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Orange is the new Burke

1705706708710711715

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,594 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Has the DAP, as part of it's involvement in the EB v WHS row, made any move to remove EB from the Teachers Licence Register? It appears, according to the response to my query "Has the Irish department of education ever moved to cancel a teachers licence" that it can do so…

    High Court Confirmation: If a disciplinary panel decides to remove a teacher's name from the register, this sanction must be officially approved and confirmed by the High Court. [1].

    I see that the DAP is a Dept of Education section, not a part of the Teachers Council body helping to keep a distance between the Council and the DAP process.

    Separately to the EB v WHS row, In an upgrade to laws governing teachers employment here, the Education Minister, Helen McEntee, signed into law last October changes to the Teacher Council Registration Regulations to assist in keeping the numbers of teachers high, including allowing teachers with qualifications from abroad to be employed here as teachers.

    If the Dept of Education & Minister can make statute law changes on the teachers licences and linked employment of teachers system here, there should be a way of changing that system to prevent some-one like EB from setting out to deliberately disrupt the education of children on the false basis that an internal school rule change is an attack on his/her alleged constitutional religious freedoms.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 265 ✭✭BestWestern


    He is in prison as a consequence of his actions of disobeying a court order.

    How is that not a punishment?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,594 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    He is in prison because he has refused to purge his contempt of a high court order banning him from trespassing at WHS. His imprisonment would be done away with simply by him telling the court he will comply with its order not to trespass at WHS and stand by his word, thus ending his contempt of its order.

    He has NOT been given a fixed term of inprisonment equivalent to punishment, despite you choosing to conflate his inprisonment with punishment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 323 ✭✭Resplendent Moose


    Because it's for civil contempt, not criminal contempt, and the purpose is coercive, not punitive.

    But you already know this because you've already been told this, but yet you persist in the lie.

    So let's see. You're lying, you know you're lying, everybody knows you know you're lying, you know everybody knows you know you're lying, but yet you lie anyway. Odd that, isn't it?

    A personal invitation to dance, as Nero plays for the last time
    Tonight you will mix with the prophets without honour...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 335 ✭✭goldsparkle


    The process of his dismissal from the school took so long because of him dragging it out all the time but it went ahead last week. You would think since the formal dismissal be would purge his contempt but he won't. It shows that he will never respect what happened and he will always twist it around and misrepresent the situation and wrap it around trans ideology.

    His comprehension is brutal.

    I believed for quite some time that while he is in prison the judge should be ordering a psychiatric assessment on him because he really isn't right.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 265 ✭✭BestWestern


    "You're lying, you know you're lying,"

    Wow, interesting that you can read my mind. I mixed up coercive and punishment.

    Maybe you will find a way of forgiving me. Will thirty lashes do?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,205 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    He is also free to leave when he wants…so he is punishing himself with that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,961 ✭✭✭csirl


    The bar for losing Teaching Council regiatration is incredibly high - a classic example of self regulation = no regulation. Even being convicted of a serious criminal offence (which EB hasnt) is not sufficient in some cases.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,594 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Some one wrote the same a while back here to me so after looking at the fact that the Dept is overall in charge of the DAP procedure, I'm wondering who has been left in actual legislated charge of the registrer of teachers, the Dept or a quango? It would seem that EB has drawn attention to a situation of poor management of the disciplinary procedures governing teachers registration.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,974 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    You are conflating two separate issues. WHS BOM wanted to sack him from their school and they did, the DAP confirmed that the school BOM was correct in their view that his continued employment in their school was no longer appropriate

    You are talking about preventing his employment in any school which is quite a different thing. Not that any school would now touch him.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,974 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    There is not a chance Burke would succeed in claiming compensation. The one and only reason he remains in prison is his own pig-headedness.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,605 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    No reason to be there anymore,even by his own warped thinking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,364 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    His own warped thinking is the whole reason for him remaining there.

    Until agrees to abide by the court order to stay away from the school, he remains in contempt of court and therefore remains in prison.

