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How many of us think that unification is no longer a priority and don't really want unification ?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,858 ✭✭✭standardg60


    So approaching 30 years since it was a failed state..yet some still want to classify it as such, despite their beloved being a part of government!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Neither side wants to ‘standalone’

    This is apparent since partition. How much clearer that needs to be escapes me.
    The DUP won’t allow closer economic union with the south, on which the best of both world’s future depends.

    Therefore the benefits are minimal which is why the public confidence is waning.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,217 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    I'm not convinced it's taken much of a kick on from that failed state status bar the obvious. Shinners couldn't run a bath, the DUP's logic seems to be, 'if the taigs don't like it, we do'.....for me, we're into the sunk cost fallacy trying to make it work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,968 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    It's a failed state with the potential to turn our state into a failed state too.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    We have that ability ourselves, almost managing it very recently indeed.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,858 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Oh I totally agree, neither of the two most popular parties have NI at the heart of their interests, which is a rather bizarre thing to say for a democracy.

    It is a change away from this adversarial approach, a bit like our own civil war politics which have been consigned to history, that needs to happen first. A UI is inevitable really, but talk of it happening in the foreseeable is premature imo.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Problem is, partition has prevented this from the start. NI never worked for it's people as a result. And it never will.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    SDLP's current thinking:

    “We have little to no control over decisions made in Britain whether you are a nationalist or a unionist … in 2016 we voted to remain in the European Union, we were dragged out against our will by votes that took place on the other island.

    “My party wants full membership, back in Europe for the people of this region with all the opportunities and benefits.

    “I do not want to live in a country run by Nigel Farage, that’s not to do with the colour of my passport, I simply don’t want to live in a country governed by that charlatan, and people here of all backgrounds, including those who are not nationalists, they don’t want to live in a country run by Nigel Farage either.”

    Mr O’Toole said for those living in Northern Ireland who want a new future back in the EU, the only way to make that choice is to “opt for a new Ireland back inside Europe”.

    Irish unity is not inevitable but it is more possible now than at any stage before so the British Government should take its head out of the sand and accept that the status quo has failed

    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/a-new-ireland-is-an-alternative-to-a-reform-led-uk-stormont-opposition/a/152022847.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,858 ✭✭✭standardg60


    The two biggest accelerators towards a UI are Brexit and the prospect of a mini me Trump coming to power, who knew that loyalism advocating for isolationism was a self-defeating exercise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭daithi7


    so this means that Brexit, it's supporters, Nigel Farrage & the Shinners all want the same thing.

    Go figure hey!? Not surprising in some ways as they're all loons!!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,071 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    And all without a plan on how to do the thing they want to do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The responsibility/onus/even constitutional imperative is on those who will be proposing a UI to 'plan' for it - that is the Irish government NOT a single political party, even if they are in power.

    Just as it won't be down to the DUP to make the case for remaining in the UK.

    I.E. Even if SF are the governing party, a 'plan' will not just emanate from them, but will be the result of consultation with all political voices and stakeholders and indeed citizens themselves. A government is the only entity capable of producing a plan.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭daithi7


    Yeah but that's not really how it works Francie is it?

    In any well run democracy, a party whose fundamental mission was previously to dismantle the Irish state, using terrorism, gangsterism &/or politics, and now apparently just wish to amalgamate the ROI at all costs with a state in the UK, that has 70% civil servants & a heavily subsidised & backwards economy, and a load of socio economic scar tissue right through it's society, should have a detailed, costed & well researched amalgamation plan & risk analysis as a bare minimum. .

    Otherwise this pining & pestering for amalgamating the 2 states in Ireland is all just sentimental republican poppy cock, that's about as well founded as a unification plan written on the back of a blood stained hankie!!

    p.s. the fact is it just isn't feasible , which I suspect even the Shinners accept privately anongst themselves at this stage tbh.

    Post edited by daithi7 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    It will be an Irish government that will deliver a UI, whether SF are contributors to that or not.

    In your opinion it isn't feasible, you are entitled to that view and are welcome to campaign on it when the time comes.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,951 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    No it won't. It will be the people of NI at the instigation of a UK government that will deliver it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Well if we are going to be pedantic that is wrong.

    Both governments will deliver as per their joint commitments in the GFA - to give effect in their respective parliaments, to the wishes of the people, given concurrently, north and south.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    It is a well known phenomenon that consumer sentiment lags economic growth when things are getting better.

    The survey may just be an example of that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    Northern Ireland isn't a failed state.

    It is a state that has been failed by those parties who have been in the Executive since the GFA.

