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Should YOU decide if you get baptised?

  • 06-04-2004 11:09PM
    #1
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,968 ✭✭✭✭


    On foot of this thread here I thought it might be instructive to learn how boardsters feel about having been inducted into
    a faith without having been consulted first.

    Do you think such heavyweight matters should be left until one is able to understand what is been asked of you? I'll throw in confirmation and communion into this basket as well. Its all part of the same plot er...

    Mike.

    Religious Induction - Should They Ask First? 64 votes

    Yes - Its happening to me. Not them.
    0% 0 votes
    No - Mother, Father and Church Know Best
    76% 49 votes
    Makes no odds one way or the other to me
    23% 15 votes


«1

Comments

  • #2
    secret_squirrel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,354 ✭✭✭secret_squirrel


    My parents decided not to do anything about my relgion until I was old enought to decide for myself.

    Unfortunately the made me go to sunday school so I could make an informed choice :(

    I chose no to religion :D

    Just out of interest isnt the origin of baptism to make sure innocent babies souls go to heaven if they die in childhood? And by that argument isnt it outdated??? (from a statistical point of view of course - since child mortality rates are so small nowadays)


  • #3
    PhoenixRising
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭PhoenixRising


    I'm sure this isn't just confined to Catholicism. Are the children of other religions consulted first ?

    It's an interesting question, and if the answer is yes, and I'd consider myself to be in that camp, then there would be considerable implications for all organised religions. Maybe they're should be an 'opt-out clause' before children make their first communion or confirmation.


  • #4
    Johnny_the_fox
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Johnny_the_fox


    Originally posted by PhoenixRising
    Maybe they're should be an 'opt-out clause' before children make their first communion or confirmation.

    the 'out-out clause' is confirmation... its your choice to confirm if you want to stay a catholic...


  • #5
    PhoenixRising
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭PhoenixRising


    Originally posted by Johnny_the_fox
    the 'out-out clause' is confirmation... its your choice to confirm if you want to stay a catholic...

    I meant something more formal and permanent, which would include the deletion of baptismal records.


  • #6
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Originally posted by secret_squirrel
    Just out of interest isnt the origin of baptism to make sure innocent babies souls go to heaven if they die in childhood?
    Yep. It goes back to believing that people who weren't baptised, but weren't evil, went to purgatory.

    Personally, I would believe that it was a thinly veiled excuse to maintain power by scaring people. The Church used to quite unbelievably powerful. We'd be appalled today if the Church was allowed to do, or demanded to do, half of things it did 50 years ago.
    Having a child baptised, essentially gave the Church a certain amount of power. Devoted parents would be more than happy to follow a priest's guidelines on the best way to educate their child, or how to guide the child morally. If a priest disagreed with a parent's decision, or even believed something bad was the best course of action for a child, people would side with the priest (ever seen The Magdalene Sisters?).The church was as close to a third parent as you could get.
    As the church became less powerful, and outdated, people slowly have become less interested in subscribing. Certainly, I would think anyone born between 1960 and 1990 would be part of the transition group - those of whose parents felt morally and religiously obliged to baptise us, but we feel no such compulsion, and a massive chunk of us don't even subscribe to Catholicism any longer.

    So, after all that, no I wouldn't baptise my children(if/when I have any). I would certainly encourage them to learn about religion and morality in general, but would never ever tell them to join one. Even my own parents now would agree that baptism was not necessary or desirable. It was just the old mindset.
    the 'out-out clause' is confirmation... its your choice to confirm if you want to stay a catholic...
    In theory yes, but it's something that a lot of kids just have done to them like baptism. At 12 years of age, you haven't the capacity to decide if this religion is for you, all you can see is a day off scholl and dollar signs from presents.


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  • #7
    mr_angry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭mr_angry


    I would hesitantly say yes, I should decide what my official religion is. However, I would much rather that was an informed choice. The question is, how do you instill a sense of faith in your child, without indoctrinating them? In order for them to make a really informed choice, you have to let them know what faith really is. Its very difficult to demonstrate without forcing a religion upon your child.


  • #8
    KlodaX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭KlodaX


    someone once told me that I was catholic cause my name was on the register.
    I said I didn't believe in God.
    But the other person argued that it didn't matter... as long as my name was on the list ... God knew about me.


  • #9
    secret_squirrel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,354 ✭✭✭secret_squirrel


    lol I would hope god would know about me whether I was on a list or not ;)

    more seriously Mr_angry comes up with a valid point - for me I came away with a faith but not a religion, which Im pretty happy with, but to be fair both my parents were fairly anti religion so I cant say that I wasnt 'indoctrinated' toward this..even tho I believe my parents let me make up my own mind.....


