Immigration - Solutions?

"Ireland of the welcomes me arse. We surely have to be the most intollerant and most hypotritical race on this planet. I know many people who left for England in the 50's & 60's to claim social welfare because there was nothing for them here. I also know many today who can't read or write." (Valentia)

Valentia, that is different because even before Ireland and the UK were part of the EU, all Irish citizens were granted automatic British citizenship under the Ireland Act 1949. As such Irish immigrants to Britain were not going there illegally. My point is a matter of law. And anyway, the numbers of Irish people going to the UK, and especially to the US, were hardly going to become a major burden on those respective economies, given how massive they were (and still are) compared to our own economy (British GDP - $1.2 thrillion, USA GDP - $10 thrillion, Republic of Ireland GDP - $150 billion). These other countries' enormous populations and greater wealth ensure they can easily afford the cost of large-scale migration to their lands. The Republic of Ireland is a tiny economy internationally, and as the cake is far smaller there is far less to go around. Hence we see the downgrading of our hospitals as the asylum-seekers (benefit-seekers is a more suitable term) are handed things that Irish immigrants to Britain were never handed, including the taxpayer footing the entire bill for the asylum-seekers' local-authority rent payments, telephone and ESB bills, not to mention free taxi-fares and free driving-tests ( I kid you not!).

"He is now a healthy, vibrant 85 year old, with wisdom to burn. He lived at a time when the Black & Tans raided his house. He is a true Republican and cannot understand the biggotry of this supposedly friendly nation." (Valentia).

Bigotry? Don't be ridiculous. This is NOT about hatred of other races. It is about international-law (The aforementioned Dublin Convention 1981), together with the unfairness of Irish people getting treated less generously than non-EU nationals in our own country (e.g. the asylum-seekers get their LAH rent paid for them - courtesy of the Irish taxpayer - and get fastracked to the front of the LAH waiting list while Irish families have to wait YEARS), and also the fact that the Irish taxpayer is every year more and more being burdened with a taxbill to pay for this unrestricted flow of people. I repeat again Valentia, the Irish economy cannot be compared to the US economy in terms of ability to pay for all these people. The US economy is the largest in the world. My country has a tiny economy internationally. Reading your post, one could almost be forgiven for believing that the Republic of Ireland is the only country in Western Europe where someone can find a better life. The first country that the vasdt majority of asylum-seekers land in is either a Mediteranean country e.g. if you are an African, or Germany, e.g. if you are a Romanian. 66% of asylum-seekers coming to the Republic of Ireland fall into the categories of Romanian and Nigerian. You are also forgetting that at the time the vast majority of Irish people headed to the USA, they were not "asylum-seekers" in the legal sense of the word. Nor were most of them "illegal-immigrants". The USA at that time had a policy of encouraging migration, as they were seeking to populate their vast unpopulated Western regions. The Republic of Ireland is not some vast undiscovered continent that needs to take a decision like that. The first duty of our Government is to find jobs for the 150,000 Irish people that are out of work. If all the talented people leave the Third World then the consequent "brain-drain" will damage the economies of their countries, so we are actually helping them.

Now I will address Vorbis's point:

"arcadegame2004, its hardly a flood in relation to other countries economic migrants numbers. Its a bit ironic, Ireland sends millions off to other countries to work and yet whinge incessantly when a couple of thousand come here."

Vorbis, we are in fact ranked joint second in the EU in terms of numbers of asylum-seekers arriving here per head of population (joint-second with Belgium). Thousands coming to a small country to leave off the benefits-system (asylum-seekers aren't allowed to work remember) stands in stark contrast to the Irish work-motivated migration to other countries - most of which was perfectly LEGAL unlike the asylum-seeking in Ireland today. Also, in a small economy, thousands of asylum-seekers are an equivalent proportionate burden on the Irish economy as much greater numbers going to a country like the UK. Ireland is a soft-touch on asylum-seekers/benefits-seekers. Listen to that Czech woman on Morning Ireland complainin that now her country is in the EU she'll have to work! The cheek ! She effectively admitted what I and many others suspected! We have gone to 6% of our population being non-nationals in just 6 years - a statistic that it took the UK decades to arrive at since the start of their Government's mass-migration policy in the 1950's ( It is currently 7% in the UK ). In that context the term "flood" should not be seen as an exageration.