    Reform of Stormont is badly needed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,217 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    Whole heap of ignoring the 77 years before the GFA there, John. It isn't just a failed state, it was a failed premise from the get go. If you build a house on faulty foundations, you can't act surprised when it falls down.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Jaysus,
    The GFA only exists because it failed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,692 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    No.
    Nor do I think they’ll produce one given what they say.

    They cannot bring all the stakeholders together to begin formulating a plan. They have spoken on what they’d like to see in key areas though. But recognise that other views need to be discussed too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,071 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    They'd be too afraid to offend any of their supporters by showing they have the ability to compromise.

    Its why they don't have any plan on what to do for their #1 priority and why terminally online shinners won't dare to say anything on what the plan could be other than point fingers at others to tell them what the plan should be for the topic they never ever stop talking about.

    Like asking a WW1 historian for an opinion about Franz Ferdinand and them leaping out the window indignantly about it while shouting at everyone else to have an opinion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Why don’t you do what I do with any of the main parties. Google questions like this ‘what do SF want in a United Ireland health service? Or ‘ public service’ ’’anthems, flags etc change it to FF to see what they want or envisage etc.

    They have all outlined what their visions are.

    The ‘they are afraid of their supporters’ stuff is just lazy old rubbish tbh. Utter rubbish to be perfectly honest.

    I am not selling anyones plan for a UI on here and I’m not their spokesperson. If you have questions ask a member.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭daithi7


    yerra yeah. SF don't or won't publish a plan for a UI.

    That's probably cos such a plan would show a UI to be totally unfeasible, & could also alienate their own 'mob' by acknowledging the multiple & massive compromises that would have to be made to amalgamate the two states, and SF consider that both of those are likely to be unpopular & not worth the political risk. In short, Sinn Fein are a populist party, so they won't outline a plan to implement their primary political objective & their only real raison d'etre.

    That's truly pathetic!! Like pitifully pathetic tbh….

    p.s. SF: 'we want a UI, we want the ROI to pay for it, we want to impoverish the Irish people for 2 generations to attain this, we don't want to publish a plan to do this cos it might be unfeasible & unpopula , we… …..'

    People: 'Well how are ye going to do that?'

    SF 'Well we just think it's up to the government of the day to do that yada, yada, yada…..

    People: will you kindly just get lost!!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    p.s. SF: 'we want a UI, we want the ROI to pay for it, we want to impoverish the Irish people for 2 generations to attain this, we don't want to publish a plan to do this cos it might be unfeasible & unpopula , we

    Where have they said this?

    I'm sure their 'own mob' and most mobs would reject that.

    And where exactly have they been told 'to get lost'? The biggest and most voted for single political party on the island?

    As I said, if you want to find out what SF or any of the main parties envisage themselves for the key issues and institutions they have outlined this. Here is a couple of searches, loads of content there:

    what do Sinn Fein envisage for a health service in a United Ireland - Google Search

    what do Fianna Fail envisage for a health service in a United Ireland - Google Search

    what do Fine Gael envisage for a health service in a United Ireland - Google Search


    All the parties and citizens of Citizen Assemblies (probably) and stakeholders will feed their ideas into the construction of the Plan/White Paper the government will present to the people in the referendums.

    That is my understanding of what will happen.
    You can stay angry or do some research, up to you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    It is even more pathetic that their online supporters hide behind SF's reticence on the issue. Posters can't answer questions on taxation, social welfare, health, education, higher education etc.

    For example, student fees, currently £4,985 in the North (a Stormont decision which means SF agrees with it) and €2,500 in the South, but places are capped in the North, meaning students leave for the mainland in a brain drain every year, but SF and their supporters won't tell you what will happen in the event of a united Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Reticence?

    They are not going to present an overall plan.
    Again, if you want to know their thinking on education, research it.

    Students-report-BEARLA.pdf

    Plenty of other stuff out there too.

    And no, I am not going to try and sell it/defend it/ so make your own mind up on it.




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,987 ✭✭✭yagan


    One thing I never got is why FG tried so hard to court the PUL cohort in NI. It's pretty fruitless as if a Farage led GB government simply jettisoned NI without regard to the GFA democratic process then the PUL bloc are simply orphaned.

    Being averse to non partition is a political dead end, and at best all we'd end up with our version of a bible belt, not unlike in the Netherlands.

    I don't think FG will pick up the votes they think are theirs for the taking, as the religious conservatives are more likely to merge with the likes of Aontú. There were protestant mother and baby homes on the island too.



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