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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,376 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    The 7/12 narrowing in to cover their 10 is pretty standard in rugby though. Most 10's aren't defensive stalwarts like Sexton or Wilkinson were.

    There will always be an element of needing to look after your flyhalf. If we get to the stage where he can reliably make most tackles, even if they're soaks and we lose ground, that's fine. You can carry a 10 that you know will lose a few metres, provided he excels elsewhere, which he hasn't this season.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    All of that is perfectly fair, fitz. Lots of it I would agree with, some of it I wouldn't, but I think it's all fair. My point about Gleeson/Coombes wasn't at all aimed at you.

    The Crowley thing, I think you have the crux of a point there. But, by way of example, one poster on this thread suggested recently he had a "decent" 6 Nations.

    I'm not saying Crowley changed the course of our 6 Nations on his own or anything like that, but I think the above summarisation - generously - is miles from the reality. He was excellent against England and, in particular, Scotland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    It is, but not to the same extent, imo. It was particularly noticeably in the France game.

    And I stand by everything else I said about his physicality with regards soaking tackles and his poor reaction time / athleticism.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭typhoony


    Farrell is not going to suddenly pick Byrne ahead of Prendergast. As a coach he likes to give guys that he's previously had faith in 2nd, 3rd and 4th chances



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭typhoony


    He's had some disastrous moments in games over the last 12 months. Also his weaknesses in defence were there from the start maybe not glaringly obvious but they were there none the less. The Luke Fitzgerald commentary on Prendergast unfortunately isnt far off the mark and he probably voiced an opinion that other ex-pros in the media werent willing to go that far criticising one of their own



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  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 9,579 ✭✭✭fitz


    Yeah, saying Crowley was "decent" is very unfair. And I don't disagree that he was really good against England and Scotland, my point is that I think when he has less decision making to do, he tends to have better games. Prendergast is the same, imo. JGP taking the pressure off is a huge factor. And I'd also say that one of the things that impressed me during the 6N was Crowley having the maturity to NOT try to come up with moments of magic, but to just relentlessly be where he needed to be to do the simple things brilliantly. Restraint isn't an easy thing, and I hope Crowley continues to reduce those moments where he feels the need to force things, cause I think he's a much better player when he does. I'm not worried about him or Sam tbh, I think they'll both come good. Neither of them is turning into Sexton overnight though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 920 ✭✭✭HanShotFirst


    This is the thing

    His weakness in defence was always there.

    Cullen and Nienaber haven’t been able to address this in 2 years of coaching.

    If anything it’s getting worse.

    Why?

    This is the bigger question that needs to be asked.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,699 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    There's no way he can't, would be a frankly shocking decision to reward a lad who's been deservedly dropped from the matchday 23 for his club with an international call up. Bryne deserves selection and should be pushing Crowley hard for the starting spot.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,755 ✭✭✭ersatz


    This is bang on, and most of the discussion here reinforces it, or at least these points have been made here by several people for 2 years. The ideal was to have two tens at the required standard coming in the WC having learned a tough lesson in the last one. Reading the debate here as picking on Crowley because he's a muck savage from Munster is very selective and paranoid, which is the house style of several posters from all the provinces when it comes to their own players. I'm big Crowley fan, he was hard done by being dropped for SP, but his form was poor and I hoped Prendergast would do the business and we'd be set. Hasn't worked out for SP but, as expected, Crowley is a hard bastard and he sorted himself out and came back better than ever. That does not change the fact that Munster is very poorly run, has made several coaching selection errors over the last 15 years, hasn't efficiently addressed the development problem, appointed a sporting events marketing guy as CEO when a rugby development emphasis was required to rebuild the club, not the brand, etc. The rapeman stuff is the sorry end of season cluster f*ck thats been in the post.

    On whether Farrell will give SP another shot, he might. But on current evidence will he bring him on in the 1/4 final against SA or the ABs in the WC? That is what Farrell's decision will come down to. If he defends the way he has done this season, no chance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭typhoony


    The narrative that he was playing poorly is not accurate. So i get that he was poor enough against NZ in the 2024 AI's but he bounced back the following week against Argentina. Remember Frawley replaced him in the NZ gane and was even worse. Also i remember a URC game around December where he was excelllent. He was hard done by bejng dropped



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,576 ✭✭✭✭phog


    The, he played well is in relation to one aspect of the game, attack and even at times (for Ireland) our attack was poor.