The continuation of our current laxness on the asylum-issue will only fuel racism because it treats asylum-seekers better than our own people. It plays into the hands of potential BNP/Front Nationale types in this country (who currently have absolutely tiny support among the Irish people as shown from the fact that they won not a single seat in an Irish General Election ). This is actually another reason to crack down on the illegal-immigration into Ireland.

"Immigrants here do Not get what you say. Hardly seems worthwhile argueing with someone that takes hearsay and bigotry as fact, but hey I'll make this one exception." (Valentia)

I am NOT expressing bigotry. Bigotry is hatred of others based on what they are. I do NOT hate other races. I simply want to see the law applied equally to everyone and Valentia, whatever you may say, you know thatyour country has tightened up the immigration-system (rightly) considerably since September 11th. Why should we be any different, especially given the Madrid attacks?

I am NOT a racist and I am fed up of the Irish Left labelling all their opponents on the immigration-issue as "racists etc". Are the rest of Europe racist for not allowing automatic citizenship on the basis of births to asylum-seekers? A racist is someone who hates other races, or someone who assumes some races are superior to others. I abhore such views. But the question is one of the law and of resources. The 350 million Euro paid by the Irish taxpayer to asylum-seekers is a waste of money, going to people who are already having their needs taken care of in another EU country - or would have had they chosen to apply for asylum there. So why then should we not return them to a previous EU country of entry? What is so racist about that? I do NOT hate other races. I merely feel that Ireland has enough problems at the moment without having to spend very large sums of money on a potentially unlimited cost. And I believe I speak for many.

Can you quote where I said that this one womans remarks were "indicative" of a trend? A symptom of a trend is perhaps a better way of putting it. But it is ludicrous to suggest that 10000% increase in asylum-seeking since before 1998 has nothing to do with our growing economy, or to do with the births-for-citizenship rule. Otherwise, why didn't they come here before then? There was already mass-migration of asylum-seekers to EU states then much richer than us such as Germany and the UK remember. Do you want us to end all restrictions on immigration to Ireland?

Spot on Earthman.

Hi, welcome to Ireland!
Here is your RSI number, here's a voucher to stay in Mosney for 6 weeks, heres vouchers for Tesco which should feed you for 6 weeks, here's a list of places currently hiring short-term workers at low wages to get you started.

If you're not sorted out in 6 weeks, get back to us.

Next!

Too easy ?

Just exactly what kind of immigrants do we not want here ?

The ones who will do the jobs the Irish don't want, for pay we wouldn't get out of bed for ?

The highly qualified ones who would give their right arm to be allowed pick up their career in IT/medicine/pharmacy/whatever from where it was blown out from under them in their home country ?

Ireland can de nothing but benefit from an increased workforce who will do a fair days work for a fair days pay. You give them handouts & don't let them work, you're just breeding resentment on both sides.

Originally posted by dathi1
I think we should have the same system as Malaysia and Singapore. Anyone entering illegally will be deported immediately and or jailed. Anyone who wishes to apply for asylum from their host country is welcome to do so. Anyone who wants to work here can apply for work permit subject to the necessary criteria.
All this talk about lag times, special rights, free legal aid, 100,000 euro deportation flights etc...would be history.

i agree totally with you, ireland needs to be in line with other western governments by promoting legal immigration. but all these benefit tourists and bogus aslyum seekers must stop. If they are risking life and limb to come from france over here its obivious they see us as a soft touch. austrialia had to do what they did out of sheer nessity.

also while we are on the topic can anyone confirm or deny these things:

1. asylum seekers get free cars or a large discount on them.
2. asylum seekers get free buggies

Originally posted by spanner
also while we are on the topic can anyone confirm or deny these things:
1. asylum seekers get free cars or a large discount on them.
2. asylum seekers get free buggies

You can find a full list of everything asylum seekers are entitled to here.
As you can see, there's no mention of either cars or buggies.