    Given his return to besetting the school following previous periods of release I can't see why he should be released before purging his contempt.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,872 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    I think the better option would be to release him now that he's been officially fired, let him show up to the school again (because that's obviously what he'll do), and then arrest him and full-on criminally prosecute him with a defined prison sentence.

    If he's just in for contempt, they have to keep bringing him back to court, asking if he purges his contempt, dragging his family out when they shout at the Judge, bringing him back to prison… over and over.

    His reason for entering the school grounds was always that he was still technically an employee of the school and was there to teach. That is now over. Now if he enters the school grounds, it's trespassing. And even if they protest outside the gates, nobody gives a flying f*ck any more.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 46,244 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I think the better option would be to release him now that he's been officially fired, let him show up to the school again (because that's obviously what he'll do), and then arrest him and full-on criminally prosecute him with a defined prison sentence.

    Effectively letting him away with contempt of court and allowing him back out to continue his contempt?

    If he's just in for contempt, they have to keep bringing him back to court, asking if he purges his contempt, dragging his family out when they shout at the Judge, bringing him back to prison… over and over.

    He and his family are in it for the agitation. He will return to the school because it will scrape up media attention.

    His reason for entering the school grounds was always that he was still technically an employee of the school and was there to teach. That is now over. Now if he enters the school grounds, it's trespassing. And even if they protest outside the gates, nobody gives a flying f*ck any more.

    He was technically an employee until recently only because he kept appealing his appeals and then shouting nonsense about transgenderism in his usual hate-filled way so that his family's idiot followers will continue to sympathise with them (rather than acknowledge that the family are a bunch of hate-filled attention whores). He wants attention. He will do whatever it takes to get attention.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,872 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    "Effectively letting him away with contempt of court and allowing him back out to continue his contempt?"

    He hasn't been let away with it as he has been jailed. However it was based on him showing up to the school when ordered not to while the case about his suspension was being decided, and him continuing to do so because he was still employed by the school and his own words, was showing up for work. That's now over. As he has been told he has been offically fired, I would say continuing to imprison him for contempt serves little purpose. Instead, if he trespasses again given he's no longer an employee of the school, there's no contempt needed. He could be charged criminally (thereby greatly affecting his further ability to teach, travel and work).

    He's currently in prison until he purges his contempt, which means he currently decides if/when he gets to leave, and he's staying inside to be a martyr. Take that away from him. Release him, and make his choice about whether or not to undertake actions which would put himself back into prison, this time with actual criminal charges and a mandatory and defined sentence. No martyrdom involved, just criminality.

    "He and his family are in it for the agitation. He will return to the school because it will scrape up media attention.

    He was technically an employee until recently only because he kept appealing his appeals and then shouting nonsense about transgenderism in his usual hate-filled way so that his family's idiot followers will continue to sympathise with them (rather than acknowledge that the family are a bunch of hate-filled attention whores). He wants attention. He will do whatever it takes to get attention."

    The media attention about it has waned significantly, and now that the cases about his dismissal have been decided, they may get a bit of attention the first day or two if they protest outside the school (particularly once the new school year starts), but then very little, and at that point I believe they do more harm to themselves in the eyes of some of the public who may previously have supported Enoch because that media attention has only continued to show them up for the loons they are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,594 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    I admit that I would prefer that he and his family not be allowed to use his present choice of employment to impose their religious ethos, creed or whatever they choose to define it as, on other people using the description of teacher. At this moment in time, his name being officially listed on the register as a teacher provides him with a degree of legitimacy when to turn up at WHS claiming to be a teacher there, whatever about him besmirching the title of teacher itself for ulterior reasons.

    He, and his family, have been successful in conflating his being a teacher and being denied constitutional religious rights. WHS, being the school he and his family chose as their battleground, were unfortunate enough to have him employed there as a teacher. Having seen the way he and his family operate in furtherance of their religious ethos, I would be silly to think they would not continue to use his listing on the Teachers Council Registry for a purpose it is not intended for.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,961 ✭✭✭csirl


    The Teaching Council is a quango. Has a Board mainly made up of teachers representatives - hence my comment about self regulation = no regulation. Convenient way of the Dept of Education abdicating its responsibilities.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 46,244 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    He hasn't been let away with it as he has been jailed. However it was based on him showing up to the school when ordered not to while the case about his suspension was being decided, and him continuing to do so because he was still employed by the school and his own words, was showing up for work. That's now over. As he has been told he has been offically fired, I would say continuing to imprison him for contempt serves little purpose. Instead, if he trespasses again given he's no longer an employee of the school, there's no contempt needed. He could be charged criminally (thereby greatly affecting his further ability to teach, travel and work).

