004 05:27PM

GH was brought in to rebuild a team that was fairly stagnant albeit finishing consistantly in the top four under Roy Evans. But that is all it was doing. There wasn't much hope of it finishing as winners of the much coveted League title. The squad at the time was either getting old or just not up for the task of winning the league.

For example:
David James in goal was very inconsistant. Granted he has turned into a fine keeper but his time at Liverpool showed up alot of mistakes that were occuring week in week out.

In defence you had players like Steve Harkness, John Scales (who wasn't that solid), Phil Babb who cleaned up after Scales, Bjornebye who was solid but not showing much promise, Kvarme who was brutal, Mark Wright and Steve Staunton who were pushing on a bit and Dominic Matteo who was having a similar experience to David James.

The midfield was made up of Leonhardsen, Cassidy and McAteer and neither of the three are exactly league champions material. The only source of promise came from Redknapp, Murphy and Steve Macca.

Up front was probably where the team at the time got its results from. Fowler, Collymore, Owen, Berger and Reidle were all scoring and bringing in the results for a team that relied on the 3-5-2 system because of the lack of decent defenders and they had a failry attacking midfield that could supply the goods.

Fast forward two seasons and we have Gerard Houllier in sole charge. He was given the job of turning the then stationary team into English champions. A big ask - which led to the five year plan. Now the five year plan hasn't worked and at times I myself have asked for Ged's head but the fact of the matter is that he has practically rebuilt the squad from scratch with the exception of Owen, Murphy and Carragher who are still around. It was Ged that gave Stevie G his chance in the first team as well. Along with that he was given the money to recruit. Now I don't have a clue how hard it could be to do a job like this but he set about doing it. Granted he has made his mistakes in the market and bought some dud players. But as far as I am concerned he has built the foundation for a decent squad. Obviously it ain't the finished article yet but IMHO I think there are only a few more steps to making the squad successful.

First of all the only players I can't see much of a future for are:
- Igor Biscan,

- Emile Heskey,

- El-Hadji Diouf,

- Vladamir Smicer,

- Stephane Henchoz,

- Dietmar Hamman and

- Markus Babbel (although I would like to see him given another chance).

The players that Space Coyote's post mentioned as dud players that I can see a future for are:

- Djimi Traore (needs a chance at centre half to progress. Has been solid everytime
he was on the pitch this season and that was in his least favoured position)

- Bruno Cheryou (his runs in the first team this year will do him good)

- Salif Diao (has only played a few games where he should be played and has looked good there)

- Alou Diarra

- Patrice Luzi (who is actaully third in the pecking order at the club despite what might have been said on that website. Every club needs three keepers IMO.Paul Harrsion is the fourth choice keeper.)

Finally GH may have spent 120 million but as I said earlier he has recouped 60-70 (around half of that). Of that list 18 of the 33 have departed. A quick calculation shows that he has got rid of approx half of the players which would kind of cancel each other out. Also he has added Le Tallac, FloPo, Finnan and Kewell to the list for approx 15 million and each of those have big furtures at the club.

So that is why I still don't slate Houllier. He has rebuilt Roy Evans' team into a very solid foundation for the championship, won more than Roy Evans in terms of Silverware (albeit worthless trophies as far as most people are concerned). He deserves credit for what he has done. If he is sacked or resigns he will go down in history for building the foundation of a great team.

That is all

kamobe · 13-05-2004 06:33PM

A few harsh words have been said about Newcastle and Bobby Robson. In fairness, out of all the teams in the top 5/6, they have been hit the hardest with injury. The backbone of their side has been taken away, and no team (including Arsenal) can perform without four or five first team regulars week in week out.

I'm a Liverpool supporter myself, and I'm happy to see the reds in the CL next year. Houllier is REALLY annoying me though. If he spends another £30 million on tripe, not only will he be hurting us next season, but he'll be condemning us to 4th and 5th place battles for the next few seasons. Liverpool aren't quite rich enough to be splashing out that kinda money with no returns.