  • #10
    KlodaX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭KlodaX


    for me I came away with a faith but not a religion,


    faith ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fth)
    n.
    Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
    Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
    Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
    often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
    The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
    A set of principles or beliefs.

    The above is for my own benefit ....
    so if you had not have had religion ... and it was truely God's will for you to belive... would you not have found faith in another way?


  • #11
    rde
    Closed Accounts Posts: 97 ✭✭rde


    Despite the occasional tale of someone searching for the right religion (which utterly bemuses me), most people believe in their own religion. Seems obvious, but it is important.

    If you're a staunch Catholic, it's obvious to you (I would imagine) that the best thing for your kids is to be brought up Catholic. Same is true of any religion. No Buddhist is going to decide that his kids should be baptised; equally, a staunch atheist is going to explain to the kids something along the lines of 'people will believe anything if they're taught it young enough.'

    So, despite being on of the aforementioned staunch atheists, I have to say 'no'. It's up to the parents to decide how to bring up their children, including whatever religious practises that entails. We're all capable of changing our minds when we're old enough (even before that, even if it's only to piss off the parents), and I doubt any child has been psychologically damaged by the act of baptism. Unless it was dropped in the font.


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  • #12
    vorbis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭vorbis


    proably being a traditionalist but I believe its down to the parents. Theres nothing stopping anyone leaving the church. If your parents were catholics and wanted to baptise you, why should'nt they? As I said your're perfectly entitled to leave the church if you feel like it.


  • #13
    KlodaX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭KlodaX


    I agree with rde ... yeah .. thats a good point.

    *I like yer sig aswell btw*


  • #14
    Syth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,865 ✭✭✭Syth


    I often here the argument "What if the parents want their children to be Catholic?" Well what if some parents want their children to be a doctor, and spend the whole childs childhood telling them they should be a doctor and only introduce them to medical subjects, and told them that anything except being a doctor was wrong? Or what if a family wanted their children to be straight and told them that homosexuals were evil, and being straight was the only way to go?

    These are analogies to the 'parent's want their children to be catholic' point of view. Should the parents have the power or right to deciede these issues? If not then the children should not be forced into something so young. Leave it till they are about 20.


  • #15
    martarg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 209 ✭✭martarg


    It has occurred to me that I could not vote on the poll because I don't agree with any of those answers... :) Simply stated, my opinion is "yes", but not because "mama and the Church know best", but because parents have a right to give their children the sort of education they consider best, whether it is as a Catholic, a Protestant, a Muslim, or a Manchester United fan. It is not a big deal if the child as an adult makes his own choice and decides to drop out, as usually happens, I don't think baptism in itself has caused irreparable damage to his life or his personality.... disagreeable experiences with the Church itself and/or any of its members are a different question.... and as someone mentioned before, if children are not educated in a particular religion, it is unlikely they will enter it off their own will as adults. So, I don't really see the necessity to wait for the child to grow up in order to baptise him. There are lots of decisions our parents make for us while we are growing up....


  • #16
    rde
    Closed Accounts Posts: 97 ✭✭rde


    These are analogies to the 'parent's want their children to be catholic' point of view
    I don't think they are. Take the doctor, for example. The first ten years of the child's life won't be a factor in this (unless he ends up watching a lot of Discovery Channel), whereas these are probably the most important with regard to the sprog. And it's not a case of directing the child - to give him doctor-related presents, letting him watch ER, whatever - it's a case of telling him what the world is.

    It's not like he's being told whether to like Coke or Pepsi; to the parent, it's telling him how the universe came about. How he has to live in order to be happy, in this life and the next. These aren't something any truly religious person could find optional; they're vital to the upbringing of the child. You may think they're wrong, and deluding the child. That doesn't matter. They'd feel exactly the same way about you, and you would be just as entitled to ignore their righteous indignation on the matter.


  • #17
    article6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 610 ✭✭✭article6


    Originally posted by martarg
    It has occurred to me that I could not vote on the poll because I don't agree with any of those answers... :) Simply stated, my opinion is "yes", but not because "mama and the Church know best", but because parents have a right to give their children the sort of education they consider best, whether it is as a Catholic, a Protestant, a Muslim, or a Manchester United fan.

    Same thing. The poll just uses a phrase which now has Orwellian overtones.

    I voted for Big Brother Is Watching You, because of many of the reasons Martarg gave. The analogy is flawed - religion is a way of life, whereas medicine is a career/vocation. The less said about homophobia the better.


  • #18
    Syth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,865 ✭✭✭Syth


    The analogy is flawed - religion is a way of life, whereas medicine is a career/vocation
    Being of a certain religion influences your life, so does being a doctor (but in different ways), so in a way being a doctor is a way of life.