    He has not purged his contempt. If he is released from prison as you suggested, he still will not have purged his contempt for the court and in reality this is likely to further embolden him.

    He's currently in prison until he purges his contempt, which means he currently decides if/when he gets to leave, and he's staying inside to be a martyr. Take that away from him. Release him, and make his choice about whether or not to undertake actions which would put himself back into prison, this time with actual criminal charges and a mandatory and defined sentence. No martyrdom involved, just criminality.

    Exactly why should he be allowed to not have to purge his contempt for the court?

    The media attention about it has waned significantly, and now that the cases about his dismissal have been decided, they may get a bit of attention the first day or two if they protest outside the school (particularly once the new school year starts), but then very little, and at that point I believe they do more harm to themselves in the eyes of some of the public who may previously have supported Enoch because that media attention has only continued to show them up for the loons they are.

    The media attention has waned because there is currently nothing to report and Judge Cregan has blocked a lot of the messing that he and his family were able to perform previously. If they are given an opportunity to get their pantomime back in the media, they will for sure!

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,961 ✭✭✭csirl


    There are concerns that EB could highlight human rights issues with our contempt laws. Someone could potentially spend decades in jail on a relatively minor issue with no hope of release.

    With criminal sentences, the sentenced individual does not need to agree with the sentence - they will still be released even if they do not agree with the Judge. They also dont have to give assurances that they wont repeat the crime as a condition of release.

    Contempt, which is not even a criminal matter requires the person to agree with the Judge.

    The issue is whether someone should be given a defined sentence for contempt (and potentially be given another sentence if they dont abide by the court order post release).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,872 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    "Exactly why should he be allowed to not have to purge his contempt for the court?"

    Because imprisonment for contempt of court is meant to be a coercive measure rather than punitive. You imprison them to try to coerce them to agree to obey the courts rulings rather than being imprisoned. But that's not going to happen as Burke is acting the martyr.

    So take that away from him, by releasing him on the basis that the matter of his employment is now settled. If he trespasses at the school again, imprison him for committing a criminal act. A defined sentence of X amount of time. No more acting the martyr, just being a criminal.

    That would be worse for him rather than being in prison for contempt of court, because he cannot claim victimhood over it. Not only that, but criminal charges will have a much bigger impact on his job and travel.

    Add to that the basis of his contempt charge was not staying away from the school as ordered, and his main reasoning for that was his employment. That's now over. Now he'll just be a loon trying to get into a school he has no business being in.

    I had zero issue with him being in prison while the case about his employment rolled on. The real failing in that was how long that took. But that's now over. He's not going to purge his contempt though. So I say let him out, and if he trespasses on school property again it is much simpler to just prosecute and imprison him for that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,974 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    At this moment in time, his name being officially listed on the register as a teacher provides him with a degree of legitimacy when to turn up at WHS claiming to be a teacher there

    It really doesn't, any more than it would if he turned up at some random school he'd never been employed in.

    He, and his family, have been successful in conflating his being a teacher and being denied constitutional religious rights.

    They have been completely unsuccessful in these attempts.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 46,244 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    So, again, you think he should not have to purge his contempt.
    That he is no longer employed by the school is somewhat irrelevant. He was given and order by the court and not only ignored it but managed to make a pantomime out of it to the point of even wandering the corridors of the school. Burke knew that he could hold his daft protest outside the school gates yet persisted in his lies that he was entitled to enter the school grounds.
    Why should his contempt for the court instruction now not need to be purged when the evidence suggests that he will continue to ignore any instructions to stay away?