Space Coyote · 13-05-2004 06:36PM

I don't disagree that GH started off well. His first priority was to sort out the defense which he did extremely well by bringing in Henchoz and Hyypia, and Westerveld, who was a very good keeper. He made about as many mistakes as Cudicini did this season. Our defensive record was solid once they bedded into the side. GH also got rid of a lot of dead wood as jonno pointed out. GH had us playing in a counter-attacking way that infuriated other sides, but it was effective. It got us results. But that didn't last, there was no progression from there. GH's tactics were too easily exploited, the team relied too much on Michael Owen's pace. There were no alternatives because GH coul not come up with any. He bought and sold players, chopped and changed the first team almost every game. He did not have the answers the dip in form. He still doesn't. Players like Barmby, Diomede, Meijer and Camara were bought and sold in a short space of time. Now GH is doing it again. Diao, Diouf and Cheyrou, very expensive yet extremely ineffective, will probably be sold on after less than two years at the club. GH has built the guts of a very good side, but he just does not have the vision to bring us to the next level. That is plainly obvious in my opinion, and it has been for a year and a half. Bring in Steve Morgan, say bye bye to Gerard Houllier. Thanks for the memories. Au revoir.

[edit]I've just read the other thread and looks like Morgan's bid has been turned down. I presume he will pull out now, leaving Thaksin (the Man Utd fan) to ruin the club. I'm off to cry.

[/edit]

mike65 · 13-05-2004 06:52PM

First of all the only players I can't see much of a future for are:
- Igor Biscan,

- Emile Heskey,

- El-Hadji Diouf,

- Vladamir Smicer,

- Stephane Henchoz,

- Dietmar Hamman and

- Markus Babbel

I'd keep all except Biscan and Diouf (unless he was turned into a proper striker)

Djimi Traore (needs a chance at centre half to progress. Has been solid everytime
he was on the pitch this season and that was in his least favoured position)

- Bruno Cheryou (his runs in the first team this year will do him good)

- Salif Diao (has only played a few games where he should be played and has looked good there)

- Alou Diarra

- Patrice Luzi (who is actaully third in the pecking order at the club despite what might have been said on that website. Every club needs three keepers IMO.Paul Harrsion is the fourth choice keeper.

I'd shift Diao, Cheyrou and Traore in double quick time!

Mike.

Jivin Turkey · 14-05-2004 12:31AM

Glad you responded Redspider

"Read the sentence again. Liverpool are NOT officially 4th yet. If Liverpool lose 6-0 and Villa win 7-0, Liverpool are NOT 4th. Fact. That as I said is very unlikely (impossible(!) chance) to happen. Read and try to understand before you respond with “half a brain” comments. Its clear who was using only half their turkey brain."

You say something like this, if I may use some of your own reasoning, then I say Arsenal arent officially the champions. There is a "very unlikely (impossible chance)" that they might be drawn into a brawl in their last game and get docked 20 points. Liverpool are fourth. Im sorry.

"Yes, Liverpool were. Out of the last 5 seasons, it took at least 67 pts to get 4th place and this year Liverpool will be well below that – Liverpool currently have 59. Liverpool were lucky as so many teams played equally badly, and Liverpool were slightly better than the bunch, only very slightly."

Liverpool werent lucky at all! If they were somewhat close to 3rd they would be lucky. But look at the teams challenging with them for 4th. Newcastle, only 2 away wins all year. Villa, much improved but an awful start. Liverpool havnt been outside fourth or fifth since october (bar maybe one week). They have there or there abouts all season and never looked like losing their grip on it. To say they were lucky is ludicrous! It was always between Liverpool and Newcastle. Liverpool just turned out to be the best of a bad bunch, they have been all year (not that Im proud), its not luck.

"I give Bobby Robson a lot of credit for what he has done. But this season the team spirit has faltered. There were “issues” with Bellamy and Shearer. Solano was so imbitterred that he left and took a pay cut. Robert, also one of their best players and motivated at the start of the season, went off the rails ad was dropped. Something (or things?) definitely happened at Newcastle this season as all was not right in the camp. Bobby was dropping players not because they weren’t good enough or were injured but because of other “issues”."

