Ireland vs Israel - To play or not to play, that is the question Read OP for Mod Warning

The Palestinian state did not commit genocide. Israel illegally attacked Iran in an act of war. Israel is committing Genocide against the Palestinians. The Israeli OM is wanted in The Hague for War Crimes (just like Putin)

FIFA would be right to ban Israel using exactly the same principles as they did for Russia.

But I'm sure your reply will be yet another defence of Israel not being banned because "it's not the same".

It's exactly the same - warmongering states exterminating civilians.

Selective outrage won't cut the mustard.

You clearly do not know what genocide is (or acts of genocide).

The IDF massacred scores of Israelis on that day.

Israel have annexed over 60% of Gaza and are landgrabbing even more as I type.

Israel & US illegally attacked Iran in the midst of negotiations.

Saying Israel aren't saints is like saying the Nazis weren't saints.

You're tying yourself in knots trying to defend the indefensible. And approving of FIFA's double standards.

My main sport is in the athletics family. I want to see Russia banned from all WADA-regulated sports for their state-organised doping programme. I've put my money where my mouth is and voted for individual Russian athletes to participate in a World Championship, but under a neutral flag. Precisely so that the individuals don't pay for the sins of others. My attitude to FIFA's ban would be similar. Keep Russia banned until we can fully trust them from an anti-doping perspective. So not at all related to the Israel situation. (Personally, I'd like to see the same thing happen to Kenya as with Russia, for similar reasons).

You were asking my views on something which belongs in another thread. You can ask there the next time I post there if you want. I would ask that you move to a higher level of debate, though. If this were football analysis, your question would be at about the level of "Do you want to see Ireland win". Alternatively, you could just pay attention when I post, and then you would have a better knowledge of my views.

So you think genocide should be a crime which carries collective responsibilty then? Do you have a list of crimes for which an entire nation is held reponsible, and not the individuals committing the crime? Or is it only the ones that the Israeli government is committing?

Have you heard of the Nuremberg Trials? Do you know who was put on trial and convicted of the war crimes, including genocide, that were tried there? Was it the entire German Nation? Was it even the entire Wehrmacht? Was it all German Sports representitives, or any for that matter?

Do you have any examples of any sports teams being convicted of genocide because individuals in their government committed genocide?

It's a pity you've chosen to go off down the route of Israelis needing to be collectively punished when your original point was so good :

The crimes of a few do not equate to a nationality.

Would you condemn the entire Irish population based on crimes committed by Irish people abroad?

Nuremberg reflected that pretty well. Your current determination that all Israelis should be collectively unfortunately doesn't.

No, that's not quite what I'm saying.

I'm saying that I personally have been advocating for Russia to be banned for their state-organised doping programmes (which they were, but not because of me obviously!). I personally don't think that they have done to merit having that ban lifted.

But I am sympathetic to individual Russian athletes who are not responsible for the actions of their government and governing bodies, so I have voted for individual Russian athletes to be allowed to compete, but under a neutral flag, not representing Russia. IMO the same should apply to Kenya, due to their ridiculously ineffective anti-doping authority. But this is all sports related entirely.

So what that all leads around to is me giving you an honest answer that I am in favour of Russia being banned, but for sports-related reasons (anti-doping) and not political ones, not criminal ones. I'm not in favour of banning people from sports because they have committed crimes. The criminal justice systems should be dealing with that.

As I have said many times, I'm all in favour of anyone who has committed crimes (or more accurately alleged to have committed crimes) being arrested and tried for those crimes. I 100% support that. It's got nothing to do with collective punishment of a sports team, though. It takes much more work, but the right people will ultimately be held to account. That's what I'm in favour of. REAL justice.

I'll try to be crystal clear here… I would like to see everyone accused of war crimes be arrested and tried for those crimes, no matter who they are what their nationality is. If it's members of the Israeli cabinet, then even better as far as I'm concened, as anything that (legally) gets them out of government is a good thing, as far as I'm concerned from my preferences WRT Israeli politics.

So if members of the Israeli soccer team have committed war crimes, then the above applies. Arrest them. put them on trial. If they haven't, then they are not guilty of war crimes, by definition. And I'm not in favour of collectively punishing innocent people for the crimes of others.

Seems you've forgotten you were caught lying about no Israeli athletes (including footballers) serving in IDF combat units.

So, following the logic, do you believe that the Israeli football team should play under a neutral flag?

No, because they haven't been banned for any sports-related reasons (or any reasons). And I'm not aware of any sports-related reason why they should be banned. Israel does not have a notable history of their teams or their athletes systematically cheating (unlike Russia, and arguably Kenya).

As for not being in favour of those who commit crimes being punished in
the sporting arena, what's your take on the Israeli football players who
served in IDF combat units? They should be allowed to play unless they
have been convicted of war crimes?

Of course. If they haven't even been charged with any crimes, then there is no reason that they should not play. Now if they (as individuals) were sputiing off hate speech like "gas the arabs" or similar, then I'd like to see them held responsible for that, at minimum under sports rules, or even better under criminal law. But that would be holding individuals to account for their own unlawful actions. AFAIK, being a current or past member of the military is not illegal under sports or criminal laws. Correct me if I'm wrong.

And before you answer that, recall that the five IDF soldiers who
sodomised a prisoner simply walked away - not even prosecuted. If any of
them was a football player, you saying you'd be ok with them playing?

I'd like to see those soldiers tried under proper civil law. And if an international case could be brought against them, then I'd be fully supportive of that too. So IF they were on the Israeli football team (which I'll take a wild guess that they're not), I'd be happy to see them arrested at the airport and subsequently put on trial. All much more relevant and effective than punishing entirely innocent football players.

Good grief PJ - are you suggesting I fantasise about sodomy?

I mentioned those two athletes to prove you lied about Israeli athletes in the IDF not being in combat units. The two I mentioned are two football players. I never said either of them sodomised anyone though.

Glad you looked them up to educate yourself.