You may also be entitled to assistance towards clothing when you arrive and to other exceptional needs from time to time. Your CWO will advise you on this.

Buggies could come under this heading, however I'd hardly begrudge them that. Irish citizens are entitled to the exact same.

Originally posted by Ryvita
A small question if they allowed these people to work would you have a problem?

Do you really feel that all these people are leaving their own countries to live off social welfare in Ireland because they are lazy and don't want to work in their own countries? Do you think there's a chance they may be coming from serious poverty and that they are coming to Ireland because they know they'll get a house and be supported by our state? If you were that poor and had children would you not do the same? Would you not want a better life for them if it was at all possible?

I started this thread to discuss a way to better solve the problem with Immigration policy in Ireland. The problem with Immigration policy in Ireland, is that it is creating an atmosphere of racism and bigotry.

Some posts here are talking about these people as if they are cattle that should be herded from one country to another. It IS racist. You see these people as thieving beggars come to sponge off out "tax-payers money".

no one is denying that these people are poor and coming from serious poverty but ireland is a small nation and we cannot be expected to take in a indefinate amount of these migrants. It needs to be controlled. Fair enough stricter immigration controls and immediate deportation of illegal refugees might not be the most ideal way of doing things but dealing with the reality of the situation its the only way.

i think its a typical problem with the irish left, they critise everything but never have any viable alternative

I've just read with interest some of the comments posted on this thread and am heartened by the defence of those fleeing persecution and poverty in search of a better life. Some brief points.

1. The ideas of "citizenship tourism," "welfare scrounging," etc are completely and utterly erroneous, based as they are on ignorance, fear and scapegoating.

Lies such as "asylum-seekers get free cars," a complete untruth, are born out of a racism that is more often than not born out of genuine ignorance. If this so-called abuse of the system was factual there would be clear statistics showing so.

It is a common right-wing approach to any form of welfare provision to claim that the system will be abused. In fact, moving away from people seeking asylum for the moment, studies have shown that the numbers who abuse the dole system, for example, are absolutely miniscule. It is difficult for an adult asylum-seeker to "sponge" on €19, yes €19 a week. Tell me, is it worth leaving your home, your hometown, your home country, your friends, your extended family and all your social connections to "sponge" in this manner?

I grant absolutely that there have been and are some instances of asylum-seekers begging, there have been other instances of asylum-seekers requesting money from CWO's for items or services not included as part of the Dept of Justice, "Equality" and Law Reform provisions. Though given that no asylum seeker is permitted to work, and a person is expected to eke out a living minus food and board on €19 a week, as fellow human beings this is surely understanable?

2. As a society we are not used to seeing those of other colours and races in our communities.

Thus the transition can lead to believing that simply because someone is of a different race and drives a car, then (a) they are an asylum-seeker (given that migrant workers and Irish citizens with multicultural backgrounds are far more prolific than asylum-seekers this is often not the case) and (b) their car was free. Yes, accommodation is provided, as is medical care, during the application process.

Asylum-seekers are entitled to free primary and secondary education (not third level)and, upon application, to child benefit. Add some food and a limited clothing allowance, and, bar the most extreme circumstances, sin sin. There's no dole, no opportunity to work and no opportunity to take vocational training. When those who decry the "benefits" those seeking asylum are in receipt of, they talk of these people coldly and statistically.

Given the very real social and economic deprivation, far more impoverished in the vast majority of cases than many of us can truly contemplate, and far more dangerous in some cases than many of us ever want to imagine, please conceive of those seeking asylum not as immigrants and foreigners, but as fellow global citizens. Almost all of these people come here for a very good reason, and that reason is almost always to seek the opportunity to work and learn and to find a new home for themselves.

3. There is no flood of asylum-seekers into Ireland.

Please see the attached file to see how the levels of those seeking asylum has actually dropped (having problems uploading it - if it doesn't appear please email to the address below to receive a copy). These are the latest statistics available on the Department of Justice, "Equality" and Law Reform website. Less than 8,000 people sought asylum here last year. More people attend Turner's Cross on a Friday night to watch Cork City play than sought asylum here in one year. In fact, there will be ten times as many people in attendance at Croke Park for the All Ireland final than sought asylum here in 2003.