Newcastle have been crippled with injuries all year. Woodgate, Dyer, Jenas, Bellamy, Bowyer, Bridges, that is why they have faltered. There have been a few "issues", but they have been handled impecably. There is no mention of the "roasting scandal" anymore. The only reason they arent coming to anfield with a chance of CL football, is because they have been missing their 2 first choice centre backs for the last 3 games! How would Arsenal do without Toure and Campbell? Look at United without Ferdinand! They also got to the semis of the UEFA cup. They were very unlucky not to win on Sunday, and again last night. That would put them level with Liverpool. Players like Solano was not happy about not being in the team, so he left. There are better players there to replace him.

Sorry to go off on a rant but I want to clear up my points. Its good to see you putting up some decent ones too, instead of pages of writing (I apologise for mine, it had to be with all the quotes) just stating the current situation and all the possibilities.

As for people wanting to keep Houllier! No way! Liverpool "achieved" fourth position this year, fifth last year. Houllier is in the process of cleaning out the second team he has built at the club. It is not good enough for a "big" club. People (who actually make the decisions at the club) settling for this mediocrity have liverpool where they are today.

johnor · 14-05-2004 09:18AM

I reckon take this kinda stuff to PM's..... anyway, As a manu fan im glad that liverpool got 4th, Houllier will stay now

......otherwise they might have got someone good to spend this 50/60 million. I reckon Cheyrou will turn into a decent player too, Himself and babbel should stay imo. I think GH went wrong by calling him the next zidane when he joined....He seems as if he doesnt have the ability to bring these young talents on into the first team....Strange cos he did alot of work in that french camp thing....I reckon his problem is more in that line, he buys young players with alot of potential and turns them into average players...I dont think he is a great motivator....defo not the manager liverpool need. I think liverpool will have a better season next season, dunno if that means moving up the table or just getting more points...they wont win the league which begs the question why give him anther season?

redspider · 14-05-2004 10:00AM

To Jivin Turkey:

Good to see that we can discuss this without flaming (other posters mentioned the “b” word ;-) ).

> … then I say Arsenal arent officially the champions. There is a "very unlikely (impossible chance)" that they might be drawn into a brawl in their last game and get docked 20 points. Liverpool are fourth. Im sorry.

Well, I’m not sure what the FA’s maximum point docking rules are but the chances of your scenario happening is more unlikely than Liverpool’s turnover. Both are very very unlikely. I am sure that Liverpool are 4th, that’s what I said, the turnover wont happen. As we were in agreement on this there was little reason for you to “name call”. I’m over it - and I’m glad that Liverpool are 4th.

> Liverpool werent lucky at all! …. To say they were lucky is ludicrous!
> Newcastle have been crippled with injuries all year .. They were very unlucky not to win on Sunday, and again last night.

Interesting points of argument here. So, you are saying that Newcastle are unlucky. I agree with that. Now follow the logic - since the beneficiary of Newcastle’s bad luck is Liverpool, doesn’t that mean by definition of luck that Liverpool are indeed lucky? Luck is a balanced concept – if for example two teams play a close game and one team scores the winner in the 94th minute, the winner is lucky and the loser is unlucky. I see other posters have mentioned the lucky aspect as well. I don’t know what a poll would show or if you are willing to concede on this point. If you don’t, we can agree to disagree I guess.

> Liverpool havnt been outside fourth or fifth all season and never looked like losing their grip on it

I would think that your opinion on this is very much in the minority. Yes, Liverpool have been around the 4th, 5th, 6th mark in the finishing months. However, at the 10-game stage Liverpool were 10th on 14 pts. Saying that they never looked like losing their grip on it is really looking at the season with rose-tinted glasses. They never created a gap between 4th and 5th in terms of points so it was nip and tuck the whole way. Liverpool could have easily finished outside the top-4.

> Sorry to go off on a rant but I want to clear up my points.

Rants are fine, rant away – but flaming is off-side. I shouldn’t have risen to the "bait".

There are some good points mentioned in a lot of postings on this thread, which I hope to get back to at a later time.