    If a set of parents try to bring their child up as liking Coke or Pepsi, then they are encroaching on their children's life, if they try to get them to be a doctor, they are encroaching more, if they try to get their child to be a Catholic, they are encraoching even more. Parent's are going to have some impact on thier children's life. Most people would think that a parent who forces their children to a doctor are going too far, but forcing children to be Catholic is going even farther. So people who think parents forcing their children to be doctors are going too far should also think that parents forcing their children into Catholics (or any religion) are going too far.
    It's not like he's being told whether to like Coke or Pepsi
    No, he's being told not to like divorce, abortion. To like the Catholic Church, the pope, the local priest. He's being told lots of things. I'd rather a family told their child to like Coke/Pepsi as opposed to liking a certain religion. It's less intrusive.
    parents have a right to give their children the sort of education they consider best
    Does that apply to all kinds of education that some parents consider best? What about a family that thinks women are subservient to women, and teach their sons that it's OK to hit your wife, or a racist family who brings their children up to hate blacks/whites/english/jews/muslims/westerners/irish/prodestants/catholics/etc?

    The real question is how much control parents should have over their children? What important life decisions should parents be able to make for their child(ren)?


  • #19
    rde
    Closed Accounts Posts: 97 ✭✭rde


    I'd rather a family told their child to like Coke/Pepsi as opposed to liking a certain religion

    It's not a question of liking a religion; that's my whole point. If you're a Catholic, that doesn't mean you prefer Mass, but if the church is closed you'll nip round to the buddhist temple. If you're a Catholic, you believe that the commandments must be followed, and you believe - you know - that the children will be brought up a Catholic. The question doesn't even arise.

    Let's look at what it is you're demanding. A four-year-old asks here Catholic mommy one of the great existential questions, I dunno, where do we go when we die, or something. How would you like mommy to respond? After all, Mommy knows that if we're good, we go to heaven. Should she also point out that it's also possible she'll be reincarnated as a walrus?
    What about a family that thinks women are subservient to women
    If children are being taught things that will cause them to break the law or suffer serious disabilities in normal social interaction, then there is certainly a case for intervention. But irrespective of your opinion of the church, we're extremely unlikely to see the day when being religious disqualifies you from being a parent.
    What important life decisions should parents be able to make for their child(ren)?
    Whether you like it or not, a lot of these decisions are going to have to be made during a sprog's upbringing; "you can wonder about that when your older" is simply not an adequate response. There are two options as to who would make those decisions; the parents or the state. And if you think the state should be making them, you're insane.


  • #20
    Yoda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭Yoda


    Baptism per se is just a water-ritual. It isn't magic, and it isn't science. It doesn't change the baptized one bit, certainly not an infant with pre-linguistic cognitive abilities.


  • #21
    article6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 610 ✭✭✭article6


    Originally posted by Syth
    Being of a certain religion influences your life, so does being a doctor (but in different ways), so in a way being a doctor is a way of life.

    I accept that, I should have been more specific. The goal of medicine is the curing of illness and the good health of the patient; the goal of religion is generally salvation of the human race, certainly in the Catholic context, and also in many others.

    In relation to your argument about wife-beating and hatred, assault is a crime and to condone this crime to children is child abuse, whereas I'm not sure about hatred. Disliking a group of people is not comparable to disliking an action (such as abortion), as long as you don't hate the people who do the action. And I believe an important phrase in Catholicism is "hate the sin, love the sinner". (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

    Originally posted by Syth
    forcing children to be Catholic is going even farther

    Many children have a different religion to their parents, or none at all, even when they have been indoctrinated from birth.


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  • #22
    The Brigadier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,549 ✭✭✭The Brigadier


    In the eyes of the catholic church, once you are baptised - there is no get out.

    You can never become an ex-catholic. (short of excommunication)

    You can be a lapsed catholic
    You can be a non practicing catholic...

    But once you are down...your not getting out...

    It's like the mafia without the fringe benefits:D


  • #23
    Yoda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭Yoda


    If you don't consider yourself to be a Catholic, who cares what the Church's authorities think about it?

    I was baptised a Presbyterian when I was an infant, and was confirmed an Episcopalian (i.e. Anglican Catholic) when I was 17. But since my mid-20s at least, I am a Buddhist.

    You are what you think you are.


  • #24
    chewy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭chewy


    this is the thing, i admit that i may have a bit of a chip on my shouder about it but i'd prefer to see the influenec of the catholic church diminisehed ass i don't think they deserve it

    therefore if i went to my local preist could i asked to be ex-communicated....

    when the slane parish priests said 90% of ireland was roman catholic, i thought i that can't be still right... but from a quick chekc of teh cso its seems right accoring to the 2002 census....

    i still think that incorrect, alot of us still live at home i really can't remember if i filled in the census form myself or my dad did it. i don't think he entere me a RC but he could have, infact lots of well meaning parents could have entered you as rc and it wouldn't be a true reflection of how people feel in ireland

    infact im not sure theres a choice between being a christian. (perhaps as someone who doesn't like organised religion but believes the christian god...)

    or roman catholic






    my brother made sure his daughter was baptised so she could get into the better catholic schools in britain


  • #25
    Yoda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭Yoda


    There's always the Dharma, Chewy. Check it out. No strings attached. Just some thinking about how to deal with life as it is.