    His peers and media were slow to pick up on his piss poor defence but thats probably because of his age at the time and hoping he'd improve. Like Fitz is making a living from discussing it now.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,942 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    And Frawley wasn't seen again for over a year, so I'm not sure what the point of that is.

    He wasn't hard done by being dropped. SP was just playing better at the time. Now he's not. It doesn’t have to be any more complicated than that.

    Hopefully SP comes back strong next year. Second season syndrome has a name for a reason. I remain far from convinced on HB but now is the time to be showing otherwise for him



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭typhoony


    Ask anyone 12 months ago would Harry Byrne be the starting 10 for Leinster in a years time not one person would agree. Do i think SP will make a comeback in the next 12 months highly unlikely, i happen to agree with Luke Fitgerald. The point about Frawley is that we were still in the game when he replaced Crowley, I'm not attributing the blame for the loss purely on that substitution just trying to point out even though Crowley had a couple of poor moments it's not like we were being heavily beaten when he was on the pitch



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,087 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    However Crowley was playing at the time, there's no way anyone was looking at him and thinking, yes, there is absolutely no need to look at any other out-half in this series, especially when his erstwhile back-up came on against NZ and had a shocker.

    Giving Prendergast a shot was a good call, and here's the rub. Prendergast played well. He justified his selection, and carried that into the 6N and people seem to have forgotten that.

    That the wheels came off for him in such spectacular fashion in February 2026 does not mean a decision in November 2024 was the wrong one, but that is what we seem to be arguing here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,576 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I think most posters want Ireland to have some depth, we saw how depending on an aging outhlaf cost us a RWC SF. However, some of the same people trying to say the decision to use Sam in so many of the games was correct and proved to be correct are the same posters who were talking about his ceiling rather than his ability to justify Sam getting that game time.

    The ceiling may well come to pass and Ireland will need him or someone else to compete with Jack but there's not denying that Sam has got a lot more caps than others with the same ability.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    However Crowley was playing at the time, there's no way anyone was looking at him and thinking, yes, there is absolutely no need to look at any other out-half in this series

    Given how we played in that NZ game, we weren't saying that about any player.

    Crowley was miles from the biggest issue. That's what people are arguing.

    But we know the types of reaction we've seen on here when people had suggested change was required.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,942 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Ask anyone 12 months ago would Harry Byrne be the starting 10 for Leinster in a years time not one person would agree. Do i think SP will make a comeback in the next 12 months highly unlikely

    You don't see the contradiction in these two things?

    I don't think we were beaten heavily while Crowley was on the pitch, but that NZ team was not good and he did not play well. Had he been playing well he wouldn't have been taken off at such a critical juncture (though that certainly backfired).

    I never said it was correct because of his ceiling (potentially said something along the lines of "if they are equal, you pick who you think has more growth potential"), I always maintained neither were great at the time but SP was, I thought, playing better. I am entirely open to the alternative viewpoint - it wasn't a slam dunk - what I am not open to is that selecting SP was somehow egregious.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I don't think we were beaten heavily while Crowley was on the pitch, but that NZ team was not good and he did not play well. Had he been playing well he wouldn't have been taken off at such a critical juncture (though that certainly backfired).

    If you're talking about the 2024 NZ game, which you seem to be, we were winning when Crowley left the pitch, iirc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,327 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Instead of wasting everyone’s time bringing him to SA in 2024 or Georgia and Portugal last year, Sam should have been put on a diet and weights program over the summer to fill out his 6’4 frame. I think a lot of his physicality issues boil down to the fact that he’s not physically built for pro rugby at the highest level. I mean, it’s obvious to look at him.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,942 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    We were yes. I didn't claim otherwise. But he was still pulled off for a reason (albeit it did not work out at all).

    That NZ team was not very good.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,942 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Bringing him to SA was quite obviously not a waste of time given he then came in and played well in the Autumn. And he obviously is under S&C programs.

    His issues seem far more mental than physical to me



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I was clarifying as I think it's fair to say "I don't think we were beaten heavily while Crowley was on the pitch" obviously reads quite differently to "we were winning when Crowley was on the pitch".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,087 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Yeah, Prendergast's first job is to get his head right.

    Like, we know he's an excellent kicker but he couldn't kick snow off a rope in the 6N. He didn't forget how to kick, just the voices in his head were telling him 20 different things.