I agree with you JT about Houllier! His time should be called to a halt and now is the perfect time. Much better to do it when we are in the CL so that we can attract a good manager and attract good players. Re-building from a position further down is much more difficult. As I’ve mentioned before, Houllier got Liverpool from a low point (7th, 54 pts) and took them higher (4th 67, 3rd 69, 2nd 80 pts) and the club did progress (eg: in CL) and have success in cups. But I haven’t been happy with his comments and management in recent years and the progress has stalled for 2 seasons (5th 64 pts, 4th 59-62 pts). Houllier has been given his chance imo. It will take a new manager to take Liverpool higher but getting that new manager may not be easy. The kafuffle in terms of Liverpool ownership isn’t helping with the direction of the managerial position.

The Rooster · 14-05-2004 10:10AM

The luck point depends on what angle you are looking at, and redspider and jivinturkey are looking at it from different angles.

IMO:

Liverpool deserved to finish ahead of Newcastle, Aston Villa etc. - No luck involved.

However Liverpool were indeed very lucky in the fact that despite being pathetic for most of the season, Newcastle, Aston Villa and the rest were even worse. Closer to finishing bottom and getting relegated than winning the championship, and still end up in the Champions League. Mad!

Thanx 4 The Fish · 14-05-2004 11:01AM

Is the fact that Newcastle finished so badly after loosing key players down to Sir Bob's inability to maintain a large squad then ? Liverpool suffered from injury problems at the outset of the season but nobody is here saying that the only reason that Liverpool didn't do better is because of their injuries, which is I feel a bit of an injustice. Houllier while doing a bad job for the last couple of seasons has won more at L'pool than sir Bob has at Newcastle and yet there are not as many people calling for the head of sir bobby. Now I know that Liverpool are a succesful club and people want to see that success perpetuated continuously but as it is Liverpool haven't done it, does that mean a clear out of players and the manager which may cause upset to the team and possibly leave us with another barren season or work with what we have and build on it. I am not a manager nor do I work on the board of any major club but in my opinion the upheaval of the all change approach could be more detrimental to Liverpools next season than anything. Liverpool may or may not get rid of Houllier this season but if they do not then it will not be that huge a let down.

Let's face it, so far this season Liverpool have come away with as much as Man U, and if the pool get in the Cl proper then as much as Chelsea with all of their millions too.

johnor · 14-05-2004 11:41AM

What about the FA cup?, dont think manu's season has been equal to liverpools season...Man u were playin in the CL, they would have recieved alot of money from that....Fa cup final, chance to win arguably the best domestic cup competition....I think comparing liverpool to man u and chelsea is a bit silly, chelsea and united can build to their current squad with a view to challenging for the league next year, where as liverpool willbe challenging for the 4th spot again....Even with teh influx of 60m...Cant buy the type of players/number of those players that liverpool need with that money....

kida · 14-05-2004 11:52AM

Newcastles team didn't make CL proper last year.
Newcastles team has declined dramatically this year.
Liverpool barely edged out Newcastle for CL qualifier place.

Draw your own conclusions - all Liverpool have done is made the qualifier.

jonno · 14-05-2004 01:45PM

Originally posted by johnor
Even with teh influx of 60m...Cant buy the type of players/number of those players that liverpool need with that money....

Just for the record how many players do you think Liverpool need? IMO all they need is a right midfielder, a 20 goal-a-season striker and a quick centre back to partner Sami or Carra. 60million would easily cover that. There is also a large squad of players in place with some youth players itching to get a chance.

Dont be at yourself · 14-05-2004 01:50PM

Originally posted by jonno
Just for the record how many players do you think Liverpool need? IMO all they need is a right midfielder, a 20 goal-a-season striker and a quick centre back to partner Sami or Carra. 60million would easily cover that. There is also a large squad of players in place with some youth players itching to get a chance.

We hopefully have the 20-goal-a-season striker in Cissé/Baros. I'd agree with the centre-back (Dawson or Mexes, I'll take either!). I'd like Partridge to be given a chance on the right, but it's certainly a problem area for us at the moment. I'd also want to see a quality central midfielder brought in, Hamann won't be around forever!