    As for his sacking - he was sacked ages ago. He just kept appealing it. These appeals eventually failed (or at least the ones he bothered appealing!).

    I would also point out that Burke was also compelled to provide the court with full details of his finances because he has "something to hide" and still has large fines outstanding. According to Judge Cregan, Burke's "lies are the truth and everything everyone else says is lies". Burke, in my view, continues to show the court his contempt for it. IMO Burke has shown absolute disrespect to the court. He is someone that the judge described as a danger to students and teachers (sure his dismissal involves aggressive behaviour towards his principal).
    His contempt absolutely needs to be purged!

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,594 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    I humbly suggest that, where WHS is concerned, he and his family would disagree with you on those points.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,441 ✭✭✭mountain


    unfortunately, given his and his family’s refusal to accept that he is wrong, there is a good chance that he will turn up at the school again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,443 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    It's guaranteed in my view. He is still saying he is an employee from what I saw, as mental as that is. Looks like this is the stupid hill he will literally die on, like some sort of martyr for religious idiots.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,202 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    He is there to coerce him into following the civil court order. If he was to be imprisoned for “punishment”, that would require a criminal court case and conviction.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,872 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    "Why should his contempt for the court instruction now not need to be purged when the evidence suggests that he will continue to ignore any instructions to stay away?"

    Asked if he was willing to purge his contempt, Mr Burke, appearing via video-link, noted that the reasons for his imprisonment are currently before the CoA.

    He repeated his position that he did not believe he should be in prison, claiming the principal's instruction to use a student’s preferred pronouns had no standing in law.

    He submitted that the position of the Department of Education is that schools cannot be compelled to use a pupil’s preferred pronouns.

    “I shouldn’t be in prison, I should be in my classroom, I should be with my students,” he said.

    Mr Burke also stated that a third disciplinary appeals panel convened to hear his challenge to his dismissal from the school had “crashed”, submitting that he was removed from a panel hearing two weeks ago when he objected to the presence of lawyers for the school’s board of management.

    He submitted that the “Dap and board of management can not allow a fair hearing in this matter”. “The process is rotten at its core,” he stated.

    When the judge repeated his question asking if he would purge his contempt, Mr Burke said he had “faithfully attended” his workplace for eight years, and that this was not trespassing.

    The judge said Enoch Burke was in breach of Mr Justice Owen's order, and as of today, it was a valid and lawful order of the High Court.

    The judge said it was clear that Mr Burke did not wish to purge his contempt, and adjourned the matter for four weeks. The judge said it was open to Enoch Burke to purge his contempt at any time.

    Again, Burke's position is that the matter of his employment was still under appeal, and he attended the school as it was his workplace. That is clearly and legally not the case any more, even if Burke still disagrees with it. Any ambiguity over whether Burke has any right to be on school property is now gone; he does not.

    As much as he should purge his contempt of court, that is not going to happen. So again, given that the matter of his employment is now resolved, he no longer has an arguable reason to be at the school. The court can't just keep his contempt of court open indefinitely. What they should do is release him from it on the basis that going back to the school would now constitute criminal trespassing, and he could be criminally prosecuted for it just like anyone else would.

    He likely will, so sentence him for that for however long is warranted, and let the prick rot.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,202 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    There are a number of flaws here including that he can lodge an appeal to the WRC one of the remedies of which is reinstatement or reengagement. He’s still cling to his belief that he remains an employee. As regards criminal trespass, even if his actions amounted to that, he would get bail and any penalty could not be likely to be a long term of imprisonment, ie he will continue to present himself “for work”.

    It’s a classic catch 22, a problem with no solution because he is not seeking a solution.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,594 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Now that the DAP has found that he was fired by WHS and is no longer employed by WHS, EB should [according to what google said in answer to my question "If you are an unemployed teacher in Ireland but are on the Teachers Council Register does the Dept of Education have to pay you a salary?"] NOT BE IN RECEIPT OF TEACHERS SALARY from that Dept.

    The next thing is that probably ends the seizure of any Govt payment to him as a teacher in part payment of his court fines, whatever about what he owes WHS and any others in legal costs over the past few years of court hearings.



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