    When Toulon got that try with him on the wing, you could see him changing his mind on what he wanted to do - I'll smash him into touch, no, I'll let him land and then hit him, no, maybe I can hold him up… oh crap he's gone.

    I don't know if we have a mental skills coach on the payroll but if we do, he needs to be meeting with SP a lot over the summer.

    There are still a lot of good things that SP can do better than any of the alternatives, he just needs to get himself into a position where we can actually put him on the pitch.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 841 ✭✭✭MangleBadger


    He seems to have a new kicking tee recently and has been much better off the tee.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,942 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I was responding directly to someone else who said that, but fair enough.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,942 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Excellent is probably slightly over egging it. But he is certainly better than he was showing earlier this year - and he does seem to have made a turnaround in that respect thankfully. The kicking heebeejeebies can be enough to knock a kicker off their game on their own.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,456 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Rugby Players Ireland Awards 2026, nominees:

    Men's XVs Players' Player of the Year:

    • Tadhg Beirne - Munster
    • Jamison Gibson Park - Leinster
    • Dan Sheehan - Leinster
    • Stuart McCloskey - Ulster

    Women's XVs Players' Player of the Year:

    • Eve Higgins - Leinster
    • Brittany Hogan - Sale Sharks
    • Cliodhna Moloney-McDonald - Exeter Chiefs

    Nevin Spence Men's XVs Young Player of the Year:

    • Billy Bohan - Connacht
    • Joshua Kenny - Leinster
    • Bryn Ward - Ulster

    Women's XVs Young Player of the Year:

    • Dannah O'Brien - Leinster
    • Robyn O'Connor - Leinster
    • Katie Whelan - Leinster

    Men's XVs Try of the Year:

    • Robert Baloucoune - for Ireland v Italy
    • Tommy O'Brien - for Ireland v Scotland
    • Dan Kelly - for Munster v Glasgow

    Women's XVs Try of the Year:

    • Eve Higgins - for Ireland v Japan
    • Robyn O'Connor - for Ireland v Italy
    • Beibhinn Parsons - for Ireland v Italy

    Women's 7s Players' Player of the Year:

    • Megan Burns - Leinster
    • Alanna McInerney - Munster
    • Robyn O'Connor - Leinster


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,942 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Assume Stu will take it but that seems like an odd list for the Men's award.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,456 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    It does seem highly influenced by a handful of good performances, but it was overall a strange enough season in Irish rugby.

    I think McCloskey is a good shout for the Mens award - he was Ireland's best and most consistent player in the 6N. I can't recall anyone particularly holding up their hand from the November series.

    If looking across the four provinces and asked to nominate 3 players for player of the season at each province (purely on provincial form), I would have gone for:

    • Leinster: Tom Clarkson, Tommy O'Brien, Jamison Gibson Park
    • Connacht: Sean Jansen, Cian Prendergast, Sam Gilbert
    • Munster: Alex Nankivell, Jack Crowley, John Hodnett
    • Ulster: Nathan Doak, Zac Ward, Nick Timoney

    On rationale:

    -at Leinster, the lack of continuity is very evident, and that makes it hard. Guys like Josh Kenny would be a shoe in for nomination early in the year, but he's had a disrupted last couple of months and misses out. Clarkson would win this for me, but I suspect it would go to TOB.

    -Connacht - Jansen has been a revelation, and Prendergast's performances in 2026 have been largely all superb. Gilbert will seem a strange inclusion, but his signing and the reliability of his kicking (85% success rate from 35 shots at goal in the URC) has to be been such a game changer this season for Connacht. At the start of this season and last season they lost too many games purely because of poor goalkicking.

    -Munster - Nankivell wasn't as good this year as previous, but he's still just so important. Played huge mins this season, and his stats for defender's beaten, line breaks, carries just leap off the page. Hodnett stood up in pivotal games, and Crowley is their most important player.

    -Ulster - plenty of options here I thought. Zac Ward had lots of ups and downs, and some poor days, but he also won games by himself on occasion. Timoney has been absolutely immense (again) this season, and Doak took a leap in his development. Doak would be my winner here.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭typhoony


    Even a year ago there was the unkown about SP even some hints of weaknesses in his game, retrospectively speaking it's clear now Harry Byrne and more so Crowley have a better solid foundation to their game, Selecting SP wasnt egregious but dropping Crowley was borderline nefarious.



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