  • #26
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,854 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    As a direct reply to the topic:

    Take the question for a moment from the perspective of the parents. Assuming they are devout Catholics, they are required to believe that baptism is a prerequisite for salvation. The possibility that the child could die unprepared for salvation is a risk that they should not be prepared to take.

    Remember, the official Catholic position is that salvation is not a right, it's a privilege.


  • #27
    martarg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 209 ✭✭martarg


    I think the question is pretty simple. One may not always like the way other people raise their children, but that is the way things are. You can take the chance to try and change the world through your own children when and if you have them :p ... The law is there to protect those children if "education" includes physical abuse on women, &c, &c. For the rest, it is a matter of personal freedom. If those children in their adult life decide not to be Catholics any more, they are also free to drop out. (Incidentally, I've just learnt that confirmation takes place at 12 in Ireland. In Spain we wait until 18, and that only after a two-year course. Too lazy to do that... :dunno: ) Now, if the Catholic Church has too much influence on areas they are not entitled to (and it is a good subject for discussion), to me it is a political rather than a religious issue, not much to do with baptism itself....


  • #28
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 18,046 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    Originally posted by chewy
    i still think that incorrect, alot of us still live at home i really can't remember if i filled in the census form myself or my dad did it. i don't think he entere me a RC but he could have, infact lots of well meaning parents could have entered you as rc and it wouldn't be a true reflection of how people feel in ireland

    infact im not sure theres a choice between being a christian. (perhaps as someone who doesn't like organised religion but believes the christian god...) or roman catholic
    Well I mean we can't expect it to put down all belief systems, can we? For the record, these are the ones that were on the Census form [here ]:
    1: Roman Catholic
    2: Church of Ireland
    3: Presbyterian
    4: Methodist
    5: Islam
    6: Other, write in your RELIGION

    Now the high majority of people have been placed into these religions, practicing or not they would still be seen as belonging to one of the churches (or no religion, which is also an option). I can understand your point, but from practical terms categorising the concept of "Christian", without belonging to an actual church, is problematic.


  • #29
    martarg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 209 ✭✭martarg


    Well I mean we can't expect it to put down all belief systems, can we? For the record, these are the ones that were on the Census form [here ]:
    1: Roman Catholic
    2: Church of Ireland
    3: Presbyterian
    4: Methodist
    5: Islam
    6: Other, write in your RELIGION


    That reminds me of official forms in the US, where you are expected to identify yourself as white, black, hispanic, &c, &c. Not everyone fits nicely in such narrow categories. In any case, I would imagine that the Irish census is not interested in your religious beliefs, but something closer to your ethnic background, so to speak. So perhaps if your family has traditionally been Catholic, you are considered as one, whatever your actual beliefs. Labels are an interesting issue....


  • #30
    Syth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,865 ✭✭✭Syth


    Mommy knows that if we're good, we go to heaven
    To the parent their religion is correct and right, and that's all there to it. But you (and the parent) must realise that there are other people and other faiths in the world. To be tolerent and accepting of other religions mean that you must see them as equal, but different, from your own. If one sees this, then one should realise that religious belief is relative, and that other people have different beliefs and different truths. One's children are people and are entitled to different religions. Talking to your children about religion and acting as if your religion is the only correct one, is like doing the same to other people. If one went around all day acting as if your religion was the only correct one, you'd be labeled as a bit of an idiot. Why not treat your children like other people? They have the freedom to religion.


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  • #31
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,208 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    To be honest, that's not going to happen with most Catholics. Catholics believe that other religions may be based on sound moral principles and that prophets such as Buddha etc. were worthy teachers, but that in the case of Christianity, God decided to actually announce his prescence - first to the Israelites, then in the form of Jesus Christ making Christianity the true religion. That's as close as you're going to get to tolerance while keeping within the teachings.

    My father filled out the census form in our house and I'm sure he would have simply entered the whole family as "Roman catholics" even though I don't consider myself a catholic.

    As for the Baptism thing, it's more for parents' piece of mind than anything I believe. In a time where infant death was quite common and the Church was teaching that unbaptised babies go to Limbo, it would have made sense for parents to get their children baptised as soon as possible. These days I think they should wait a little, like the way you wait before having your first holy wafer bread.


This discussion has been closed.
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