Indeed, the vast, vast majority of refugees and asylum-seekers in the world today come not to Ireland, or indeed to the Western world at all - they migrate to other countries in the developing world because they are often their only means to escape torture, war, extreme poverty and a scandalous poverty that Western governments and big business have done little to alleviate.

The "flood" of those seeking refuge is a myth perpetrated by those crassly and insensitively seeking electoral office or to sell papers (that said, the Irish media have been far better behaved than their British counterparts). They play on the real fears of ordinary people who are on the receiving end of badly-funded public services and government ineptitude. When you can't afford a house and are thrown on a waiting list for months and years, it is a natural knee jerk reaction to note objection to those who are provided with accommodation outside the waiting list system. The real "scroungers" in this regard are the politicians who have been shown to benefit very nicely indeed from deals with property developers to build private houses when social housing has been heavily restricted in the era of the fabled Celtic Tiger beast.

Those seeking asylum are not to blame for the housing problems, or problems with maternity hospitals, but they are still scapegoated by the FF/FF Lite government in a referendum that takes away from all their failings on all manner of levels. Why is there no constitutional right to a home, which would force local authorities to provide housing on a constitutional basis. This is a measure proposed by most of the housing bodies (Simon, Focus Ireland, Treshold, etc) and by opposition parties, but rejected utterly by Mr E-vote himself, Martin Cullen. Instead we have a rushed referendum that will provide a platform for the racists to seek election on and for the government parties to get let off the hook. By changing the constitutional basis of citizenship from one of birth to one of bloodline we are denying the rights of children born here to become an Irish citizen, to contribute to our economy and more importantly to our society.

4. Those who support the referendum or those who advocate a draconian immigration policy are not automatically racist.

Few, if any, will make that argument. However, the issue of race is inherently intertwined with that of immigration. We are a nation who has always emigrated in our masses, but has seen little in the way of inward migration. We still see comparatively few faces of colour or hear tongues other than Gaeilge or Béarla in our streets, but the benefits of multiculturalism are already taking hold - see today's Irishwoman's Diary in the Irish Times for just a taste of how much those from different cultural bakgrounds add to our society.

Denying children equal rights to be raised as Irish citizens, as many parents wish their children to be raised in order for the kids themselves to have a better chance for the future in an unequal world, may sometimes not be racist in its intent but it isn't colour-blind in its implementation. A restrictive immigration policy where the scrutinisation of asylum-seekers cannot truly reflect the very real deprivation and, oft-times, real danger of death on deportation is also racist in its implementation. It is a small-minded, insensitive practice concentrating on some of the most socially excluded people in our community.

The upcoming referendum does not refer only to asylum-seekers. Many of those working and living in Ireland from the USA, Australia, Canada, South Africa, China and elsewhere will not be permitted to raise their children as Irish, as many of those people may wish. But the referendum campaign from McDowell and his ilk has generally focussed on asylum-seekers, again a move that plays on the very real fears, the bastard child of racial igorance, that many people have.

Please vote no in the upcoming referendum, and, if your views are strong on the issue, please email to help get involved in the Campaign Against the Racist Referendum, a broad-based group dominated by no political party, including activists involved in Residents Against Racism, Sinn Féin, Communities Against Racism, the Green Party, NASC, Labour Youth, the Socialist Workers' Party, Workers Solidarity Movement, UCD Students' Union, Trinity College Students Union and the Union of Students in Ireland. My address is
sudevelopment@ucd.ie or you can contact the campaign directly at againsttheracistreferendum@eircom.net

I love the concept of the D4 wishy-washy liberal.

However, I'm a proud resident of Dublin 12, my father a retired postman, my mother a housewife. I get through college on a fairly measly grant and have to work part-time. I'm one of maybe fifteen people who went to college, three of whom got into university from a Leaving Cert class of 57, which originally had been a first year class of some 120. Many of those involved in the CARR are from similar backgrounds, despite the lazy stereotype.

I'm working class and proud of it, not that it bloody well matters.

None of those comments were directed at specific posters on here, but at some of the attitudes in society in general.