We could sort all that out for closer to €30million than €60million!

eirebhoy · 14-05-2004 03:32PM

Just noticed that Liverpool were closer to bottom (26 points) than top (28 points).:eek:

and yes, Liverpool were very lucky to get forth this season just like man City are lucky to stay up with 38 points (possible 41 but WH got mor last season AFAIK).

Thanx 4 The Fish · 14-05-2004 10:49PM

Well by the logic put forward in this thread then Arsenal, Chelsea and Man U are also lucky to do as well as they have. Lucky that they have not had the injuries that Liverpool had earlier this season (5 Key players out) and Newcastle had towards the end of the season (5 Key players out).

How well or poorly you perform against last season has no bearing in this one, if you were champions with the lowest winning total ever, nobody gives a crap as long as you were champions and not too many people care that oftentimes the winners of the CHAMPIONS league were not even champions in their league. What matters is how one performs against the teams in your league, in any given season. Next season (hopefully), Liverpool will be competing in the CL and this will boost them, they will be competing in a League in which all that matters is how you perform in that season against the teams that you are drawn against, I couldn't give a crap if, for example, they lost all of their home games and still qualified for the knockout stages (some might consider that lucky) or if they draw all but two as long as they compete well.

Liverpools will build on this season, no matter who is the manager I believe that there is the making of a great team in there, a V Good defender, a good Holding midfielder (Hammann is knocking on a bit) a good attacking winger although Richie Partidge may have what it takes, he hasn't had much of a shot in the top flight and a striker who matches up well with Owen and there will be a team that will challenge anybody next season. As for this and last year, agreed that they were bad years for the Pool and I will have to say that perhaps alot of that is down to the manager, but it is tough for a manager too, coz when Liverpool win it is a great performance by the team and when they lose, it is a dreadful selection by the manager.

thegills · 15-05-2004 12:47AM

Its all down to confidence lads, and that is something the manager needs to sort out. Hyypia and Henchoz were great last 2 years but crap this year, why?.

Kewell is the perfect example - he was taking players on at Leeds but doesn't at Liverpool. Last season the back 4 had protection in front of them but this season Gerradr tried to play more attacking so the back 4 were more exposed. Changing keepers so often didn't help either.

It seems that the players are 2 afraid to lose the ball so play restrictively; or don't use their full potential. Its no surprise that all the players say that Smicer is a genius in training but is a totally different player when he plays on Saturdays.

At Arsenal and Man U when they win the ball you have 6 players at least tearing up the pitch. When 'Pool win the ball they knock it back to the back 4 and 'find' their shape. By the time they start the attack the other team has 11 players behind the ball. Gerrard, and maybe one or two others probe away but the get crowded out, the ball ends up back with Hyppia who hoofs it up to Owen.

i could go on all night but i think we have the players but they ae not playing as they can or should.

theills

redspider · 15-05-2004 01:15AM

There was a very informative posting which detailed some of the signings under GH (up to Aug 2002) and it makes interesting reading.

> GH has brought in way more rubbish players than quality players.

I think like most managers, there is to some extent a bit of a hit and miss with all signings. Many of the big clubs are either trying to get players signed before the player is successful and expensive or before the player is snapped up by someone else. Most of the big clubs do not do transfers between each other (when was the last time Liverpool sold a player to Man U or vice versa) and there is a level of risk taking. All big clubs are under an extra pressure of usually having to pay more both in terms of the transfer fee and in terms of a player’s wages and bonuses. So, getting good players in is not easy.

Also, players are not easy to judge nor are they consistent or predictable. They can shine in certain surroundings, show good prospects, yet can perform to varying degrees. They can play well at one club, in a certain position, with certain other team members, yet move them into another surrounding or another country with a different culture and weather and they can fall apart. They are moody – they are human. Some are prone to injuries, some are unlucky.

Liverpool have given GH the luxury of being allowed to sign so many players. That list contains a colossal 33 signings - some of the names I didn’t know. Total transfer costs are ukp 101m. However, these are not the only costs to the club. Players must also be paid hefty wages, some are on over a million pounds a year and if a player stays over a few seasons, these costs can amount up to being much more than the players transfer fee. The salary bill in 2001-2002 was nearly eur 70m. And there are agents fees too. Also, there is a practice that when players are put out on loan, only a partial wage is paid by the receiving club (eg: Morientes at Monaco where Real Madrid pay 66% of his wages).

Looking at the list (I don’t know how many players have been signed since), only the following players have had a solid positive impact in their time and can be considered good transfers: Hyypia, Henchoz, Hamann, Babbel, McAllister, Litmanen, Baros. They cost a total of 17m or an average of 2.4m.

The second tier of players would include the likes of: Westerveld, Camara, Smicer, Barmby, Ziege, Riise, Dudek, Kirkland, Heskey, Anelka, Xavier, Diouf. Players that have done ok but not fantastic. They cost a total of 60m or an average of 5m each.

Many of the remainder have contributed little to nothing. Overall, the players that have contributed the most have cost the least, ironically. GH’s strategy does seem to be closer to throwing darts than anything else. Then there is the question of what he does with players in terms of their development. That is always a tricky one to answer. You could say that with the likes of Hyypia and Henchoz he has done very well. Even with Hamann who was sort of lack lustre at Newcastle, he has developed and done well as a player. Perhaps with some of the internally developed players he has also done reasonably well, such as with Gerard who has really blossomed. Owen less so, as I feel there is some tension between them sometimes.

But overall, I agree with the poster that GH has not done well. He has not bought well and its unclear if his strategy of having a huge squad is going to bear fruit. It is part of his well-aired long-term plan but Liverpool have some short-term success needs! Should the policy now be to buy say 3x 10m players or 10x 3m players? I think at this juncture the former is the better approach. However, getting the right 3 players wont be easy and perhaps a bigger investment is needed but I think that should be Liverpool’s aim.

Jivin Turkey · 15-05-2004 01:51AM

Originally posted by redspider
"I’m glad that Liverpool are 4th."

Agreed.

"> Liverpool werent lucky at all! …. To say they were lucky is ludicrous!
> Newcastle have been crippled with injuries all year .. They were very unlucky not to win on Sunday, and again last night.

Interesting points of argument here. So, you are saying that Newcastle are unlucky. I agree with that. Now follow the logic - since the beneficiary of Newcastle’s bad luck is Liverpool, doesn’t that mean by definition of luck that Liverpool are indeed lucky? Luck is a balanced concept – if for example two teams play a close game and one team scores the winner in the 94th minute, the winner is lucky and the loser is unlucky. I see other posters have mentioned the lucky aspect as well. I don’t know what a poll would show or if you are willing to concede on this point. If you don’t, we can agree to disagree I guess."

I understand what you are saying, but I still dont think Liverpool were "lucky" to "achieve" fourth. In all fairness they were better than Newcastle this year, and coped better over the course of the season. What I said was that if Newcastle didnt have such a defensive crisis, they prob would have won their last 2 games and be going to anfield with something to play for. You were hinting towards Bobbys head, and mentioned tension in the camp. Remember they also got to the semis of the UEFA! It was hardly a bad season (although they could still end up 7th)! I would wager that, next season they will really push some teams hard. With Given, Woodgate, Dyer, Bowyer, Speed and Shearer, they have a strong a spine as anyone.

"I would think that your opinion on this is very much in the minority. Yes, Liverpool have been around the 4th, 5th, 6th mark in the finishing months. However, at the 10-game stage Liverpool were 10th on 14 pts. Saying that they never looked like losing their grip on it is really looking at the season with rose-tinted glasses. They never created a gap between 4th and 5th in terms of points so it was nip and tuck the whole way. Liverpool could have easily finished outside the top-4."

In all fairness the 10 game stage was in October. Liverpool have not been out of the top 5 since then, and no matter how many bad results they were putting together, PLUS all the good results Birmingham/Villa put together, they (B'mingham/Villa) never over took them. The only team that "challenged" Liverpool for fourth was Newcastle.

"Rants are fine, rant away – but flaming is off-side. I shouldn’t have risen to the "bait"."

I wasnt baiting you! I enjoyed this discussion, long may it continue!

"I agree with you JT about Houllier! His time should be called to a halt and now is the perfect time. "

Dont say anymore, just sit in hope.

Liverpool take 4th!!!

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